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Breakdown In Civil Order

steve_bank

Contributor
Here in Seattle it gets worse by the day. There has been a homeless camp outside the county court house for may years. At one point an entrance was closed because of risk of assauly.

Murders have occurred in the camp. Recently a person from the camp tried to rape a courthouse worker in a bathroom.

Gun violence is rising. Apparently random shootings of cars on the highway.

The local county and city govt appears helpless and unable to make any hard decisions for fear of being labeled biased in any way.

Our apparent new district attorney elect says she wants to tare down the entire justice system.

Wat is it like where you live?

Do you feel safe looking forward?

Are you for traditional 'law and order' meaning police are there to prevent and pursue crime, or do you favor what is being called community policing or some form of it.

In Seattle community policing means letting communities and neighborhoods taking care of crime and drugs. No courts or criminal jounce except for extreme cases. No police except for special circumstances.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
\(\)What American right-wing authoritarians say they want:
Freedom

What American right-wing authoritarians say they don't want:
Lawlessness

What American right-wing authoritarians don't understand:
Irony

Freedom is when people who look and behave like me say "fuck your rules, you can't tell me how to live!"

Lawlessness is when people who don't look or behave like me say "fuck your rules, you can't tell me how to live!"

It's the American way!
 

untermensche

Contributor
How dare the refuge thrown out by capitalism and deemed to not be worthy of life disagree.

Capitalism: "Submit or die".

Capitalism is clearly a system that can't deal with many problems and a system that creates many problems, like corrupted governments.

We can easily do better.
 

Politesse

Sapere aude
The only thing I can agree with here is that civil order is severely impoeriled in this country. The unhomed population are not at all who I'm most worried about, and indeed I see them more as victims of increasing social violence than the cause. I do not approve of murders, obviously. But someone who evicts a family out onto the street has committed just as vicious a crime, and their crime was legal. Where do you you think the homeless come from? Arresting more people isn't going to change the fact that most Americans feel no responsibility for the wellbeing of their neighbor, and relish in, rather than abjuring, the suffering of whichever of their fellow-citizens they regard as their enemies.
 

prideandfall

Veteran Member
Are you for traditional 'law and order' meaning police are there to prevent and pursue crime, or do you favor what is being called community policing or some form of it.
neither.

i favor "if we're going to spend collective resources (ie money from taxes) on something, spend it on removing the circumstances that lead to crime in the first place instead of wasting it on punishing people for failing to adhere to a rigged system."

have a camp of homeless people somewhere? spend whatever money is required to build a new apartment complex, staff it with mental health and social service professionals and minimal security to assist with truly unhinged people, and then give every homeless person an apartment for free.
while you're at it, give them a reasonable monthly income while they live there along with job training and programs to assist in social functioning.

if it's expensive, cut the budget for 'street police' and patrol cops down to almost nothing and then expand your white collar and corporate crime investigations 10 fold and you'll be swimming in money, and have eliminated the homeless completely while you were at it.
 

prideandfall

Veteran Member
In Seattle community policing means letting communities and neighborhoods taking care of crime and drugs.
What does "take care" means? Vendettas?

Seattle already seems to be a pretty lawless place, and it is likely to get much worse.

Couple attacked, man killed while retrieving stolen items from Seattle homeless encampment
this is a fine example of something i have been saying for many, many years: the myth of the 'self made man' in america is just that, a myth.
if you have money, property, wealth, possessions, whatever... you don't have it because you earned it. you only have it because everyone else decided to let you have it.

there is a cabal of political and economic fascists in america who evidently are completely unaware of the existence of the french revolution.
if you shit on the lower class long enough, eventually the lower class will have a "let's chop everyone's heads off" parade.

if you want social stability and rule of law and to get to have your plasma TV and new car without fear of it being stolen or fear of you being attacked and murdered, stop funding police and the military and supporting austerity and get on vastly expanding social services... and do it fucking fast.

america is on a fast track to have its upper class be literally destroyed, which is an outcome i personally welcome but would entail an awful lot of whining from an awful lot of fucking pathetic dipshits that i'd be forced to listen to.
 

Tigers!

Veteran Member
Here in Seattle it gets worse by the day. There has been a homeless camp outside the county court house for may years. At one point an entrance was closed because of risk of assauly.

Murders have occurred in the camp. Recently a person from the camp tried to rape a courthouse worker in a bathroom.

Gun violence is rising. Apparently random shootings of cars on the highway.

The local county and city govt appears helpless and unable to make any hard decisions for fear of being labeled biased in any way.
Who will label them biased and in with which label?

Our apparent new district attorney elect says she wants to tare down the entire justice system.

Wat is it like where you live?

Do you feel safe looking forward?
Quote
Are you for traditional 'law and order' meaning police are there to prevent and pursue crime, or do you favor what is being called community policing or some form of it.

In Seattle community policing means letting communities and neighborhoods taking care of crime and drugs. No courts or criminal jounce except for extreme cases. No police except for special circumstances.
Is this community policing working the way it was expected or are there just 'teething' troubles?

Is Seattle to be considered a place to watch defund the police in action?
 

Tigers!

Veteran Member
Are you for traditional 'law and order' meaning police are there to prevent and pursue crime, or do you favor what is being called community policing or some form of it.
neither.

i favor "if we're going to spend collective resources (ie money from taxes) on something, spend it on removing the circumstances that lead to crime in the first place instead of wasting it on punishing people for failing to adhere to a rigged system."

have a camp of homeless people somewhere? spend whatever money is required to build a new apartment complex, staff it with mental health and social service professionals and minimal security to assist with truly unhinged people, and then give every homeless person an apartment for free.
while you're at it, give them a reasonable monthly income while they live there along with job training and programs to assist in social functioning.

if it's expensive, cut the budget for 'street police' and patrol cops down to almost nothing and then expand your white collar and corporate crime investigations 10 fold and you'll be swimming in money, and have eliminated the homeless completely while you were at it.

I am not certain how increasing the corporate crime investigations will eliminate random shootings? Perhaps you could elaborate?
 

funinspace

Veteran Member
Wat is it like where you live?

Do you feel safe looking forward?
I feel safe and I see this going forward. I grew up in the 1970's and early 1980's in a city in the SW. Murder and rapes were worse. I knew kids that were raped and murdered. US crime data backs up my perspective in general....
 

Harry Bosch

Contributor
Is Seattle to be considered a place to watch defund the police in action?

They've done the exact opposite of defunding the police; million of dollars were allocated toward researching "policing alternatives", and in the end few substantive policy changes have been retained. It was all smoke and no fire.

That's because defund the police dosn't work and will get you fired if you're an elected official. People want law and order, even in liberal cities like Seattle and Portland.
 

Politesse

Sapere aude
Is Seattle to be considered a place to watch defund the police in action?

They've done the exact opposite of defunding the police; million of dollars were allocated toward researching "policing alternatives", and in the end few substantive policy changes have been retained. It was all smoke and no fire.

That's because defund the police dosn't work and will get you fired if you're an elected official. People want law and order, even in liberal cities like Seattle and Portland.

That may well be true, but complaining that Seattle somehow demonstrates the failure of an approach that was never, in fact, seriously employed there is not an accuracy-based approach.
 

Trausti

Contributor
That's because defund the police dosn't work and will get you fired if you're an elected official. People want law and order, even in liberal cities like Seattle and Portland.

That may well be true, but complaining that Seattle somehow demonstrates the failure of an approach that was never, in fact, seriously employed there is not an accuracy-based approach.

The police were already understaffed in Seattle when the defund movement started. Indeed, the political discussion in early 2020 was about how to hire more police. After May the police were villainized and staffing has plunged further.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Are you for traditional 'law and order' meaning police are there to prevent and pursue crime, or do you favor what is being called community policing or some form of it.
neither.

i favor "if we're going to spend collective resources (ie money from taxes) on something, spend it on removing the circumstances that lead to crime in the first place instead of wasting it on punishing people for failing to adhere to a rigged system."

have a camp of homeless people somewhere? spend whatever money is required to build a new apartment complex, staff it with mental health and social service professionals and minimal security to assist with truly unhinged people, and then give every homeless person an apartment for free.
while you're at it, give them a reasonable monthly income while they live there along with job training and programs to assist in social functioning.

if it's expensive, cut the budget for 'street police' and patrol cops down to almost nothing and then expand your white collar and corporate crime investigations 10 fold and you'll be swimming in money, and have eliminated the homeless completely while you were at it.

I am not certain how increasing the corporate crime investigations will eliminate random shootings? Perhaps you could elaborate?

I am not certain why you consider that a necessary goal for alternatives to old fashioned policing, given that old fashioned policing has demonstrably failed to achieve that goal.

If at first you don't succeed, try something else.

The heavy handed authoritarian approach is obviously not working, so attempting an alternative is surely worthy of at least sufficient respect not to be branded a failure for not hitting a target that the current approach also cannot hit.
 

Trausti

Contributor
I am not certain how increasing the corporate crime investigations will eliminate random shootings? Perhaps you could elaborate?

I am not certain why you consider that a necessary goal for alternatives to old fashioned policing, given that old fashioned policing has demonstrably failed to achieve that goal.

If at first you don't succeed, try something else.

The heavy handed authoritarian approach is obviously not working, so attempting an alternative is surely worthy of at least sufficient respect not to be branded a failure for not hitting a target that the current approach also cannot hit.

Ah, old-fashioned policing works just fine. See New York City 1994 - 2013.
 

TomC

Veteran Member
have a camp of homeless people somewhere? spend whatever money is required to build a new apartment complex, staff it with mental health and social service professionals and minimal security to assist with truly unhinged people, and then give every homeless person an apartment for free.

Google Cabrini-Green for an historical lesson in providing subsidized housing for the poor without tough policing.
Tom
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Are you for traditional 'law and order' meaning police are there to prevent and pursue crime, or do you favor what is being called community policing or some form of it.
neither.

i favor "if we're going to spend collective resources (ie money from taxes) on something, spend it on removing the circumstances that lead to crime in the first place instead of wasting it on punishing people for failing to adhere to a rigged system."

have a camp of homeless people somewhere? spend whatever money is required to build a new apartment complex, staff it with mental health and social service professionals and minimal security to assist with truly unhinged people, and then give every homeless person an apartment for free.
while you're at it, give them a reasonable monthly income while they live there along with job training and programs to assist in social functioning.

Providing housing works well for the economically homeless. Providing housing works very poorly for the mentally ill homeless. Most of the homeless are mentally ill.

if it's expensive, cut the budget for 'street police' and patrol cops down to almost nothing and then expand your white collar and corporate crime investigations 10 fold and you'll be swimming in money, and have eliminated the homeless completely while you were at it.

In other words, legalize most crime. Not a country I would like to live in.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
In Seattle community policing means letting communities and neighborhoods taking care of crime and drugs.
What does "take care" means? Vendettas?

Seattle already seems to be a pretty lawless place, and it is likely to get much worse.

Couple attacked, man killed while retrieving stolen items from Seattle homeless encampment
this is a fine example of something i have been saying for many, many years: the myth of the 'self made man' in america is just that, a myth.
if you have money, property, wealth, possessions, whatever... you don't have it because you earned it. you only have it because everyone else decided to let you have it.

there is a cabal of political and economic fascists in america who evidently are completely unaware of the existence of the french revolution.
if you shit on the lower class long enough, eventually the lower class will have a "let's chop everyone's heads off" parade.

if you want social stability and rule of law and to get to have your plasma TV and new car without fear of it being stolen or fear of you being attacked and murdered, stop funding police and the military and supporting austerity and get on vastly expanding social services... and do it fucking fast.

america is on a fast track to have its upper class be literally destroyed, which is an outcome i personally welcome but would entail an awful lot of whining from an awful lot of fucking pathetic dipshits that i'd be forced to listen to.

It sounds like you're defending the people in the homeless encampment.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
this is a fine example of something i have been saying for many, many years: the myth of the 'self made man' in america is just that, a myth.
if you have money, property, wealth, possessions, whatever... you don't have it because you earned it. you only have it because everyone else decided to let you have it.

there is a cabal of political and economic fascists in america who evidently are completely unaware of the existence of the french revolution.
if you shit on the lower class long enough, eventually the lower class will have a "let's chop everyone's heads off" parade.

if you want social stability and rule of law and to get to have your plasma TV and new car without fear of it being stolen or fear of you being attacked and murdered, stop funding police and the military and supporting austerity and get on vastly expanding social services... and do it fucking fast.

america is on a fast track to have its upper class be literally destroyed, which is an outcome i personally welcome but would entail an awful lot of whining from an awful lot of fucking pathetic dipshits that i'd be forced to listen to.

It sounds like you're defending the people in the homeless encampment.

The horror.

What kind of cruel and heartless monster would defend people in need?
 

TomC

Veteran Member
this is a fine example of something i have been saying for many, many years: the myth of the 'self made man' in america is just that, a myth.
if you have money, property, wealth, possessions, whatever... you don't have it because you earned it. you only have it because everyone else decided to let you have it.

there is a cabal of political and economic fascists in america who evidently are completely unaware of the existence of the french revolution.
if you shit on the lower class long enough, eventually the lower class will have a "let's chop everyone's heads off" parade.

if you want social stability and rule of law and to get to have your plasma TV and new car without fear of it being stolen or fear of you being attacked and murdered, stop funding police and the military and supporting austerity and get on vastly expanding social services... and do it fucking fast.

america is on a fast track to have its upper class be literally destroyed, which is an outcome i personally welcome but would entail an awful lot of whining from an awful lot of fucking pathetic dipshits that i'd be forced to listen to.

It sounds like you're defending the people in the homeless encampment.

The horror.

What kind of cruel and heartless monster would defend people in need?

Maybe Australia is different.

But there is a huge difference between helping someone in need and feeding someone's illness.
Tom
 

Angry Floof

Tricksy Leftits
Staff member
this is a fine example of something i have been saying for many, many years: the myth of the 'self made man' in america is just that, a myth.
if you have money, property, wealth, possessions, whatever... you don't have it because you earned it. you only have it because everyone else decided to let you have it.

there is a cabal of political and economic fascists in america who evidently are completely unaware of the existence of the french revolution.
if you shit on the lower class long enough, eventually the lower class will have a "let's chop everyone's heads off" parade.

if you want social stability and rule of law and to get to have your plasma TV and new car without fear of it being stolen or fear of you being attacked and murdered, stop funding police and the military and supporting austerity and get on vastly expanding social services... and do it fucking fast.

america is on a fast track to have its upper class be literally destroyed, which is an outcome i personally welcome but would entail an awful lot of whining from an awful lot of fucking pathetic dipshits that i'd be forced to listen to.

It sounds like you're defending the people in the homeless encampment.

The horror.

What kind of cruel and heartless monster would defend people in need?

Right wingers and Christians in the US (virtually indistinguishable, but #notall, you know) think they are the judges of everyone in society. They truly believe that their world view is morally superior and their inhumane, stunted view of humanness should be the guiding morality for everyone. Some highlights of this world view: If you're poor, it's because you're lazy, not because of an economic system that increases poverty and punishes the poor. If you're suffering from addiction, that's a moral issue and not a health issue, and so giving you help is enabling your sinful behavior and there is no question about whether that backward, inhumane, ignorant belief that judging and condemning people is an appropriate and effective solution and not, in fact, a driving factor in addiction. Etc, etc.
 

Trausti

Contributor
The horror.

What kind of cruel and heartless monster would defend people in need?

Maybe Australia is different.

But there is a huge difference between helping someone in need and feeding someone's illness.
Tom

Seattle and King county spend about $100k per homeless person. What interest is there in actually solving the problem with money like that?
 

TomC

Veteran Member
The horror.

What kind of cruel and heartless monster would defend people in need?

Maybe Australia is different.

But there is a huge difference between helping someone in need and feeding someone's illness.
Tom

Seattle and King county spend about $100k per homeless person. What interest is there in actually solving the problem with money like that?

What do they spend it on?
Mental health care might be a good start. But I don't actually believe that they spend anything remotely like that on all services to the homeless put together.

I'm guessing that you're quoting a rightwing news source with no credibility. That's just my guess.
Tom
 

scombrid

Senior Member
Break down in civil order here in Florida too. The governor issued an executive order stating that parents and not school boards should decide what public health measures their children should practice. Seems like just the right thing that parents should decide what their kids wear. Do away with dress codes and conduct codes and just let people do what they want. Reckon no authority should tell me how fast I should drive either. I should just drive whatever speeds is comfortable to me. I should also decide my personal optimal BAC.

We also passed a law that makes it legal to run over protestors. Funny thing is though. Protestors for a pet cause for our Florida GOP were blocking streets recently and they got police support. Police directed traffic around the protests and such and made no arrests for the felony of blocking public roadways. Nobody ran over any of the protestors either.
 

Angry Floof

Tricksy Leftits
Staff member
Break down in civil order here in Florida too. The governor issued an executive order stating that parents and not school boards should decide what public health measures their children should practice. Seems like just the right thing that parents should decide what their kids wear. Do away with dress codes and conduct codes and just let people do what they want. Reckon no authority should tell me how fast I should drive either. I should just drive whatever speeds is comfortable to me. I should also decide my personal optimal BAC.

We also passed a law that makes it legal to run over protestors. Funny thing is though. Protestors for a pet cause for our Florida GOP were blocking streets recently and they got police support. Police directed traffic around the protests and such and made no arrests for the felony of blocking public roadways. Nobody ran over any of the protestors either.

It's only a breakdown of civil order when poor and otherwise not-powerful, not-authority figure people do it. When authorities and law enforcement do it, it's law and order. That's why right wing authoritarians masturbate to police brutality videos.
 

ZiprHead

Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
Providing housing works well for the economically homeless. Providing housing works very poorly for the mentally ill homeless. Most of the homeless are mentally ill.

No, they're not.

PREVALENCE
According to the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, 20 to 25% of the homeless
population in the United States suffers from some form of severe mental illness. In comparison, only 6%
of Americans are severely mentally ill (National Institute of Mental Health, 2009). In a 2008 survey
performed by the U.S. Conference of Mayors, 25 cities were asked for the three largest causes of
homelessness in their communities. Mental illness was the third largest cause of homelessness for single
adults (mentioned by 48% of cities). For homeless families, mental illness was mentioned by 12% of
cities as one of the top 3 causes of homelessness.

https://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/Mental_Illness.pdf
 

prideandfall

Veteran Member
I am not certain how increasing the corporate crime investigations will eliminate random shootings? Perhaps you could elaborate?
ok so "random" shootings are going be down to one of four reasons:
1. accident or unintended
2. mentally ill and doesn't know what they're doing
3. psycho and don't care about the consequences
4. psycho and are specifically seeking the consequences

if you live in a large population and don't have some kind of eugenics program (and by that i mean either government mandated or socially and culturally enforced) then you're going to get a small number of social aberrations - ie, people who are not mentally equipped to function in society.
the truly mentally ill (including those unable to process reality and respond to it, and those with anti-social behaviors) are an astoundingly tiny fraction of the population genetically, and a somewhat higher percent of the population environmentally (ie the well established link between lead poisoning and behavior issues).

so, if the truly insane and unhinged and evil are a tiny fraction of your total population and not a significant contributor to "random" shootings (which is in fact the case), then "random" shootings are instead the result of external social and economic forces.
this is clearly and demonstrably the case in america, the overwhelmingly vast majority of crime is the result of pressure from our society, not from a mental break.
so, if you truly want to reduce crime, the best way to do that is to remove the circumstances which cause crime in the first place: economic woe, inescapable cultural pressures, and the general suffering of the human condition.
this is a vastly more effective way of reducing crime than is barbarically punishing those who fail within a system that is specifically designed to force them to fail.

the bit about corporate and white collar crime was simply an aside to provide a solution to the inevitable weeping certain predicable people will do over the cost of all this.
 

prideandfall

Veteran Member
Google Cabrini-Green for an historical lesson in providing subsidized housing for the poor without tough policing.
Tom
i am genuinely curious: do you really honestly think that sentence is even remotely legitimate or intellectually defensible?

because in context that is quite possibly one of the fucking stupidest things anyone has ever posted on this forum, and i can't tell if it was some kind of ironic sarcasm or if you actually support that statement.
 

prideandfall

Veteran Member
Providing housing works well for the economically homeless. Providing housing works very poorly for the mentally ill homeless. Most of the homeless are mentally ill.
demonstrably false.
i would suggest that you try actually researching something before commenting on it, but i've been watching post on these boards for 2 decades and i know a losing battle when i see one.
so let's have a contest of references:

https://nlchp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Homeless_Stats_Fact_Sheet.pdf

https://www.homelesshub.ca/about-homelessness/homelessness-101/causes-homelessness

https://nationalhomeless.org/about-homelessness/

i am finding estimates that about 15-20% of the homeless population in the US have mental health issues which are a significant contributing factor to their being homeless.
the overwhelmingly vast majority of the homeless are due to economics and systemic poverty.

In other words, legalize most crime. Not a country I would like to live in.
why not? you actively support legalizing most crime almost every day.

oh wait.... oh i see. it's not brutally punishing the crime that poor people do. ok yeah, that's your problem with it.
 

Trausti

Contributor
Providing housing works well for the economically homeless. Providing housing works very poorly for the mentally ill homeless. Most of the homeless are mentally ill.
demonstrably false.
i would suggest that you try actually researching something before commenting on it, but i've been watching post on these boards for 2 decades and i know a losing battle when i see one.
so let's have a contest of references:

https://nlchp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Homeless_Stats_Fact_Sheet.pdf

https://www.homelesshub.ca/about-homelessness/homelessness-101/causes-homelessness

https://nationalhomeless.org/about-homelessness/

i am finding estimates that about 15-20% of the homeless population in the US have mental health issues which are a significant contributing factor to their being homeless.
the overwhelmingly vast majority of the homeless are due to economics and systemic poverty.

In other words, legalize most crime. Not a country I would like to live in.
why not? you actively support legalizing most crime almost every day.

oh wait.... oh i see. it's not brutally punishing the crime that poor people do. ok yeah, that's your problem with it.

The city of Seattle has "Navigation Teams" whose job it is to go to homeless encampments and encourage those there to get services. But they don't accept.
 

Trausti

Contributor
Seattle and King county spend about $100k per homeless person. What interest is there in actually solving the problem with money like that?

What do they spend it on?
Mental health care might be a good start. But I don't actually believe that they spend anything remotely like that on all services to the homeless put together.

I'm guessing that you're quoting a rightwing news source with no credibility. That's just my guess.
Tom

https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/time-for-seattle-city-council-to-face-up-to-reality/
 

prideandfall

Veteran Member
The city of Seattle has "Navigation Teams" whose job it is to go to homeless encampments and encourage those there to get services. But they don't accept.
which doesn't entirely surprise me considering how god awful, invasive, and largely ineffective state social service agencies tend to be.

"here, submit to a background check and regular drug screening as well as adhering to a rigid and incredibly difficult to maintain schedule of visiting offices on opposite ends of town, and in exchange we'll make you go to a class where a 22 year old lectures you about the virtue of dedicating your life to capitalism and give you a voucher card you can use to redeem 3 hamburgers a week. that'll fix your situation"
 

Trausti

Contributor
Two lefties come upon a person who has just been robbed and beaten unconscious on the sidewalk. One lefty turns to the other and says: “We need to find who did this, and help them.”
 

Trausti

Contributor
The city of Seattle has "Navigation Teams" whose job it is to go to homeless encampments and encourage those there to get services. But they don't accept.
which doesn't entirely surprise me considering how god awful, invasive, and largely ineffective state social service agencies tend to be.

"here, submit to a background check and regular drug screening as well as adhering to a rigid and incredibly difficult to maintain schedule of visiting offices on opposite ends of town, and in exchange we'll make you go to a class where a 22 year old lectures you about the virtue of dedicating your life to capitalism and give you a voucher card you can use to redeem 3 hamburgers a week. that'll fix your situation"

So why should taxpayers foot the bill for a person who refuses to take personal responsibility for their life?
 

Politesse

Sapere aude
Two lefties come upon a person who has just been robbed and beaten unconscious on the sidewalk. One lefty turns to the other and says: “We need to find who did this, and help them.”

I would want to help both individuals, if possible. What would you do? Is your response different if the person on the sidewalk has no money with which to pay a medical bill?
 

Trausti

Contributor
Two lefties come upon a person who has just been robbed and beaten unconscious on the sidewalk. One lefty turns to the other and says: “We need to find who did this, and help them.”

I would want to help both individuals, if possible. What would you do? Is your response different if the person on the sidewalk has no money with which to pay a medical bill?

I’d want to help the victim; not coddle and make excuses for the perpetrator.
 

Politesse

Sapere aude
Two lefties come upon a person who has just been robbed and beaten unconscious on the sidewalk. One lefty turns to the other and says: “We need to find who did this, and help them.”

I would want to help both individuals, if possible. What would you do? Is your response different if the person on the sidewalk has no money with which to pay a medical bill?

I’d want to help the victim; not coddle and make excuses for the perpetrator.

How would you help the victim? And what would you do about the perpetrator?
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Two lefties come upon a person who has just been robbed and beaten unconscious on the sidewalk. One lefty turns to the other and says: “We need to find who did this, and help them.”

I would want to help both individuals, if possible. What would you do? Is your response different if the person on the sidewalk has no money with which to pay a medical bill?
Many conservatives get erections that require a doctor's assistance due to duration over the concept of prison time. They want people to suffer for the consequences of their actions (vaccine aside). That is why they scoff at the idea of rehabilitation. It isn't fun. It isn't justice to them. They'd rather "lock them away" and bear the expense instead of trying to get the person to be a viable member of society.
 

KeepTalking

Code Monkey
Here in Seattle it gets worse by the day. There has been a homeless camp outside the county court house for may years. At one point an entrance was closed because of risk of assauly.

Murders have occurred in the camp. Recently a person from the camp tried to rape a courthouse worker in a bathroom.

Gun violence is rising. Apparently random shootings of cars on the highway.

The local county and city govt appears helpless and unable to make any hard decisions for fear of being labeled biased in any way.

Our apparent new district attorney elect says she wants to tare down the entire justice system.

Wat is it like where you live?

Dogs and cats living in sin openly, here in Bellevegas, so basically no civil order left.

Murders were up in the first quarter of the year, mostly shootings, but we can't possibly do anything to curb gun violence, so nothing to do about that. It is my understanding that most other crime was down, with the exception of domestic violence. It also seems that the murder rate has more recently been leveling off. I would like to chalk it all up to the pandemic, but what the fuck do I know? Looking out my window, the current crop of neighbors are closer than this block has been in years, Trump-hating liberals, Trump-following conservatives, whites and minorities, all getting along and sharing food.

I thought the breakdown of civil order would involve something more dramatic, like zombies, or at the very least gangs ruling the streets in matching costumes, but it looks like I might be disappointed. Seems like it is going to be more BBQ, couples walking hand in hand down the street, and kids riding bicycles.

Do you feel safe looking forward?

As safe as I feel looking back. Of course I was robbed at gunpoint in the 80's, so maybe I feel even safer than when looking back.

Are you for traditional 'law and order' meaning police are there to prevent and pursue crime, or do you favor what is being called community policing or some form of it.

I think there is merit to both approaches. I think the police certainly should prevent crime and catch criminals, but I think there are a lot of crimes on the books that shouldn't be there.

I also think that some police departments are becoming far too militarized, and that some money currently budgeted to perpetuating that might be better used in other community service programs.

In Seattle community policing means letting communities and neighborhoods taking care of crime and drugs. No courts or criminal jounce except for extreme cases. No police except for special circumstances.

It sound like a horrible place, you should leave immediately. Don't come here.
 

Tigers!

Veteran Member
Two lefties come upon a person who has just been robbed and beaten unconscious on the sidewalk. One lefty turns to the other and says: “We need to find who did this, and help them.”

I would want to help both individuals, if possible. What would you do? Is your response different if the person on the sidewalk has no money with which to pay a medical bill?

I’d want to help the victim; not coddle and make excuses for the perpetrator.

The Parable of the Good Samaritan comes to mind.
 

Tigers!

Veteran Member
I am not certain how increasing the corporate crime investigations will eliminate random shootings? Perhaps you could elaborate?

I am not certain why you consider that a necessary goal for alternatives to old fashioned policing, given that old fashioned policing has demonstrably failed to achieve that goal.

If at first you don't succeed, try something else.

The heavy handed authoritarian approach is obviously not working, so attempting an alternative is surely worthy of at least sufficient respect not to be branded a failure for not hitting a target that the current approach also cannot hit.

I am not saying that it will not work. I am saying is there a casual link between focusing on white collar crime that would reduce random shootings? If you focus on one to the detriment of the other then the neglected one will suffer. It should not be beyond the police to do both. If more resources are needed to do both then supply them.
 
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