Is Georgia on your mind?

[Derec]

I think this part needs to be addressed with what actually happened. Clinton's campaign was not only financing itself but the Democratic party as well.

[citation needed] for that. Also, why couldn't DNC pay their own bills?

They were running low on funds. If you will remember the head of the party (Donna Brazile, iirc) was not happy with the situation because Clinton said if you want my campaign funds I get a say in how they are used. It was considered a minor scandal at the time.

I do not. So still [citation needed].

However, Hillary spent a LOT. More than Trump. And still she had no money to direct to states she really needed to fight for?
I call BS on that.

Yes, it was a conscious decision to not campaign in what were considered safe states but that decision was made due to funding issues, not hubris and self-entitlement as Derec continually claims.

Again, she outspent Trump by a lot. So there certainly was hubris.

Derec's misogyny leads him to wrong conclusions again.

Even if what you claimed about Hillary's finances was correct, your conclusion that criticizing her campaign strategy is due to "misogyny" is not only very wrong, but also insulting.

 

[Derec]

Actually, she did NOT use the NA family legend for personal gain.

We went over it, and she most certainly did. She claimed her race as "American Indian" as early as 1986 in a professional settings.

It was simply a family legend that she shared as people are won’t to do with coworkers and at some point, her employer realized they needed to demonstrate more racial diversity and asked her about her NA ancestry at which point she shared the family legend.

It was far more than that. You don't change the race you put on a professional membership card based on a "family legend". Not unless you hope for professional benefit, that is.
Also it's "wont to do". No apostrophe. It's its own word, not a contraction of "will not".

Good enough for their purposes. AFAIK, she never listed NA ancestry on any job application and never pretended to be anything but white.

How do you explain the bar registration card then?

 

[Derec]

It's especially American politicians who have become increasingly stupid. I am certainly not the only one concerned about this. Andy Borowitz talks about his new book Profiles in Ignorance: How America’s Politicians Got Dumber and Dumber.

Borowitz is some kind of comedian, right? He has an Onion-like column. He is not exactly a serious source.

While it's clear that America has certainly gotten stupider in recent decades, is this a world-wide phenomenon? I don't think it's limited to a few Anglophone countries: Right-wing populists have been elected in recent European elections.

That is due in part due to unwillingness of mainstream parties to do anything meaningful about the mass migrant invasion into Europe. Which continues, at a somewhat lower rate than in 2015, but mass migrants (mostly Muslim) are flooding into Europe still.
Other reasons include things like economic challenges. This Winter will be hard in Europe, and the energy policies of many idiotic politicians (exit from nuclear power in Germany, rejection of fracking throughout Europe) are a big reason Europe is so vulnerable to Russia's "gas sword" right now.

 

[Swammerdami]

It's especially American politicians who have become increasingly stupid. I am certainly not the only one concerned about this. Andy Borowitz talks about his new book Profiles in Ignorance: How America’s Politicians Got Dumber and Dumber.

Borowitz is some kind of comedian, right? He has an Onion-like column. He is not exactly a serious source.

Hunh? Have you lost your grip?

Borowitz wrote a NON-FICTION book about American politics. Are humorous people automatically dismissed? You yourself quoted Will Rogers a few posts ago. Al Franken was smarter than most Senators. Mark Twain and H. L. Mencken are just a few more examples of important commentators who had a sense of humor. Barack Obama, like many people of great intelligence, was very witty when he chose to be. Et cetera, et cetera.

Trying to discuss with you exasperates and often seems futile. You throw out trite Pavlovian soundbites ("some kind of comedian, right?") without intelligent reflection. Please work on improving your game.

 

[Derec]

Her family legend pointed to a SPECIFIC ancestor alleged to be half Amerind.

The family legend (or at least her claim of it) also included her mother not being able to marry her father because of her Indianness, and so they had to elope. Which is probably another lie by the Cherokee Princess.
Saagar Enjeti calls Warren’s credibility into question

The DNA test more or less confirmed this, although Amerind testing is error-prone. That ancestor was likely quarter Amerind instead of half: So what?

Probably far less than 1/4, given that Warren herself is estimated to be between 1/1024 and 1/64 Amerindian. Which would make her mother (about whose forced elopement Liz likely lied) 1/32 at most.

There was nothing venal about Warren's embracing her family legend, but the QOP seizes on every half-truth or piece of gibberish they can find to make Ds look as bad as Rs.

She also used it in professional setting where she claimed her race to be "American Indian". She also likely invented the story of her parents' elopement which does not hold up to scrutiny.

It is a real shame that otherwise intelligent good-spirited Americans pick up on such QOP lies and gibberish and propagate it.

What is gibberish is the fervent apologetics for Warren by parts of the progressive Left. She lost, get over it. And give it a rest with childish things like "QOP".

 

[Derec]

Watch some Jordan Klepper videos and get back to us.

You made a specific claim (the 10:1 ratio) and I asked for citation. Instead, you direct me to non-specific videos by some comedian.

Start with the QOPster who is proud that QOP has "great respect for women" but wears a T-shirt saying "Hilary sucks ... but not like Monica!"

It is this absolute humorlessness of doctrinaire feminists that is really insufferable. You are offering comedians as sources, and yet cannot abide a fucking joke? Lighten up, Francis!

Continue to the interviews of FEMALE QOPsters who think hormones disqualify women from the Presidency.

Again, please provide a source to claims like this. And please, don't let it be "watch some Amy Schumer videos" ...

In 2016 many literate Americans knew of Trump only as a loud-mouth reality TV star.

He was also a real estate developer before that.

By 2020 it should have been obvious to any sentient being that he was grossly incompetent and criminal.

I do not think too many lobsters or octopi would realize that. Are you confusing "sentient" and "sapient"?

He shouldn't have gotten any votes at all, yet came within a razor-thin whisker of victory. And you want to parse decimal points on the 74 Million votes he got? Think about Donald Trump. Stare at the M in "74 Million." Get back to us when you have a clue.

Saying stuff like that is a sure sign that you are hyperpartisan. No votes? Many people liked his accomplishments. His policies, his appointments. He pushed through a conservative majority on the SCOTUS. He passed a tax cut bill. Etc. You may not like any of it, I may not like most of it, but hell, many people did like it. So why should they not vote for him if they liked what he did?
He also implemented what US presidents since 1995 (when the Jerusalem Embassy Act was passed) would not - move the US Embassy to Israel to the capital of Israel, Jerusalem. That and the Abraham Accords were an accomplishment, whether or not you think he should have done that.
Oh, and there is the cancellation of TPP. Hillary was for it, Trump was against. And so was Bernie. Some things do not fit into neat partisan boxes.

So basically you are saying no people should have voted for Trump, even if they agree with his policies and appointments over the policies and appointments Biden was likely to make? Really?

 

[Derec]

And that was all John McCain knew about her. Whether out of desperation or stupidity, he picked her thoughtlessly without any vetting. I liked John McCain but intelligence was not one of his strengths.

McCain had Palin foisted on him by the party because he was not a solid conservative and she was. She was not his actual choice.

Hunh? What "paper"? Her resume, persona, etc. were not secrets.

Her resume was ok. Mayor, chair of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission, then governor.
Certainly good enough for a running mate. On paper. Once she opened her mouth, it was different of course.

And again, for all the snickering about the population of Alaska, Vermont has fewer people, and Delaware not many more. So why no snickering there?

 

[Derec]

Hunh? Have you lost your grip?

That's where I know the guy from.

Borowitz wrote a NON-FICTION book about American politics. Are humorous people automatically dismissed?

Maybe, maybe not. Him being a creator of a sitcom does not inspire much confidence about him as a political writer.
Certainly not enough to go and get his book.

You yourself quoted Will Rogers a few posts ago.

As a humorous aside, not as a source for a claim.

Trying to discuss with you exasperates and often seems futile. You throw out trite Pavlovian soundbites ("some kind of comedian, right?") without intelligent reflection. Please work on improving your game.

You quoted two comedians when I challenged you about factual claims, such as your claim that there is a 10:1 ratio of people who would not vote for a candidate because she is a woman vs. those who would vote for her because she was a woman. Your response was "go watch [some comedian]'s videos" which is not a very intelligent reflection on your part. Please work on improving your game. I mean humorous people like Mark Twain and HE Mencken are good for flavor and commentary, but I would not use them as go-to sources about factual statements about politics of their day either.

 

[Swammerdami]

Her family legend pointed to a SPECIFIC ancestor alleged to be half Amerind.

The DNA test more or less confirmed this, although Amerind testing is error-prone. That ancestor was likely quarter Amerind instead of half: So what?

Probably far less than 1/4, given that Warren herself is estimated to be between 1/1024 and 1/64 Amerindian. Which would make her mother (about whose forced elopement Liz likely lied) 1/32 at most.

You babble about the pedigree and couldn't spend a minute Googling for it. Let me help.

1) Naomi/Neoma 'Ocie' Smith (1794? - 1858) married Jonathan H. Crawford.
She is shown as "Cherokee" on her marriage license, presumably via her mother.

2) Preston H. Crawford married Edith May Marsh

3) John H. Crawford married Paulina Anne Bowen

4) Bethania E. Crawford married Harry Gun Reed

5) Pauline Louise Reed married Donald Jones Herring

6) Elizabeth Anne Herring (b. 1949) married Jim WARREN and was elected Senator from Massachusetts.

I don't know what arithmetic skills you have so I'll SPOIL this for you. If Neoma Smith was indeed half-Cherokee, Ms. Warren would be 1/64 Cherokee.

That's it. Henceforth if you have anything intelligent to write, place it at the TOP of your post. I will cease reading as soon as I come to the first instance of insipidity or obvious blather.

I did catch a glimpse of

So basically you are saying no people should have voted for Trump, even if they agree with his policies

His own Generals were making frantic phone calls to keep foreign leaders calm. Intelligence agencies were hiding secret information from him. He fiddled with his TV and BigMac and watched the country burn.

But it was reasonable for intelligent people to vote for him? Right.

 

[Toni]

Actually, she did NOT use the NA family legend for personal gain.

We went over it, and she most certainly did. She claimed her race as "American Indian" as early as 1986 in a professional settings.

It was simply a family legend that she shared as people are won’t to do with coworkers and at some point, her employer realized they needed to demonstrate more racial diversity and asked her about her NA ancestry at which point she shared the family legend.

It was far more than that. You don't change the race you put on a professional membership card based on a "family legend". Not unless you hope for professional benefit, that is.
Also it's "wont to do". No apostrophe. It's its own word, not a contraction of "will not".

Good enough for their purposes. AFAIK, she never listed NA ancestry on any job application and never pretended to be anything but white.

How do you explain the bar registration card then?

What is the source of this supposed bar registration card? I'm asking because I never saw it before and I looked at a lot of sources back during the 2016 primaries.

 

[Toni]

I will admit that Trump's blatant sociopathy, or rather, the danger it posed, was not nearly so obvious prior to the election as it was once he took office, anyone with even casual observational skills was aware that he was a malignant sociopath who cared only about himself and his own ego long before he even considered running for POTUS.

Perhaps. I would argue that some level of sociopathy is present in most politicians.

You nicely illustrated the point of exactly why some voters preferred Bernie over Warren and yes, it definitely has to do with gender.

Bullshit. You want to make everything about gender when Bernie and Warren have very different personalities, and Bernie's is just far more appealing.

No male candidate will ever be referred to as 'schoolmarmy'

No, of course not. A schoolmarm is a woman, so that particular word would be applied to women. Duh.
A man exhibiting similar traits would be compared maybe to a strict headmaster character.

even when they are Bernie who is very school marmy with a loud voice and a lot of spittle but with a penis and testicles.

How is Bernie schoolmarmy? He comes across as passionate, not schoolmarmy or headmasterly at all.
Again, Bernie and Warren have very different personalities.

Bernie stands before his audience and shouts at---no, DOWN at them, spittle flying and finger wagging.

In my opinion Liz is lecturing DOWN on people.

But Bernie got to be the beloved cranky old grandpa instead of the schoolmarmy old woman. Yes, gender did play a role just as race played a role in the Clinton/Obama mash up. One only needed to listen to/read supporters of each for detail and some casual sexism/casual racism became apparent among some, certainly not all, supporters of each.

Given that these people have supporters in the millions, of course some of them are bound to be sexist or racist.
You, however, are trying to reduce difference in popularity between Bernie and Liz to their gender, and that won't work.
The difference is due to their personalities, not gender.

The fact that Warren allowed herself to be drawn into a no-win argument with Trump over her family legend did point out her main weakness. Bernie would have just shouted and pointed his finger and the issue would have died.

Another example is when she claimed that Bernie said that a woman could not win and the whole conflict between them over it.

She did not come off very good there either.

BTW, genetic data bases have insufficient NA DNA samples to make any of those services reliable for determining NA ancestry.

Not to mention that Amerinds are from Siberia, which means that people indigenous to eastern Eurasia would share a lot of haplogroups with Amerinds.

Native Americans themselves do NOT use DNA to establish membership.

Many probably do not even believe in DNA.

I agree that many leaders have some sociopathic tendencies.

No, I do NOT make everything about gender. YOU and many men find Sanders more appealing. I find him exactly the opposite. I think he's a bombastic old man who wags his finger as he scolds and lectures, shouts and sprays spittle whenever he talks. Moreover, he's never been very effective as a Senator and even more, he only joins the Democratic party when he wants their nomination. He's an opportunist, even for a politician and not even a good opportunist. The finger wagging scolding and shouting are the epitome of school marm, at least if it's a woman who does it. If it's a man, he's a saint and wise and funny.

I don't see Warren as better than Sanders because she's a woman and he's a man. I think that many people like Sanders and enjoy or excuse his behavior (shouting, finger wagging, scolding, spittle) because he's a man: a crotchety old grandpa. And I think that many of those same people who see Warren as too much of a wonk do so because she's female. In 2016, Grandpas were cool and grandmas were not, at least in some circles.

Nice snake you included. I love it when [certain Sanders followers] include that whenever they talk about Warren. Shows their true colors. Apparently Sanders did try to talk her into dropping out, saying that a woman couldn't win.

Native Americans themselves do NOT use DNA to establish membership.

Many probably do not even believe in DNA.

What an ugly thing to write. Pairs nicely with your allusion to the belief that NA people crossed the Siberian peninsula and so aren't really 'American' and have no more claim to the Americas than the Europeans who came after. It's always interesting when an atheist embraces manifest destiny so fiercely.

I'm fairly certain that the proportion of Native Americans who do not believe in DNA (whatever you mean by that statement) is roughly the same as the proportion of white people or black people or Hispanic people who don't believe in DNA.

 

[Copernicus]

Actually, she did NOT use the NA family legend for personal gain.

We went over it, and she most certainly did. She claimed her race as "American Indian" as early as 1986 in a professional settings.

It was simply a family legend that she shared as people are won’t to do with coworkers and at some point, her employer realized they needed to demonstrate more racial diversity and asked her about her NA ancestry at which point she shared the family legend.

It was far more than that. You don't change the race you put on a professional membership card based on a "family legend". Not unless you hope for professional benefit, that is.
Also it's "wont to do". No apostrophe. It's its own word, not a contraction of "will not".

Good enough for their purposes. AFAIK, she never listed NA ancestry on any job application and never pretended to be anything but white.

How do you explain the bar registration card then?

What is the source of this supposed bar registration card? I'm asking because I never saw it before and I looked at a lot of sources back during the 2016 primaries.

The card was first reported by the Washington Post, I believe. It is still true that she did not claim to be of American Indian heritage for any personal gain, however. This card was issued to her AFTER she was accepted to the bar. Note the very tiny print above the "Race" line:

"The following information is for statistical purposes only and will not be disclosed to any person or organization without the express written consent of the attorney..."

Well, so much for that promise. In fact, the card was disclosed. Nobody should really expect authorities in the state of Texas to honor her privacy. After all, this card had value as part of a Republican smear campaign, and that would certainly invalidate any right she might have had to protection of her information.

See:

Washington Post: Warren listed race as ‘American Indian’ on Texas bar registration​

 

[southernhybrid]

I've never understood why so many Americans don't vote in most elections. I know a 53 year old woman who has never voted in her life. A neighbor helped her register in 2020, but at the last minute, she refused to vote. Why!

Combination of laziness and apathy. Apathy because the choices we have are so often poor (recall South Park's "turd sandwich vs. a giant douche")

It's more like ignorance imo. The woman I mentioned hated Trump but she had all kinds of fears about voting. Apathy does apply in many cases, but let's add ignorance to the mix. I can't tell you how many times I've heard the words, "My vote doesn't count" or something along those lines. People don't seem to understand that the only tiny bit of power most of us have is the vote. Even when I've disliked both major candidates, there was always one that was better or worse than the other, so it wasn't that hard to choose. Plus, it's so easy to vote in Georgia, despite some of the efforts to make it more difficult. My native state of New Jersey never had any early voting until recently. I think they have a week, while we have 3 full weeks of early voting, plus we don't need a reason to request an absentee ballot, like many states do.

 

[Toni]

I understand not wanting to make a choice from a set of horrible options. I'm facing that in the upcoming city council race. One candidate (incumbent) is interested only in her personal pocketbook, as evidenced by her votes. The other is interested only in his bucolic vision which supports his outsized ego. Unfortunately, he's possibly the better candidate but I don't know that I can bring myself to vote for him or her. I blame myself. I was busy with stuff at home and did not pay attention to who was running in that race--I wish I had known and had encouraged some decent, intelligent, thoughtful person to run.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think this part needs to be addressed with what actually happened. Clinton's campaign was not only financing itself but the Democratic party as well.

[citation needed] for that. Also, why couldn't DNC pay their own bills?

They were running low on funds. If you will remember the head of the party (Donna Brazile, iirc) was not happy with the situation because Clinton said if you want my campaign funds I get a say in how they are used. It was considered a minor scandal at the time.

I do not. So still [citation needed].

However, Hillary spent a LOT. More than Trump. And still she had no money to direct to states she really needed to fight for?
I call BS on that.

Yes, it was a conscious decision to not campaign in what were considered safe states but that decision was made due to funding issues, not hubris and self-entitlement as Derec continually claims.

Again, she outspent Trump by a lot. So there certainly was hubris.

Derec's misogyny leads him to wrong conclusions again.

Even if what you claimed about Hillary's finances was correct, your conclusion that criticizing her campaign strategy is due to "misogyny" is not only very wrong, but also insulting.

Which proves nothing. Dark money doesn't show up in those reports and it's an increasing part of politics. The campaign laws require the campaign to disclose it's spending, they can't impose restrictions on those who simply say their own thing even if said speech benefits one candidate over the other.

 

[Derec]

You babble about the pedigree and couldn't spend a minute Googling for it. Let me help.

Babble is entirely your own. In any case, I do not care about the name of EW's great³ gammy to google her.

I don't know what arithmetic skills you have so I'll SPOIL this for you. If Neoma Smith was indeed half-Cherokee, Ms. Warren would be 1/64 Cherokee.

Indeed, she would be. But 1/64 is only the upper range of the estimate, not any certainty. Not even a point estimate.
If we use the bottom, 1/1024, then Gammy Neoma would be 1/32. If we use the geometric mean of the range (1/256) as a point estimate, then Gammy Neoma was 1/8 herself. Which is < 1/4.

That's it. Henceforth if you have anything intelligent to write, place it at the TOP of your post. I will cease reading as soon as I come to the first instance of insipidity or obvious blather.

So you want me to write my reply at the top, above the quotes from your post, as you will detect "insipidity or obvious blather" as soon as you start reading the quotes?

His own Generals were making frantic phone calls to keep foreign leaders calm. Intelligence agencies were hiding secret information from him. He fiddled with his TV and BigMac and watched the country burn.

I get it. Trump was a bad president. I did not vote for him in 2016. I did not vote for him in 2020. I am not a Trump supporter.

But unlike you I have enough perspective to know that policies he managed to implement, judges he managed to appoint etc. were things liked by millions of people who happily voted for him again. And others held their nose and voted for him because they disliked Biden/Democrats more.
People have different opinions. And in a democracy they have a vote even if they disagree with Swammerdami or with Derec. Deal with it.

 

[Derec]

What is the source of this supposed bar registration card?

It was originally dug up by WaPo I believe. Aggressive paywall, I know. Snopes had an article about it too, when it broke.
Did Sen. Elizabeth Warren Describe Her Race as ‘American Indian’ on Her 1986 Texas Bar Card?

I'm asking because I never saw it before

You never saw it before? Are you sure? You participated in threads in which it was brought up.
Warren's Native American heritage gaffe
In this post of the Elizabeth Warren claims Michael Brown was "murdered" thread you reply to my post where I mentioned the card directly.
You were skeptical about it back then too. And I understand why you'd hope it wasn't true. It is damning, Rachel Dolzeal type stuff.
There probably were other threads where the card was brought up as well.

and I looked at a lot of sources back during the 2016 primaries.

2020 surely. EW chose not to run in 2016 against Hillary. So Bernie had to step up.

 

[southernhybrid]

I really don't care that Warren claimed to be of Native American heritage, although I do agree it was wrong of her to make that claim. I don't think she would be a good president. She's a good Senator and that's where she needs to stay. Nobody's perfect and again I'm reminded of the words to a song that B.B. King made famous. "Everybody lies a Little". The words include, "politicians lie a little". Actually, I'd say they lie a lot, some like Tfg lie constantly. Liz lied or exaggerated about her heritage, but I don't see her as a major liar compared to many in the Republican Party these days.

Anyway....the latest poll has Warnock back in the lead. I sure hope that's right.

 

[Toni]

What is the source of this supposed bar registration card?

It was originally dug up by WaPo I believe. Aggressive paywall, I know. Snopes had an article about it too, when it broke.
Did Sen. Elizabeth Warren Describe Her Race as ‘American Indian’ on Her 1986 Texas Bar Card?

I'm asking because I never saw it before

You never saw it before? Are you sure? You participated in threads in which it was brought up.
Warren's Native American heritage gaffe
In this post of the Elizabeth Warren claims Michael Brown was "murdered" thread you reply to my post where I mentioned the card directly.
You were skeptical about it back then too. And I understand why you'd hope it wasn't true. It is damning, Rachel Dolzeal type stuff.
There probably were other threads where the card was brought up as well.

and I looked at a lot of sources back during the 2016 primaries.

2020 surely. EW chose not to run in 2016 against Hillary. So Bernie had to step up.

I don't have the time or patience to necromance through old threads. I sincerely admire your memory and ability to locate these threads. I haven't the patience. In any case, upthread here it was demonstrated that the NA notation was made AFTER she was admitted to the bar. I'm really not certain where you get the idea that race determines whether or not one is admitted to the bar in any state. It does not.

Like many people I know, Warren was perhaps over-proud of the family legend of NA ancestry. It may or may not be factual but it is apparent that she believed it to be true. It is easy if you look white and are raised white and the ancestry is far enough in history to be proud of being part Indian. It's a lot harder to live as a Native American openly.

And yeah, I meant 2020 not 2016.

Poor Bernie! Being forced against his will to run to be the nominee of a party he only belongs to when he wants to run for POTUS.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What is the source of this supposed bar registration card?

It was originally dug up by WaPo I believe. Aggressive paywall, I know. Snopes had an article about it too, when it broke.
Did Sen. Elizabeth Warren Describe Her Race as ‘American Indian’ on Her 1986 Texas Bar Card?

I'm asking because I never saw it before

You never saw it before? Are you sure? You participated in threads in which it was brought up.
Warren's Native American heritage gaffe
In this post of the Elizabeth Warren claims Michael Brown was "murdered" thread you reply to my post where I mentioned the card directly.
You were skeptical about it back then too. And I understand why you'd hope it wasn't true. It is damning, Rachel Dolzeal type stuff.
There probably were other threads where the card was brought up as well.

and I looked at a lot of sources back during the 2016 primaries.

2020 surely. EW chose not to run in 2016 against Hillary. So Bernie had to step up.

I don't have the time or patience to necromance through old threads. I sincerely admire your memory and ability to locate these threads. I haven't the patience. In any case, upthread here it was demonstrated that the NA notation was made AFTER she was admitted to the bar. I'm really not certain where you get the idea that race determines whether or not one is admitted to the bar in any state. It does not.

Like many people I know, Warren was perhaps over-proud of the family legend of NA ancestry. It may or may not be factual but it is apparent that she believed it to be true. It is easy if you look white and are raised white and the ancestry is far enough in history to be proud of being part Indian. It's a lot harder to live as a Native American openly.

The Native American angle certainly is much more an asterisk in her career. When she ran for Senate, she wasn't exactly selling a Squanto theme to her identity.

Also, is she running for office in Georgia now?