Politics Where are you really from?

[Metaphor]

You suggest that I hunt for a photo of the woman — not just any photo but a photo of the specific encounter in question!

No, I implied that you should believe that I did not manufacture that claim from whole cloth. But, if you are dying top see what she was wearing, this is it:

Your link did not contain such a photo. Could I have found such a photo with, say, 90 seconds of Googling? Probably not: my computer has serious speed problems and my Google-fu is poor.

BUT you suggest that that's how I should spend my time You made a point about the clothing, apparently have a link, and refuse to show it Googling for an unimportant photo (which, in any event, is intended to support YOUR point!) is not a high priority for me.

You have now been provided with a photo, which I took from Fulani's Sistah Space Twitter feed.

https://twitter.com/Sistah_Space?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1597854380115767296%7Ctwgr%5E34317d44cf423910284619490de51be0f8aba841%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-1635550391564913156.ampproject.net%2F2210172057000%2Fframe.html

Yet you spent more time composing the complaint I've reddened than it would have taken you to post the photo or link! We've seen this sort of behavior before. I wonder if you see why I find it to border on hilarity.

(True, I could probably find the photo in less time than I'm taking to write this, but I do not want the photo. It's a better use of my time to write a brief essay on elementary rhetoric.)

Yes, I know you don't want the photo. You want me to produce the photo.

Yes, you conceded that Lady Susan was also rude.

To concede something I first must have denied it or at least reserved judgment. I did not concede Lady Susan was rude. She was rude and I said so.

But paragraphs need to stand on their own merits — this is a basic fact of essay composition taught in secondary schools in the U.S.A.

I do not like to compose walls of text, but in any case - the paragraph followed directly from the previous paragraph. You dishonestly edited it out as if I had never addressed the topic at all.

Whether Lady Susan was rude or not, and whether you've conceded that rudeness or not, has no bearing whatsoever on your conflation of noticing and interrogation. My reprimand was intended as a helpful hint toward proper rhetoric.

I did not conflate them. I addressed the noticing part and I addressed the interrogating part. I did the opposite of conflate them.

As for the browser's "dishonest edit" function, if this refers to the ability to abbreviate posts by snipping out paragraphs irrelevant to the reply — I wish! Instead I do this editing manually. Try it sometime!

I also edit 'manually', but I do not dishonestly snip out paragraphs. The paragraph you snipped out clearly was relevant, which is why I had to go to the trouble of quoting myself in response to your post.

 

[Metaphor]

"The late Queen's lady-in-waiting has since resigned."

There's so much nonsense going on here. That's what keeps amusing me.

How does one "resign" from being a dead Queen's "lady-in-waiting"?

After the Queen of Australia's death, the lady in waiting had her work title changed and started working for the King and Queen Consort.

These roles are unpaid because they are a way for bored women in the aristocratic classes to do something during the day.

 

[Metaphor]

Frankly, I don't see how contradicting someone when they tell you where they are from, and demanding a "real" answer, could be seen as anything other than extremely rude. Like, accusing people of lying at all is rude, let alone about something as conversationally trivial but personally important as one's place of birth.

If there weren't a racial element, the conversation would be baffling. "Where are you from?" "Chicago" "No where are you REALLY from" is a conversation only ever had between a white person and a non-white, because it would not make sense to randomly accuse someone of lying about their place of origin unless you're a racist trying to make someone feel out of place.

So, when I've had the same conversation hundreds of times in my life, but I'm white, what are the people trying to do to me?

 

[ZiprHead]

Let me get this straight. A white lady is rude to a black person. The black person publicly complains.

How is the worthy of an OP in “Politics”? And why would an OP focus on the behaviour of one the people?

Yup, something you'd see in the gossip column.

It's all over the British press, including multiple stories in the BBC.

The Brits are obsessed with anything that has to do with royalty. That doesn't make it not gossip.

 

[Metaphor]

Let me get this straight. A white lady is rude to a black person. The black person publicly complains.

How is the worthy of an OP in “Politics”? And why would an OP focus on the behaviour of one the people?

I don't think the motivations for the OP are a mystery to you. I think you already have an opinion about precisely why.

The OP focused on Ngozi because Ngozi was the one who made the public complaint, Ngozi was the one who has appeared on several media outlets, and the story is told entirely from Ngozi's point of view. I knew Lady Hussey would be defended by nobody and her rude behaviour would be commented on, so there was no need to elaborate on that.

It seems to me the Politics part of it is extremely obvious. Ngozi is using this as an example of institutional racism. On the other hand, I use it to illustrate the power that accusations of racism hold: the immediate capitulation of the palace and the retirement of somebody who had worked for the palace for sixty years. We again get the 'words are violence' rhetoric.

 

[Metaphor]

Let me get this straight. A white lady is rude to a black person. The black person publicly complains.

How is the worthy of an OP in “Politics”? And why would an OP focus on the behaviour of one the people?

Yup, something you'd see in the gossip column.

It's all over the British press, including multiple stories in the BBC.

The Brits are obsessed with anything that has to do with royalty. That doesn't make it not gossip.

That may be true, but that doesn't mean it's not political.

 

[TomC]

In the global scheme of socio-politics, and how will this impact history,

Who matters more:
Kanye West or Lady Susan Hussey?

I'm giggling at both. Black guy being stupid about Jewish guys, or White woman being stupid about black Brits?

Humans being stupid is so common it shouldn't be funny anymore. But it is.
Tom

 

[Rhea]

Well, I think we’ve come around to a good summation of the events.

The dead Queen’s erstwhile lady in waiting has resigned from a post that no longer exists because she was unconscionably rude in publicly interrogating a Black woman she had just met, about the woman’s immigration history, deliberately trying to get her to give information she clearly did not want to give, and Metaphor thinks she was rude and wrong to do this and it’s the Black Lady’s fault.


On a serious note -

It seems the outrage from some posters is that they feel the Black lady did it on purpose as a form of entrapment, while the white lady was persistently, aggressively rude just as a matter of… personality? Entitlement? And that the entrapment of Black lady is significantly more egregious than the entitlement and aggression of the White lady, which surely has only ever happened this one time, for certain. At least that’s one possible explanation for why they spend so much time attacking the behavior of the Black woman while appending, the white woman was also wrong to the end and acting outraged that no one noticed their generous equity.

Whereas the responses from other posters seem to convey that no matter what a person is wearing, it is always rude to interrogate them and accuse them of being wrong about what they call “home”. Politesse’s example helps convey this reaction:

If there weren't a racial element, the conversation would be baffling. "Where are you from?" "Chicago" "No where are you REALLY from" is a conversation only ever had between a white person and a non-white, because it would not make sense to randomly accuse someone of lying about their place of origin unless you're a racist trying to make someone feel out of place.

 

[Rhea]

But, if you are dying top see what she was wearing, this is it:
View attachment 41320

Wait - THAT’S the “non-British garb”???


AYFKM?

 

[Metaphor]

Wait - THAT’S the “non-British garb”???

Yes.

AYFKM?

No.

 

[Metaphor]

Well, I think we’ve come around to a good summation of the events.

The dead Queen’s erstwhile lady in waiting has resigned from a post that no longer exists because she was unconscionably rude in publicly interrogating a Black woman she had just met, about the woman’s immigration history, deliberately trying to get her to give information she clearly did not want to give, and Metaphor thinks she was rude and wrong to do this and it’s the Black Lady’s fault.

You didn't read my OP or any of my responses, did you?

On a serious note -

It seems the outrage from some posters is that they feel the Black lady did it on purpose as a form of entrapment,

The black woman has a name - Ngozi Fulani.

I would not call it 'entrapment'. I would say, from my perspective as somebody who has been in similar exchanges hundreds of times, Ngozi was deliberately not getting the point.

while the white lady was persistently, aggressively rude just as a matter of… personality? Entitlement?

I would say it is a combination of entitlement and personality. Hussey was asking about ethnic and cultural heritage, but she did not get the hint that Fulani did not want to give it to her.

And that the entrapment of Black lady is significantly more egregious than the entitlement and aggression of the White lady,

These people have names. They are not interchangeable cogs in a machine.

which surely has only ever happened this one time, for certain. At least that’s one possible explanation for why they spend so much time attacking the behavior of the Black woman while appending, the white woman was also wrong to the end and acting outraged that no one noticed their generous equity.

Is the 'they' referring to me?

Whereas the responses from other posters seem to convey that no matter what a person is wearing, it is always rude to interrogate them and accuse them of being wrong about what they call “home”.

Rhea, I have been in Fulani's position in such exchanges hundreds of times in my life. I did not say Hussey's behaviour was anything but oblivious and rude.

 

[Toni]

Wait - THAT’S the “non-British garb”???

Yes.

AYFKM?

No.

Wow.

And exactly what the fuck does it matter?

 

[Toni]

Well, I think we’ve come around to a good summation of the events.

The dead Queen’s erstwhile lady in waiting has resigned from a post that no longer exists because she was unconscionably rude in publicly interrogating a Black woman she had just met, about the woman’s immigration history, deliberately trying to get her to give information she clearly did not want to give, and Metaphor thinks she was rude and wrong to do this and it’s the Black Lady’s fault.

You didn't read my OP or any of my responses, did you?

On a serious note -

It seems the outrage from some posters is that they feel the Black lady did it on purpose as a form of entrapment,

The black woman has a name - Ngozi Fulani.

I would not call it 'entrapment'. I would say, from my perspective as somebody who has been in similar exchanges hundreds of times, Ngozi was deliberately not getting the point.

while the white lady was persistently, aggressively rude just as a matter of… personality? Entitlement?

I would say it is a combination of entitlement and personality. Hussey was asking about ethnic and cultural heritage, but she did not get the hint that Fulani did not want to give it to her.

And that the entrapment of Black lady is significantly more egregious than the entitlement and aggression of the White lady,

These people have names. They are not interchangeable cogs in a machine.

which surely has only ever happened this one time, for certain. At least that’s one possible explanation for why they spend so much time attacking the behavior of the Black woman while appending, the white woman was also wrong to the end and acting outraged that no one noticed their generous equity.

Is the 'they' referring to me?

Whereas the responses from other posters seem to convey that no matter what a person is wearing, it is always rude to interrogate them and accuse them of being wrong about what they call “home”.

Rhea, I have been in Fulani's position in such exchanges hundreds of times in my life. I did not say Hussey's behaviour was anything but oblivious and rude.

Not exactly her position: unless I am extremely wrong, you are not black. You are not descended from peoples who were stolen/kidnapped and enslaved, your ancestry stolen and obliterated, by design. AFAIK, your ancestors were not treated as livestock—less than livestock. Less than fully human.

 

[Rhea]

Well, I think we’ve come around to a good summation of the events.

The dead Queen’s erstwhile lady in waiting has resigned from a post that no longer exists because she was unconscionably rude in publicly interrogating a Black woman she had just met, about the woman’s immigration history, deliberately trying to get her to give information she clearly did not want to give, and Metaphor thinks she was rude and wrong to do this and it’s the Black Lady’s fault.

You didn't read my OP or any of my responses, did you?

Some of your replies came up while I was composing that. I almost edited, but figured I’d be too late. So I acknowledge your description of why you only focused on the wrongs of Fulani. It doesn’t feel like a valid reason to focus only on one, but I acknowledge that you gave what feels like a reason to you.

And that the entrapment of Black lady is significantly more egregious than the entitlement and aggression of the White lady,

These people have names. They are not interchangeable cogs in a machine.

I’m not always good at names, so I was tryng to be careful to claariify which “she” I meant While not using names. It takes me a long time to go back and get names.

which surely has only ever happened this one time, for certain. At least that’s one possible explanation for why they spend so much time attacking the behavior of the Black woman while appending, the white woman was also wrong to the end and acting outraged that no one noticed their generous equity.

Is the 'they' referring to me?

No, the more-than-one person on this thread who are claiming Fulani is the far greater wrong here.

Whereas the responses from other posters seem to convey that no matter what a person is wearing, it is always rude to interrogate them and accuse them of being wrong about what they call “home”.

Rhea, I have been in Fulani's position in such exchanges hundreds of times in my life. I did not say Hussey's behaviour was anything but oblivious and rude.

I can see why you’d want that to stand alone as if it’s the main point in your contributions to this thread. But you are forced to operate in the space that you made; where Fulani’s transgressions are given front page above the fold and 30 column inches and Hussey’s are on D-25 in a single column inch underneath the legal ads. It’s not an accident that you chose this, as evidenced by your continued use.

You have conveyed:
FULANI IS WRONG WRONG WRONG
Hussey also wrong


Are you asking us to ignore this?

 

[TomC]

Not exactly her position: unless I am extremely wrong, you are not black. You are not descended from peoples who were stolen/kidnapped and enslaved, your ancestry stolen and obliterated, by design. AFAIK, your ancestors were not treated as livestock—less than livestock. Less than fully human.

This looks like a summation of most of the arguments on this thread.

If two people behave badly, one white and one black, it's obviously the white one who is wrong.
Because we all know what those people are like.
Tom

 

[Rhea]

Rhea, I have been in Fulani's position in such exchanges hundreds of times in my life. I did not say Hussey's behaviour was anything but oblivious and rude.

Sounds like we are in agreement, then. Hussey was unconscionably rude. And that’s the end of the story.

 

[Bomb#20]

Not exactly her position: unless I am extremely wrong, you are not black. You are not descended from peoples who were stolen/kidnapped and enslaved, your ancestry stolen and obliterated, by design. AFAIK, your ancestors were not treated as livestock—less than livestock. Less than fully human.

Has it never occurred to you to wonder why the word for forced laborer is "slave"?

Slavs were were stolen, kidnapped, enslaved, and treated as livestock so often through medieval European history that we named the institution after them.

 

[TomC]

Sounds like we are in agreement, then. Hussey was unconscionably rude. And that’s the end of the story.

Exactly.
Nothing else to say.


At least not here.
Tom

 

[Rhea]

Not exactly her position: unless I am extremely wrong, you are not black. You are not descended from peoples who were stolen/kidnapped and enslaved, your ancestry stolen and obliterated, by design. AFAIK, your ancestors were not treated as livestock—less than livestock. Less than fully human.

This looks like a summation of most of the arguments on this thread.

If two people behave badly, one white and one black, it's obviously the white one who is wrong.
Because we all know what those people are like.
Tom

No, Tom. There’s a really serious and very real difference in how Black people (immigrants or not) are treated and how white immigrants are treated and how local born whites are treated.

In many former British empire areas, and Britain itself, as this case shows, but most especially in America as we discuss in other threads. But I’ll focus on this thread.

We can’t hold our hands over our eyes and pretend they do not face repeated, ongoing, aggressive different treatment. They will react from a heightened awareness becaue it happens A LOT.

Some people reveal in their comments that they either don’t understand or don’t believe the amount of agressive othering that happens. Toni was trying to help understanding by expressing some of the differences.

They ae real, Tom.

 

[Rhea]

Not exactly her position: unless I am extremely wrong, you are not black. You are not descended from peoples who were stolen/kidnapped and enslaved, your ancestry stolen and obliterated, by design. AFAIK, your ancestors were not treated as livestock—less than livestock. Less than fully human.

Has it never occurred to you to wonder why the word for forced laborer is "slave"?

Slavs were were stolen, kidnapped, enslaved, and treated as livestock so often through medieval European history that we named the institution after them.

Interesting. I did not know that.

Which makes me wonder about the willingness to blame someone who is reacting negatively to this aggression.