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Breakdown In Civil Order

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Joined
Nov 9, 2017
Messages
13,859
Location
seattle
Basic Beliefs
secular-skeptic
Here in Seattle it gets worse by the day. There has been a homeless camp outside the county court house for may years. At one point an entrance was closed because of risk of assauly.

Murders have occurred in the camp. Recently a person from the camp tried to rape a courthouse worker in a bathroom.

Gun violence is rising. Apparently random shootings of cars on the highway.

The local county and city govt appears helpless and unable to make any hard decisions for fear of being labeled biased in any way.

Our apparent new district attorney elect says she wants to tare down the entire justice system.

Wat is it like where you live?

Do you feel safe looking forward?

Are you for traditional 'law and order' meaning police are there to prevent and pursue crime, or do you favor what is being called community policing or some form of it.

In Seattle community policing means letting communities and neighborhoods taking care of crime and drugs. No courts or criminal jounce except for extreme cases. No police except for special circumstances.
 
Ann Davison may win the city attorney race. Things might be turning around.
 
\(\)What American right-wing authoritarians say they want:
Freedom

What American right-wing authoritarians say they don't want:
Lawlessness

What American right-wing authoritarians don't understand:
Irony

Freedom is when people who look and behave like me say "fuck your rules, you can't tell me how to live!"

Lawlessness is when people who don't look or behave like me say "fuck your rules, you can't tell me how to live!"

It's the American way!
 
How dare the refuge thrown out by capitalism and deemed to not be worthy of life disagree.

Capitalism: "Submit or die".

Capitalism is clearly a system that can't deal with many problems and a system that creates many problems, like corrupted governments.

We can easily do better.
 
The only thing I can agree with here is that civil order is severely impoeriled in this country. The unhomed population are not at all who I'm most worried about, and indeed I see them more as victims of increasing social violence than the cause. I do not approve of murders, obviously. But someone who evicts a family out onto the street has committed just as vicious a crime, and their crime was legal. Where do you you think the homeless come from? Arresting more people isn't going to change the fact that most Americans feel no responsibility for the wellbeing of their neighbor, and relish in, rather than abjuring, the suffering of whichever of their fellow-citizens they regard as their enemies.
 
Are you for traditional 'law and order' meaning police are there to prevent and pursue crime, or do you favor what is being called community policing or some form of it.
neither.

i favor "if we're going to spend collective resources (ie money from taxes) on something, spend it on removing the circumstances that lead to crime in the first place instead of wasting it on punishing people for failing to adhere to a rigged system."

have a camp of homeless people somewhere? spend whatever money is required to build a new apartment complex, staff it with mental health and social service professionals and minimal security to assist with truly unhinged people, and then give every homeless person an apartment for free.
while you're at it, give them a reasonable monthly income while they live there along with job training and programs to assist in social functioning.

if it's expensive, cut the budget for 'street police' and patrol cops down to almost nothing and then expand your white collar and corporate crime investigations 10 fold and you'll be swimming in money, and have eliminated the homeless completely while you were at it.
 
In Seattle community policing means letting communities and neighborhoods taking care of crime and drugs.
What does "take care" means? Vendettas?

Seattle already seems to be a pretty lawless place, and it is likely to get much worse.

Couple attacked, man killed while retrieving stolen items from Seattle homeless encampment
this is a fine example of something i have been saying for many, many years: the myth of the 'self made man' in america is just that, a myth.
if you have money, property, wealth, possessions, whatever... you don't have it because you earned it. you only have it because everyone else decided to let you have it.

there is a cabal of political and economic fascists in america who evidently are completely unaware of the existence of the french revolution.
if you shit on the lower class long enough, eventually the lower class will have a "let's chop everyone's heads off" parade.

if you want social stability and rule of law and to get to have your plasma TV and new car without fear of it being stolen or fear of you being attacked and murdered, stop funding police and the military and supporting austerity and get on vastly expanding social services... and do it fucking fast.

america is on a fast track to have its upper class be literally destroyed, which is an outcome i personally welcome but would entail an awful lot of whining from an awful lot of fucking pathetic dipshits that i'd be forced to listen to.
 
Here in Seattle it gets worse by the day. There has been a homeless camp outside the county court house for may years. At one point an entrance was closed because of risk of assauly.

Murders have occurred in the camp. Recently a person from the camp tried to rape a courthouse worker in a bathroom.

Gun violence is rising. Apparently random shootings of cars on the highway.

The local county and city govt appears helpless and unable to make any hard decisions for fear of being labeled biased in any way.
Who will label them biased and in with which label?

Our apparent new district attorney elect says she wants to tare down the entire justice system.

Wat is it like where you live?

Do you feel safe looking forward?
Quote
Are you for traditional 'law and order' meaning police are there to prevent and pursue crime, or do you favor what is being called community policing or some form of it.

In Seattle community policing means letting communities and neighborhoods taking care of crime and drugs. No courts or criminal jounce except for extreme cases. No police except for special circumstances.
Is this community policing working the way it was expected or are there just 'teething' troubles?

Is Seattle to be considered a place to watch defund the police in action?
 
Are you for traditional 'law and order' meaning police are there to prevent and pursue crime, or do you favor what is being called community policing or some form of it.
neither.

i favor "if we're going to spend collective resources (ie money from taxes) on something, spend it on removing the circumstances that lead to crime in the first place instead of wasting it on punishing people for failing to adhere to a rigged system."

have a camp of homeless people somewhere? spend whatever money is required to build a new apartment complex, staff it with mental health and social service professionals and minimal security to assist with truly unhinged people, and then give every homeless person an apartment for free.
while you're at it, give them a reasonable monthly income while they live there along with job training and programs to assist in social functioning.

if it's expensive, cut the budget for 'street police' and patrol cops down to almost nothing and then expand your white collar and corporate crime investigations 10 fold and you'll be swimming in money, and have eliminated the homeless completely while you were at it.

I am not certain how increasing the corporate crime investigations will eliminate random shootings? Perhaps you could elaborate?
 
Wat is it like where you live?

Do you feel safe looking forward?
I feel safe and I see this going forward. I grew up in the 1970's and early 1980's in a city in the SW. Murder and rapes were worse. I knew kids that were raped and murdered. US crime data backs up my perspective in general....
 
Is Seattle to be considered a place to watch defund the police in action?

They've done the exact opposite of defunding the police; million of dollars were allocated toward researching "policing alternatives", and in the end few substantive policy changes have been retained. It was all smoke and no fire.

That's because defund the police dosn't work and will get you fired if you're an elected official. People want law and order, even in liberal cities like Seattle and Portland.
 
Is Seattle to be considered a place to watch defund the police in action?

They've done the exact opposite of defunding the police; million of dollars were allocated toward researching "policing alternatives", and in the end few substantive policy changes have been retained. It was all smoke and no fire.

That's because defund the police dosn't work and will get you fired if you're an elected official. People want law and order, even in liberal cities like Seattle and Portland.

That may well be true, but complaining that Seattle somehow demonstrates the failure of an approach that was never, in fact, seriously employed there is not an accuracy-based approach.
 
That's because defund the police dosn't work and will get you fired if you're an elected official. People want law and order, even in liberal cities like Seattle and Portland.

That may well be true, but complaining that Seattle somehow demonstrates the failure of an approach that was never, in fact, seriously employed there is not an accuracy-based approach.

The police were already understaffed in Seattle when the defund movement started. Indeed, the political discussion in early 2020 was about how to hire more police. After May the police were villainized and staffing has plunged further.
 
Are you for traditional 'law and order' meaning police are there to prevent and pursue crime, or do you favor what is being called community policing or some form of it.
neither.

i favor "if we're going to spend collective resources (ie money from taxes) on something, spend it on removing the circumstances that lead to crime in the first place instead of wasting it on punishing people for failing to adhere to a rigged system."

have a camp of homeless people somewhere? spend whatever money is required to build a new apartment complex, staff it with mental health and social service professionals and minimal security to assist with truly unhinged people, and then give every homeless person an apartment for free.
while you're at it, give them a reasonable monthly income while they live there along with job training and programs to assist in social functioning.

if it's expensive, cut the budget for 'street police' and patrol cops down to almost nothing and then expand your white collar and corporate crime investigations 10 fold and you'll be swimming in money, and have eliminated the homeless completely while you were at it.

I am not certain how increasing the corporate crime investigations will eliminate random shootings? Perhaps you could elaborate?

I am not certain why you consider that a necessary goal for alternatives to old fashioned policing, given that old fashioned policing has demonstrably failed to achieve that goal.

If at first you don't succeed, try something else.

The heavy handed authoritarian approach is obviously not working, so attempting an alternative is surely worthy of at least sufficient respect not to be branded a failure for not hitting a target that the current approach also cannot hit.
 
I am not certain how increasing the corporate crime investigations will eliminate random shootings? Perhaps you could elaborate?

I am not certain why you consider that a necessary goal for alternatives to old fashioned policing, given that old fashioned policing has demonstrably failed to achieve that goal.

If at first you don't succeed, try something else.

The heavy handed authoritarian approach is obviously not working, so attempting an alternative is surely worthy of at least sufficient respect not to be branded a failure for not hitting a target that the current approach also cannot hit.

Ah, old-fashioned policing works just fine. See New York City 1994 - 2013.
 
have a camp of homeless people somewhere? spend whatever money is required to build a new apartment complex, staff it with mental health and social service professionals and minimal security to assist with truly unhinged people, and then give every homeless person an apartment for free.

Google Cabrini-Green for an historical lesson in providing subsidized housing for the poor without tough policing.
Tom
 
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