Politics Where are you really from?

[Metaphor]

Ngozi Fulani: Lady Susan Hussey's race comments were abuse, says charity boss

Ngozi Fulani tells the BBC her encounter with Lady Susan Hussey was like an "interrogation".

www.bbc.com

A black British charity boss who was repeatedly asked where she was "really" from at a royal reception has told the BBC the encounter was "abuse".

Ngozi Fulani was questioned about her background by Lady Susan Hussey, Prince William's godmother, at Buckingham Palace on Tuesday. The late Queen's lady-in-waiting has since resigned.
Ms Fulani likened the conversation with Lady Hussey, 83, to "an interrogation".
The palace described the remarks as "unacceptable and deeply regrettable".
And a spokesperson for Prince William said "racism has no place in our society". The incident has overshadowed the Prince and Princess of Wales's visit to the US to hand out awards for his Earthshot Prize.

In an interview on ITV's Good Morning Britain, Ms Fulani also said Buckingham Palace had not contacted her about the incident, insisting she would accept an invitation to discuss it with them.
"See, what we're about is positive results, so absolutely, I think a discussion should be held," she said.
Ms Fulani, who was representing her charity which supports women of African and Caribbean heritage across the UK who have faced domestic and sexual abuse, was one of 300 guests at the event where the Queen Consort, Camilla, had warned of a "global pandemic of violence against women".
BBC News has approached Lady Hussey for comment through Buckingham Palace.

Here is the full conversation, as recounted by Ms Fulani:
Lady SH: Where are you from?
Me: Sistah Space.
SH: No, where do you come from?
Me: We're based in Hackney.
SH: No, what part of Africa are you from?
Me: I don't know, they didn't leave any records.
SH: Well, you must know where you're from, I spent time in France. Where are you from?
Me: Here, the UK.
SH: No, but what nationality are you?
Me: I am born here and am British.
SH: No, but where do you really come from, where do your people come from?
Me: 'My people', lady, what is this?
SH: Oh I can see I am going to have a challenge getting you to say where you're from. When did you first come here?
Me: Lady! I am a British national, my parents came here in the 50s when...
SH: Oh, I knew we'd get there in the end, you're Caribbean!
Me: No lady, I am of African heritage, Caribbean descent and British nationality.
SH: Oh so you're from...

I congratulate Ngozi Fulani on her total recall. What a boon that would be to me at work.

Now, in my opinion, Fulani deliberately concocted a mountain when she'd been presented with a molehill. If her conversation with SH is correctly recounted, it seems to me Fulani was deliberately not getting the point. Fulani was dressed in clothing that was obviously not of native British style or design, and even changed her name from Marlene Headley to Ngozi Fulani. She obviously wants to make a point of her non-Anglo heritage.

Another way I know Fulani was deliberately not getting the point is that Fulani's encounter I can personally empathise with, as my parents were born in Europe and I have a particularly eastern European first and last name. Throughout my life, literally hundreds of times, I have been asked 'where are you from'/'where is that (my name) from' and variations, when people hear my name. I know what they want to hear. They do not want to hear 'I was born in Australia', which is true. They want to know my ethnic and cultural heritage. So, I have perfected my response: I was born in Australia, but my parents came from <country>', or even 'my parents came from <country>', which leaves to implication that I was not born there. This always tells them what they wanted to know. Every single time.

SH was oblivious to the tenor of Fulani's response, it must be said. If I had asked Fulani the initial questions and gotten those initial responses, I would have immediately registered: she does not want to talk about her cultural and ethnic heritage, despite the fact that she is signalling it on purpose. I'd have had the nous to change the topic.

 

[TSwizzle]

Looking at the exchange between SH and Fulani, Fulani is being evasive, difficult and playing games. SH was having none of it and wouldn't back down which pissed off Fulani and she starts screaming about racism and abuse.

 

[Politesse]

Once again, the only civil right conservatives find worth defending is the right to be rude in public without being criticized for it.

 

[Metaphor]

Once again, the only civil right conservatives find worth defending is the right to be rude in public without being criticized for it.

On the contrary, Politesse.

Fulani was rude in public, indeed given multiple public platforms, and she has no right to be shielded from criticism.

 

[Toni]

Really? Fulani was rude? No, Lady Hyssey was abominably rude and racist. She clearly implied that Fulani wasn’t ‘really’ British because of her African features.

 

[Toni]

Once again, the only civil right conservatives find worth defending is the right to be rude in public without being criticized for it.

On the contrary, Politesse.

Fulani was rude in public, indeed given multiple public platforms, and she has no right to be shielded from criticism.

Lady Hussey had no right to quiz any person on their ancestry, especially to imply that they were not really or fully British.

 

[Politesse]

Once again, the only civil right conservatives find worth defending is the right to be rude in public without being criticized for it.

On the contrary, Politesse.

Fulani was rude in public, indeed given multiple public platforms, and she has no right to be shielded from criticism.

If only Lady Hussey had some sort of public platform....

 

[Arctish]

Really? Fulani was rude? No, Lady Hyssey was abominably rude and racist. She clearly implied that Fulani wasn’t ‘really’ British because of her African features.

Agreed. Lady Hussey was being incredibly rude and demanding.

 

[laughing dog]

While somebody might be curious about the heritage of a person, that curiosity does provide carte blanche in the pursuit of satisfaction. Persistence in the face of resistance in that pursuit is, at a minimum, fucking rude. And depending on the level of persistence, abusive.

 

[Terrell]

If you ask someone where they're from, and they answer, leave it at that. Following up with "where are you REALLY from" is going to piss off some people. So after the first answer back off & respect that other person's boundaries. If they want you to know more they'll volunteer the answer. You don't have a need to know and are not owed an answer.

 

[Oleg]

 

[Metaphor]

Really? Fulani was rude?

Yes, of course she was. But she was worse than rude. She was calculating.

Fulani was doing exactly what others have accused me of doing. Playing dumb.

No, Lady Hyssey was abominably rude and racist. She clearly implied that Fulani wasn’t ‘really’ British because of her African features.

Lady Hussey was rude and obviously not picking up Fulani's social signal - but her questions are not racist. Fulani signalled her non-British ethnic and cultural heritage on purpose and then played dumb when asked about it. It is not racist to ask about someone's ethnic and cultural heritage, though it is indeed rude to persist in the questioning when the other person clearly does not want to talk to you about it.

 

[Metaphor]

Once again, the only civil right conservatives find worth defending is the right to be rude in public without being criticized for it.

On the contrary, Politesse.

Fulani was rude in public, indeed given multiple public platforms, and she has no right to be shielded from criticism.

If only Lady Hussey had some sort of public platform....

I have no idea if she has been offered interviews with BBC and other platforms the way Fulani has. And she clearly does not have the support of the "palace officials".

 

[Toni]

Really? Fulani was rude?

Yes, of course she was. But she was worse than rude. She was calculating.

Fulani was doing exactly what others have accused me of doing. Playing dumb.

No, Lady Hyssey was abominably rude and racist. She clearly implied that Fulani wasn’t ‘really’ British because of her African features.

Lady Hussey was rude and obviously not picking up Fulani's social signal - but her questions are not racist. Fulani signalled her non-British ethnic and cultural heritage on purpose and then played dumb when asked about it. It is not racist to ask about someone's ethnic and cultural heritage, though it is indeed rude to persist in the questioning when the other person clearly does not want to talk to you about it.

Fulani signalled her non-British ethnic and cultural heritage.....by not wearing whiteface? Please tell me you are joking here.

I am sincerely not attempting to insult you but it has occurred to me more than once that you do not pick up on the same social cues and signals that most of us of primarily British heritage do. The social convention is that when someone asks you an inappropriate or rude or unnecessarily prying question that one simply ignores the question being asked and attempts to deflect.

Suppose at a gathering at your mother's or your grandmother's house, one of her elderly guests began to ask you about your bowel movements. (I picked this simply because it's one of the most offensive and clearly personal areas of one's life) and began to ask probing questions. Perhaps you are the kind of person who might have the nerve to answer blankly or to call the person out directly but I'm guessing that most of us would attempt to deflect without being actually as rude as your mother/grandmother's elderly guest was being to you, out of respect for the age/position of the older woman and also out of respect for your mother/grandmother. And some of us would simply be stunned at being asked such a clearly inappropriate personal question that could have absolutely zero place in polite conversation at a social gathering.

Essentially, this is what happened at that gathering between Fulani and Lady Hussey. Lady Hussey asked an inappropriate question (with strongly racial overtones) and refused to drop the line of questioning when Fulani attempted to politely deflect. There would be more opportunity to come to Lady Hussey's defense if she had perhaps remarked on Fulani's charming accent and asked if she spent much time in the Caribbean or if she had family there. Still perhaps a bit racially charged but not that different than if she had a Swedish or German accent. And nearly erased if she could mention a dear friend or classmate who hailed from that region and how much she enjoyed visiting her friend there. But that isn't what happened.

In the US, it is not terribly unusual for older people to ask about someone's regional accent and can be intended to be insulting or simply a conversation starter, depending on tone of voice, etc. So can asking if you are by chance related to the (Insert family name) of (insert business concern or city)(family name): an intentional put down or an attempt to find something in common.

People of the dominant culture often use such ruses as accents or physical characteristics to imply that someone is not truly a citizen of the country.

 

[Metaphor]

Really? Fulani was rude?

Yes, of course she was. But she was worse than rude. She was calculating.

Fulani was doing exactly what others have accused me of doing. Playing dumb.

No, Lady Hyssey was abominably rude and racist. She clearly implied that Fulani wasn’t ‘really’ British because of her African features.

Lady Hussey was rude and obviously not picking up Fulani's social signal - but her questions are not racist. Fulani signalled her non-British ethnic and cultural heritage on purpose and then played dumb when asked about it. It is not racist to ask about someone's ethnic and cultural heritage, though it is indeed rude to persist in the questioning when the other person clearly does not want to talk to you about it.

Fulani signalled her non-British ethnic and cultural heritage.....by not wearing whiteface? Please tell me you are joking here.

No, I am not joking. Do you read my OPs?

Ngozi Fulani was not her birth name: that was Marlene Headley. Fulani deliberately chose a name that was not the ones her parents gave her to signal her Afro-Caribbean heritage. She also wore clothing that was specifically not of British origin or design. She was also there as the head of a charity that assists Afro-Caribbean women.

I am sincerely not attempting to insult you but it has occurred to me more than once that you do not pick up on the same social cues and signals that most of us of primarily British heritage do. The social convention is that when someone asks you an inappropriate or rude or unnecessarily prying question that one simply ignores the question being asked and attempts to deflect.

Hussey's question was not inappropriate or rude, but Hussey should have picked up that Fulani did not want to answer it. I would have picked it up.

Honestly, do you read my OPs? Did you read that I am much better positioned than you to pick up on exactly what was happening between Hussey and Fulani? The same thing has happened to me hundreds of times.

Suppose at a gathering at your mother's or your grandmother's house, one of her elderly guests began to ask you about your bowel movements. (I picked this simply because it's one of the most offensive and clearly personal areas of one's life) and began to ask probing questions. Perhaps you are the kind of person who might have the nerve to answer blankly or to call the person out directly but I'm guessing that most of us would attempt to deflect without being actually as rude as your mother/grandmother's elderly guest was being to you, out of respect for the age/position of the older woman and also out of respect for your mother/grandmother. And some of us would simply be stunned at being asked such a clearly inappropriate personal question that could have absolutely zero place in polite conversation at a social gathering.

Essentially, this is what happened at that gathering between Fulani and Lady Hussey. Lady Hussey asked an inappropriate question (with strongly racial overtones) and refused to drop the line of questioning when Fulani attempted to politely deflect.

No: the original question was not inappropriate. Not picking up that Fulani didn't want to answer, and persisting, was clueless and rude of Hussey, though. But I've already said that twice.

There would be more opportunity to come to Lady Hussey's defense if she had perhaps remarked on Fulani's charming accent and asked if she spent much time in the Caribbean or if she had family there. Still perhaps a bit racially charged but not that different than if she had a Swedish or German accent.

In the US, it is not terribly unusual for older people to ask about someone's regional accent and can be intended to be insulting or simply a conversation starter, depending on tone of voice, etc. So can asking if you are by chance related to the (Insert family name) of (insert business concern or city)(family name): an intentional put down or an attempt to find something in common.

 

[Toni]

Really? Fulani was rude?

Yes, of course she was. But she was worse than rude. She was calculating.

Fulani was doing exactly what others have accused me of doing. Playing dumb.

No, Lady Hyssey was abominably rude and racist. She clearly implied that Fulani wasn’t ‘really’ British because of her African features.

Lady Hussey was rude and obviously not picking up Fulani's social signal - but her questions are not racist. Fulani signalled her non-British ethnic and cultural heritage on purpose and then played dumb when asked about it. It is not racist to ask about someone's ethnic and cultural heritage, though it is indeed rude to persist in the questioning when the other person clearly does not want to talk to you about it.

Fulani signalled her non-British ethnic and cultural heritage.....by not wearing whiteface? Please tell me you are joking here.

No, I am not joking. Do you read my OPs?

Ngozi Fulani was not her birth name: that was Marlene Headley. Fulani deliberately chose a name that was not the ones her parents gave her to signal her Afro-Caribbean heritage. She also wore clothing that was specifically not of British origin or design. She was also there as the head of a charity that assists Afro-Caribbean women.

I am sincerely not attempting to insult you but it has occurred to me more than once that you do not pick up on the same social cues and signals that most of us of primarily British heritage do. The social convention is that when someone asks you an inappropriate or rude or unnecessarily prying question that one simply ignores the question being asked and attempts to deflect.

Hussey's question was not inappropriate or rude, but Hussey should have picked up that Fulani did not want to answer it. I would have picked it up.

Honestly, do you read my OPs? Did you read that I am much better positioned than you to pick up on exactly what was happening between Hussey and Fulani? The same thing has happened to me hundreds of times.

Suppose at a gathering at your mother's or your grandmother's house, one of her elderly guests began to ask you about your bowel movements. (I picked this simply because it's one of the most offensive and clearly personal areas of one's life) and began to ask probing questions. Perhaps you are the kind of person who might have the nerve to answer blankly or to call the person out directly but I'm guessing that most of us would attempt to deflect without being actually as rude as your mother/grandmother's elderly guest was being to you, out of respect for the age/position of the older woman and also out of respect for your mother/grandmother. And some of us would simply be stunned at being asked such a clearly inappropriate personal question that could have absolutely zero place in polite conversation at a social gathering.

Essentially, this is what happened at that gathering between Fulani and Lady Hussey. Lady Hussey asked an inappropriate question (with strongly racial overtones) and refused to drop the line of questioning when Fulani attempted to politely deflect.

No: the original question was not inappropriate. Not picking up that Fulani didn't want to answer, and persisting, was clueless and rude of Hussey, though. But I've already said that twice.

There would be more opportunity to come to Lady Hussey's defense if she had perhaps remarked on Fulani's charming accent and asked if she spent much time in the Caribbean or if she had family there. Still perhaps a bit racially charged but not that different than if she had a Swedish or German accent.

In the US, it is not terribly unusual for older people to ask about someone's regional accent and can be intended to be insulting or simply a conversation starter, depending on tone of voice, etc. So can asking if you are by chance related to the (Insert family name) of (insert business concern or city)(family name): an intentional put down or an attempt to find something in common.

So, if Fulani had only kept her Anglo name and worn British clothing, Hussey would......not have noticed that she is black? Not have questioned her about where she was really from?

You cannot possibly be serious.

I actually wrote and then deleted before positing a reference and question about you having received similar treatment because your family (I believe) are recently immigrated to Australia and also not originating from Great Britain--something that you have been made to feel uncomfortable about many times. I erased it because I thought I might possibly have remembered incorrectly and might possibly cause you offense either for misremembering or for referencing something so personal. Neither offense I wished to give.

Frankly, I would think that you would have a bit more empathy for Fulani for her experience, having had similar experiences many times. No doubt Fulani has had similar experiences many times as well. Apparently you do not feel any empathy for her or nor understand why she might feel differently than you did, particularly because of the color of her skin.

Yes, Hussey should well have picked up on Fulani not wishing to answer such line of questioning and she was quite wrong not to desist.

The line of questioning---as related in the article--was not appropriate, although it is not uncommon for people of a certain age to make such inquiries, often, but not always simply to find a topic of common interest. But I've seen it done when it was definitely to put someone in their place --or 'their place' and not only be people of a certain age.

The questioning was made worse by the fact that Hussey moved Fulani's hair to read her name tag--this is very counter to etiquette when speaking with an equal who is also a stranger to you--not a child or someone with whom you are on close terms. There is particular offense when white people touch the hair of black people without permission or invitation. It would be even more offensive than if your grandmother's friend moved a lock of your hair so she could see an earring you were wearing (assuming you wore an earring): very offensive and overly familiar.

I understand that you feel you have been in identical circumstances many times, although you have not quite been as you are not of African descent (unless I am mistaken).

 

[Metaphor]

Really? Fulani was rude?

Yes, of course she was. But she was worse than rude. She was calculating.

Fulani was doing exactly what others have accused me of doing. Playing dumb.

No, Lady Hyssey was abominably rude and racist. She clearly implied that Fulani wasn’t ‘really’ British because of her African features.

Lady Hussey was rude and obviously not picking up Fulani's social signal - but her questions are not racist. Fulani signalled her non-British ethnic and cultural heritage on purpose and then played dumb when asked about it. It is not racist to ask about someone's ethnic and cultural heritage, though it is indeed rude to persist in the questioning when the other person clearly does not want to talk to you about it.

Fulani signalled her non-British ethnic and cultural heritage.....by not wearing whiteface? Please tell me you are joking here.

No, I am not joking. Do you read my OPs?

Ngozi Fulani was not her birth name: that was Marlene Headley. Fulani deliberately chose a name that was not the ones her parents gave her to signal her Afro-Caribbean heritage. She also wore clothing that was specifically not of British origin or design. She was also there as the head of a charity that assists Afro-Caribbean women.

I am sincerely not attempting to insult you but it has occurred to me more than once that you do not pick up on the same social cues and signals that most of us of primarily British heritage do. The social convention is that when someone asks you an inappropriate or rude or unnecessarily prying question that one simply ignores the question being asked and attempts to deflect.

Hussey's question was not inappropriate or rude, but Hussey should have picked up that Fulani did not want to answer it. I would have picked it up.

Honestly, do you read my OPs? Did you read that I am much better positioned than you to pick up on exactly what was happening between Hussey and Fulani? The same thing has happened to me hundreds of times.

Suppose at a gathering at your mother's or your grandmother's house, one of her elderly guests began to ask you about your bowel movements. (I picked this simply because it's one of the most offensive and clearly personal areas of one's life) and began to ask probing questions. Perhaps you are the kind of person who might have the nerve to answer blankly or to call the person out directly but I'm guessing that most of us would attempt to deflect without being actually as rude as your mother/grandmother's elderly guest was being to you, out of respect for the age/position of the older woman and also out of respect for your mother/grandmother. And some of us would simply be stunned at being asked such a clearly inappropriate personal question that could have absolutely zero place in polite conversation at a social gathering.

Essentially, this is what happened at that gathering between Fulani and Lady Hussey. Lady Hussey asked an inappropriate question (with strongly racial overtones) and refused to drop the line of questioning when Fulani attempted to politely deflect.

No: the original question was not inappropriate. Not picking up that Fulani didn't want to answer, and persisting, was clueless and rude of Hussey, though. But I've already said that twice.

There would be more opportunity to come to Lady Hussey's defense if she had perhaps remarked on Fulani's charming accent and asked if she spent much time in the Caribbean or if she had family there. Still perhaps a bit racially charged but not that different than if she had a Swedish or German accent.

In the US, it is not terribly unusual for older people to ask about someone's regional accent and can be intended to be insulting or simply a conversation starter, depending on tone of voice, etc. So can asking if you are by chance related to the (Insert family name) of (insert business concern or city)(family name): an intentional put down or an attempt to find something in common.

So, if Fulani had only kept her Anglo name and worn British clothing, Hussey would......not have noticed that she is black? Not have questioned her about where she was really from?

Where did I say that?

You cannot possibly be serious.

My references to Fulani's clothes and name and actions were about Fulani, not about Hussey.

I actually wrote and then deleted before positing a reference and question about you having received similar treatment because your family (I believe) are recently immigrated to Australia and also not originating from Great Britain--something that you have been made to feel uncomfortable about many times. I erased it because I thought I might possibly have remembered incorrectly and might possibly cause you offense either for misremembering or for referencing something so personal. Neither offense I wished to give.

What do you need to remember? Did you read my OP? I have said, including in the OP, that my parents were from eastern Europe and that I am not Anglo in any way. except inasmuch by living in the Anglosphere.

Frankly, I would think that you would have a bit more empathy for Fulani for her experience, having had similar experiences many times. No doubt Fulani has had similar experiences many times as well. Apparently you do not feel any empathy for her or nor understand why she might feel differently than you did, particularly because of the color of her skin.

Did you read my OP? I already talk about this in my OP.

Yes, Hussey should well have picked up on Fulani not wishing to answer such line of questioning and she was quite wrong not to desist.

The line of questioning---as related in the article--was not appropriate, although it is not uncommon for people of a certain age to make such inquiries, often, but not always simply to find a topic of common interest. But I've seen it done when it was definitely to put someone in their place --or 'their place' and not only be people of a certain age.

I doubt the people who enquired about my heritage after hearing my name were doing it to put me in my place. They seem genuinely curious, or were doing it out of politeness.

The questioning was made worse by the fact that Hussey moved Fulani's hair to read her name tag--this is very counter to etiquette when speaking with an equal who is also a stranger to you--not a child or someone with whom you are on close terms. There is particular offense when white people touch the hair of black people without permission or invitation. It would be even more offensive than if your grandmother's friend moved a lock of your hair so she could see an earring you were wearing (assuming you wore an earring): very offensive and overly familiar.

Hussey touching someone else without their permission was not appropriate, but I find no indication it was racist.

I understand that you feel you have been in identical circumstances many times, although you have not quite been as you are not of African descent (unless I am mistaken).

I am not of African descent, at least not in the last few thousand years. Of course, we are all out of Africa if we go back far enough. My circumstances are not identical to Fulani's, but they are similar enough that I know exactly what information Hussey was enquiring after, and I know almost for certain, Fulani was playing dumb when not providing it. Fulani, like myself, would have been asked the cultural and ethnic heritage question hundreds of times in her life. There is no universe where she was dreadfully confused.

If Fulani did not want to disclose what she ended up disclosing, she should have shut Hussey down with "I am a British citizen, I was born here, and that's all I wish to tell you". I've never said the equivalent, because I have no shame in disclosing my ethnic and cultural heritage.

 

[Toni]

Really? Fulani was rude?

Yes, of course she was. But she was worse than rude. She was calculating.

Fulani was doing exactly what others have accused me of doing. Playing dumb.

No, Lady Hyssey was abominably rude and racist. She clearly implied that Fulani wasn’t ‘really’ British because of her African features.

Lady Hussey was rude and obviously not picking up Fulani's social signal - but her questions are not racist. Fulani signalled her non-British ethnic and cultural heritage on purpose and then played dumb when asked about it. It is not racist to ask about someone's ethnic and cultural heritage, though it is indeed rude to persist in the questioning when the other person clearly does not want to talk to you about it.

Fulani signalled her non-British ethnic and cultural heritage.....by not wearing whiteface? Please tell me you are joking here.

No, I am not joking. Do you read my OPs?

Ngozi Fulani was not her birth name: that was Marlene Headley. Fulani deliberately chose a name that was not the ones her parents gave her to signal her Afro-Caribbean heritage. She also wore clothing that was specifically not of British origin or design. She was also there as the head of a charity that assists Afro-Caribbean women.

I am sincerely not attempting to insult you but it has occurred to me more than once that you do not pick up on the same social cues and signals that most of us of primarily British heritage do. The social convention is that when someone asks you an inappropriate or rude or unnecessarily prying question that one simply ignores the question being asked and attempts to deflect.

Hussey's question was not inappropriate or rude, but Hussey should have picked up that Fulani did not want to answer it. I would have picked it up.

Honestly, do you read my OPs? Did you read that I am much better positioned than you to pick up on exactly what was happening between Hussey and Fulani? The same thing has happened to me hundreds of times.

Suppose at a gathering at your mother's or your grandmother's house, one of her elderly guests began to ask you about your bowel movements. (I picked this simply because it's one of the most offensive and clearly personal areas of one's life) and began to ask probing questions. Perhaps you are the kind of person who might have the nerve to answer blankly or to call the person out directly but I'm guessing that most of us would attempt to deflect without being actually as rude as your mother/grandmother's elderly guest was being to you, out of respect for the age/position of the older woman and also out of respect for your mother/grandmother. And some of us would simply be stunned at being asked such a clearly inappropriate personal question that could have absolutely zero place in polite conversation at a social gathering.

Essentially, this is what happened at that gathering between Fulani and Lady Hussey. Lady Hussey asked an inappropriate question (with strongly racial overtones) and refused to drop the line of questioning when Fulani attempted to politely deflect.

No: the original question was not inappropriate. Not picking up that Fulani didn't want to answer, and persisting, was clueless and rude of Hussey, though. But I've already said that twice.

There would be more opportunity to come to Lady Hussey's defense if she had perhaps remarked on Fulani's charming accent and asked if she spent much time in the Caribbean or if she had family there. Still perhaps a bit racially charged but not that different than if she had a Swedish or German accent.

In the US, it is not terribly unusual for older people to ask about someone's regional accent and can be intended to be insulting or simply a conversation starter, depending on tone of voice, etc. So can asking if you are by chance related to the (Insert family name) of (insert business concern or city)(family name): an intentional put down or an attempt to find something in common.

So, if Fulani had only kept her Anglo name and worn British clothing, Hussey would......not have noticed that she is black? Not have questioned her about where she was really from?

Where did I say that?

You cannot possibly be serious.

My references to Fulani's clothes and name and actions were about Fulani, not about Hussey.

I actually wrote and then deleted before positing a reference and question about you having received similar treatment because your family (I believe) are recently immigrated to Australia and also not originating from Great Britain--something that you have been made to feel uncomfortable about many times. I erased it because I thought I might possibly have remembered incorrectly and might possibly cause you offense either for misremembering or for referencing something so personal. Neither offense I wished to give.

What do you need to remember? Did you read my OP? I have said, including in the OP, that my parents were from eastern Europe and that I am not Anglo in any way. except inasmuch by living in the Anglosphere.

Frankly, I would think that you would have a bit more empathy for Fulani for her experience, having had similar experiences many times. No doubt Fulani has had similar experiences many times as well. Apparently you do not feel any empathy for her or nor understand why she might feel differently than you did, particularly because of the color of her skin.

Did you read my OP? I already talk about this in my OP.

Yes, Hussey should well have picked up on Fulani not wishing to answer such line of questioning and she was quite wrong not to desist.

The line of questioning---as related in the article--was not appropriate, although it is not uncommon for people of a certain age to make such inquiries, often, but not always simply to find a topic of common interest. But I've seen it done when it was definitely to put someone in their place --or 'their place' and not only be people of a certain age.

I doubt the people who enquired about my heritage after hearing my name were doing it to put me in my place. They seem genuinely curious, or were doing it out of politeness.

The questioning was made worse by the fact that Hussey moved Fulani's hair to read her name tag--this is very counter to etiquette when speaking with an equal who is also a stranger to you--not a child or someone with whom you are on close terms. There is particular offense when white people touch the hair of black people without permission or invitation. It would be even more offensive than if your grandmother's friend moved a lock of your hair so she could see an earring you were wearing (assuming you wore an earring): very offensive and overly familiar.

Hussey touching someone else without their permission was not appropriate, but I find no indication it was racist.

I understand that you feel you have been in identical circumstances many times, although you have not quite been as you are not of African descent (unless I am mistaken).

I am not of African descent, at least not in the last few thousand years. Of course, we are all out of Africa if we go back far enough. My circumstances are not identical to Fulani's, but they are similar enough that I know exactly what information Hussey was enquiring after, and I know almost for certain, Fulani was playing dumb when not providing it. Fulani, like myself, would have been asked the cultural and ethnic heritage question hundreds of times in her life. There is no universe where she was dreadfully confused.

If Fulani did not want to disclose what she ended up disclosing, she should have shut Hussey down with "I am a British citizen, I was born here, and that's all I wish to tell you". I've never said the equivalent, because I have no shame in disclosing my ethnic and cultural heritage.

NO you do NOT know almost for certain that Hussey was 'playing dumb' by not providing it. She was at a professional event and she responded the way one would normally respond to a question about where you are from at a professional event: She gave the name of the organization she represented. She continued giving responses that would have cued most people into the fact that they were being intrusive and inappropriate for the setting.

I seriously doubt that Fulani is in any way ashamed of her heritage, particularly since she has gone to trouble to highlight it. You are projecting.

Perhaps Fulani would have responded the way that you have deemed appropriate because that's how YOU respond if she did not feel that there was a racial component to the questioning and that the questions were not an effort to get to know her but to let her know her place.

 

[Metaphor]

Really? Fulani was rude?

Yes, of course she was. But she was worse than rude. She was calculating.

Fulani was doing exactly what others have accused me of doing. Playing dumb.

No, Lady Hyssey was abominably rude and racist. She clearly implied that Fulani wasn’t ‘really’ British because of her African features.

Lady Hussey was rude and obviously not picking up Fulani's social signal - but her questions are not racist. Fulani signalled her non-British ethnic and cultural heritage on purpose and then played dumb when asked about it. It is not racist to ask about someone's ethnic and cultural heritage, though it is indeed rude to persist in the questioning when the other person clearly does not want to talk to you about it.

Fulani signalled her non-British ethnic and cultural heritage.....by not wearing whiteface? Please tell me you are joking here.

No, I am not joking. Do you read my OPs?

Ngozi Fulani was not her birth name: that was Marlene Headley. Fulani deliberately chose a name that was not the ones her parents gave her to signal her Afro-Caribbean heritage. She also wore clothing that was specifically not of British origin or design. She was also there as the head of a charity that assists Afro-Caribbean women.

I am sincerely not attempting to insult you but it has occurred to me more than once that you do not pick up on the same social cues and signals that most of us of primarily British heritage do. The social convention is that when someone asks you an inappropriate or rude or unnecessarily prying question that one simply ignores the question being asked and attempts to deflect.

Hussey's question was not inappropriate or rude, but Hussey should have picked up that Fulani did not want to answer it. I would have picked it up.

Honestly, do you read my OPs? Did you read that I am much better positioned than you to pick up on exactly what was happening between Hussey and Fulani? The same thing has happened to me hundreds of times.

Suppose at a gathering at your mother's or your grandmother's house, one of her elderly guests began to ask you about your bowel movements. (I picked this simply because it's one of the most offensive and clearly personal areas of one's life) and began to ask probing questions. Perhaps you are the kind of person who might have the nerve to answer blankly or to call the person out directly but I'm guessing that most of us would attempt to deflect without being actually as rude as your mother/grandmother's elderly guest was being to you, out of respect for the age/position of the older woman and also out of respect for your mother/grandmother. And some of us would simply be stunned at being asked such a clearly inappropriate personal question that could have absolutely zero place in polite conversation at a social gathering.

Essentially, this is what happened at that gathering between Fulani and Lady Hussey. Lady Hussey asked an inappropriate question (with strongly racial overtones) and refused to drop the line of questioning when Fulani attempted to politely deflect.

No: the original question was not inappropriate. Not picking up that Fulani didn't want to answer, and persisting, was clueless and rude of Hussey, though. But I've already said that twice.

There would be more opportunity to come to Lady Hussey's defense if she had perhaps remarked on Fulani's charming accent and asked if she spent much time in the Caribbean or if she had family there. Still perhaps a bit racially charged but not that different than if she had a Swedish or German accent.

In the US, it is not terribly unusual for older people to ask about someone's regional accent and can be intended to be insulting or simply a conversation starter, depending on tone of voice, etc. So can asking if you are by chance related to the (Insert family name) of (insert business concern or city)(family name): an intentional put down or an attempt to find something in common.

So, if Fulani had only kept her Anglo name and worn British clothing, Hussey would......not have noticed that she is black? Not have questioned her about where she was really from?

Where did I say that?

You cannot possibly be serious.

My references to Fulani's clothes and name and actions were about Fulani, not about Hussey.

I actually wrote and then deleted before positing a reference and question about you having received similar treatment because your family (I believe) are recently immigrated to Australia and also not originating from Great Britain--something that you have been made to feel uncomfortable about many times. I erased it because I thought I might possibly have remembered incorrectly and might possibly cause you offense either for misremembering or for referencing something so personal. Neither offense I wished to give.

What do you need to remember? Did you read my OP? I have said, including in the OP, that my parents were from eastern Europe and that I am not Anglo in any way. except inasmuch by living in the Anglosphere.

Frankly, I would think that you would have a bit more empathy for Fulani for her experience, having had similar experiences many times. No doubt Fulani has had similar experiences many times as well. Apparently you do not feel any empathy for her or nor understand why she might feel differently than you did, particularly because of the color of her skin.

Did you read my OP? I already talk about this in my OP.

Yes, Hussey should well have picked up on Fulani not wishing to answer such line of questioning and she was quite wrong not to desist.

The line of questioning---as related in the article--was not appropriate, although it is not uncommon for people of a certain age to make such inquiries, often, but not always simply to find a topic of common interest. But I've seen it done when it was definitely to put someone in their place --or 'their place' and not only be people of a certain age.

I doubt the people who enquired about my heritage after hearing my name were doing it to put me in my place. They seem genuinely curious, or were doing it out of politeness.

The questioning was made worse by the fact that Hussey moved Fulani's hair to read her name tag--this is very counter to etiquette when speaking with an equal who is also a stranger to you--not a child or someone with whom you are on close terms. There is particular offense when white people touch the hair of black people without permission or invitation. It would be even more offensive than if your grandmother's friend moved a lock of your hair so she could see an earring you were wearing (assuming you wore an earring): very offensive and overly familiar.

Hussey touching someone else without their permission was not appropriate, but I find no indication it was racist.

I understand that you feel you have been in identical circumstances many times, although you have not quite been as you are not of African descent (unless I am mistaken).

I am not of African descent, at least not in the last few thousand years. Of course, we are all out of Africa if we go back far enough. My circumstances are not identical to Fulani's, but they are similar enough that I know exactly what information Hussey was enquiring after, and I know almost for certain, Fulani was playing dumb when not providing it. Fulani, like myself, would have been asked the cultural and ethnic heritage question hundreds of times in her life. There is no universe where she was dreadfully confused.

If Fulani did not want to disclose what she ended up disclosing, she should have shut Hussey down with "I am a British citizen, I was born here, and that's all I wish to tell you". I've never said the equivalent, because I have no shame in disclosing my ethnic and cultural heritage.

NO you do NOT know almost for certain that Hussey was 'playing dumb' by not providing it. She was at a professional event and she responded the way one would normally respond to a question about where you are from at a professional event: She gave the name of the organization she represented. She continued giving responses that would have cued most people into the fact that they were being intrusive and inappropriate for the setting.

Your response here indicates to me you have no clue. I'm sorry Toni, but you do not.

If you had grown up with a name that marked your origins being radically different from the prevailing culture, you would know what I'm talking about. You don't. You simply don't.

I know exactly what older Anglo women like Hussey are like.

I seriously doubt that Fulani is in any way ashamed of her heritage, particularly since she has gone to trouble to highlight it. You are projecting.

I am not projecting, and I did not say or imply that Fulani was ashamed of her heritage. I am implying something much worse. I think Fulani concocted a mountain out of a molehill on purpose. She deliberately played dumb as to what Hussey was asking to put Hussey in her place.

EDIT: And, of course, Fulani won. Hussey retired, presumably now in permanent disgrace, the palace offered no sanctuary whatever to somebody who had worked for them for sixty years for free.

 

[Arctish]

One fine Friday in Alaska:

Lady SH: Where are you from?
Me: I'm one of the docents here at the museum.
SH: No, where do you come from?
Me: I live here in town.
SH: No, what part of the world are you from?
Me: Some of ancestors were from somewhere in Central Europe or maybe east of there, while others were from the British Isles, but they didn't leave any records saying exactly where.
SH: Well, you must know where you're from, I spent time in France. Where are you from?
Me: Originally the Lower 48 but I've lived in Alaska for over 30 years. (Also Me: WTF???)
SH: No, but what nationality are you?
Me: I was born in Connecticut and I'm American.
SH: No, but where do you really come from, where do your people come from?
Me: 'My people', lady, what is this?
SH: Oh I can see I am going to have a challenge getting you to say where you're from. When did you first come here?
Me: Here in Alaska? Over 30 years ago...
SH: Oh, I knew we'd get there in the end, you're Russian!
Me: No lady, I am of European American heritage, was born in New England, lived in the Northeast and Texas, but I have been in Alaska long enough to be considered an Alaskan.
SH: Oh so you're from...


I don't think Lady Hussey set out to be rude but she was certainly being pushy and pretty damn clueless.