Politics Where are you really from?

[laughing dog]

It is not at all surprising to me that the Palace responded the way it did. The UK, indeed the entire Anglosphere, is in hair-trigger readiness to avoid the stain of being accused of racism.

Has it occurred to you that there is a possibility that the Lady Hussey and/or the palace personnel know more about what happened than you?

Well, I suspect Hussey knows more about it than I do, since she was a first party to the event. But we don't have Hussey's response or comments to the event.

You "suspect"? Wow.

You really don't know what the word means?
Tom

I do. Apparently you don't. It means to have an idea but not to know for sure.

laughing dog, I'm going to express an opinion here: your relentless attacks on me are obsessive and deranged.

It takes a special sense of narcissism to conclude a response to someone else is an attack on you.

I could also have said "I'll bet she knows more", which is another way of saying "Yes, she knows more and I am confident of that".

Please find below the definition of the verb 'suspect', which laughing dog thought warranted a 'wow'.

suspect
verb [ T ]


uk

/səˈspekt/ us

/səˈspekt/

suspect verb [T] (THINK LIKELY)​

B2
to think or believe something to be true or probable:
So far, the police do not suspect foul play.
[ + (that) ] We had no reason to suspect (that) he might try to kill himself.
"Do you think she'll have told them?" "I suspect not/so."

And - by the way - it would not be unreasonable for Hussey to know even less than I do. She may not remember the conversation at all. She probably interacted with dozens of people and is in her 80s.

Your pathetic pedantry aside, playing the age card is an "HOLY TOLEDO WOW".

It is unreasonable to think someone in a different hemisphere knows more about an incident than an actual participant who also has access to the same media report as you. In fact, it is not unreasonable to describe your defense as obsessively deranged.

 

[Metaphor]

I don't understand why so much fuss is being made about Fulani's reaction, her choice of clothing, and that fact that she had changed her name.

No fuss is being made over Fulani's name change and choice of clothing at all, certainly not by anyone on this board, except to object that I ever mentioned it. The reason I mentioned it is in the OP.

The fact that you mentioned her clothing style and name change did kind of stand out to me. Why would that bother you?

What makes you think it bothers me?

AFAIK, Lady Hussey didn't even know she had changed her name and didn't mention her clothing choices. So it did look to me like you were making a fuss by bringing in irrelevant details that had nothing really to do with the scandal per se. Were you just trying to make the case that Fulani was the one with a bad attitude?

I am saying that there is evidence that Fulani makes a point of pride about her ethnic and cultural heritage by the name she chose, the clothes she wears, and the very charity she was there representing.

And so, when somebody was clearly enquiring about it, I expect Fulani to have picked up on that.

I have no reason to believe that she would have been anything but delighted to have a civil conversation with Lady Hussey that did not involve going over her family background and origins.

None of this should make any difference at all, given that Lady Hussey wasn't just white woman asking awkward questions. She was a representative of Buckingham Palace and the staff that was hosting the conference. Moreover, others who witnessed the conversation also felt that Fulani was being treated rudely.

Did they?

Apparently. The two that I've seen mentioned were Mandu Reid, leader of the Women's Equality Party, and Nazir Afzal, Chancellor of the University of Manchester. However, I don't know whether Afzal actually witnessed the exchange. He said that Lady Hussey had also asked him about his origins and put her off by saying "Manchester currently". But he told reporters: "racism is never far away".

Did Reid witness the exchange?

Fulani's initial response was to say that she was from "Sistah Space"--the organization that she was representing at the event--but Lady Hussey was clearly interested in her racial background and her immigration status. So she wasn't just being rude to an attendee at the event she was supposed to be helping with, but she ended up completely upstaging it by embarrassing the royal family, which was already reeling from charges of racism in the press.

What is significant here is that Lady Hussey quickly resigned, probably at the request of the royals, and Buckingham Palace apologized to Fulani for the way she was treated. A spokesman for Prince William himself said:

“Racism has no place in our society, these comments were unacceptable. It’s right that the individual concerned has stepped down.”

So the real scandal isn't about Fulani's reaction. The main scandal is that Lady Hussey, a formerly distinguished official in Buckingham Palace, was so insensitive as to harrass a woman whom she apparently felt was not fully entitled to be there because of the way that woman looked to her. And then there is the scandal that so many have rushed to defend Hussey's behavior as somehow just a little rude rather than insultingly racist. Buckingham Palace and the royals actually admitted that it was racist.

It is not at all surprising to me that the Palace responded the way it did. The UK, indeed the entire Anglosphere, is in hair-trigger readiness to avoid the stain of being accused of racism.

So you think they were just being insincere when they apologized and characterized Lady Hussey's behavior as "racism"?

Not necessarily. They could be true believers. But if they didn't believe it was racism, it would be far safer for them to throw Hussey under the bus, wouldn't it?

Everyone was just pretending that it was racist because they were too afraid to say otherwise?

Not necessarily. They could be true believers. But sometimes the emperor has no clothes, but people are petrified from pointing it out.

I take their apologies at face value, so we'll just have to disagree on that. I understand that you and a few others here don't see Lady Hussey's behavior as racist, even though most people seem to agree with Buckingham Palace, the Royal Family, most UK government officials, and the press that it was.

No, I don't see it as racist. In fact, I see an immediate characterisation of it as racist, with no conversation entered into, and the wailing and gnashing of teeth over it, and the multiple sympathetic national media appearances by Fulani over it, and the immediate resignation of Hussey, as evidence of hair-trigger hysteria in the Anglosphere on the question of racism.

 

[TomC]

You asked me what what “Lady“ What’s Her Ass asked Fulani.

No I didn't.
That's a big problem in these threads.

I didn't ask you what Ms Hussey asked Fulani. I know that you don't know either.

But instead of responding to anything I actually said, you make up stuff, attribute to me, and talk about that.
Tom

 

[pood]

No, I don't see it as racist.

Of course you don’t.

 

[Metaphor]

It is not at all surprising to me that the Palace responded the way it did. The UK, indeed the entire Anglosphere, is in hair-trigger readiness to avoid the stain of being accused of racism.

Has it occurred to you that there is a possibility that the Lady Hussey and/or the palace personnel know more about what happened than you?

Well, I suspect Hussey knows more about it than I do, since she was a first party to the event. But we don't have Hussey's response or comments to the event.

You "suspect"? Wow.

You really don't know what the word means?
Tom

I do. Apparently you don't. It means to have an idea but not to know for sure.

laughing dog, I'm going to express an opinion here: your relentless attacks on me are obsessive and deranged.

It takes a special sense of narcissism to conclude a response to someone else is an attack on you.

You attacked my use of the word 'suspect'. I will repeat what I said earlier: to take a perfectly cromulent use of the word 'suspect' and respond to it with 'wow', as if the use were somehow wrong or offensive, is a sign that you have a deranged obsession with attacking anything I write.

I could also have said "I'll bet she knows more", which is another way of saying "Yes, she knows more and I am confident of that".

Please find below the definition of the verb 'suspect', which laughing dog thought warranted a 'wow'.

suspect
verb [ T ]


uk

/səˈspekt/ us

/səˈspekt/

suspect verb [T] (THINK LIKELY)​

B2
to think or believe something to be true or probable:
So far, the police do not suspect foul play.
[ + (that) ] We had no reason to suspect (that) he might try to kill himself.
"Do you think she'll have told them?" "I suspect not/so."

And - by the way - it would not be unreasonable for Hussey to know even less than I do. She may not remember the conversation at all. She probably interacted with dozens of people and is in her 80s.

Your pathetic pedantry aside, playing the age card is an "HOLY TOLEDO WOW".

Sure Jan.

It is unreasonable to think someone in a different hemisphere knows more about an incident than an actual participant who also has access to the same media report as you. In fact, it is not unreasonable to describe your defense as obsessively deranged.

Sure Jan.

 

[pood]

If Lady What’s Her Ass disputes them, I sure she would have said so by now.

Maybe Ms Hussey isn't an attention whore and professional victim.

That would explain why Fulani is all over the media and Hussey is not.
Tom

Oh, I see. Now the black person is an attention whore. My goodness, how revealing.

 

[Copernicus]

I don't understand why so much fuss is being made about Fulani's reaction, her choice of clothing, and that fact that she had changed her name.

What fuss is there, other than Fulina going on the news and social media?

Fulani is making the fuss.
Tom

I don't know whether she approached the press first, or they approached her after hearing about the incident from others. However, she wasn't the only one who thought the behavior of Lady Hussey at an official event hosted by Buckingham Palace was shocking and racist. Since then, I've seen conservative voices in social media trying to put the blame on Fulani for speaking out about her feelings. Perhaps people would react a bit more sympathetically if the Chancellor of Manchester University had been the one to complain to the press about Lady Hussey accosting him with the same question. He handled it better. Like Ngozi Fulani, he was born in England, but his family origin was Afghanistan. Not being a black woman, he might have felt a little more sanguine about it, and Lady Hussey didn't interrogate him as vigorously as she did Fulani. She let it go when he said he was from Manchester.

 

[pood]

You asked me what what “Lady“ What’s Her Ass asked Fulani.

No I didn't.
That's a big problem in these threads.

I didn't ask you what Ms Hussey asked Fulani.
Tom

I quote you, directed to me, from upthread:

What questions did Ms Hussey ask?
Tom

 

[pood]

Is there some subtle alternative meaning to ”what questions did Ms Hussey ask” that eludes me?

 

[TomC]

Oh, I see. Now the black person is an attention whore. My goodness, how revealing.

And once again.
You make up stuff, attribute it to me, ignore what I actually said, and start in with the character assertions.

Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

I did not say that nor do I think that.

I notice you feel the need to say that quite a lot. Have you ever wondered why?

Because IIDB members commonly make demonstrably false statements about other members.

This is just one example.
Tom

What false statement about another member is in the sentence I wrote above?

 

[laughing dog]

You attacked my use of the word 'suspect'.

I did not attack anything.

I will repeat what I said earlier: to take a perfectly cromulent use of the word 'suspect' and respond to it with 'wow', as if the use were somehow wrong or offensive, is a sign that you have a deranged obsession with attacking anything I write.

Wow, fucking Wow. I am not responsible for your over-the-top (I should I use the term "deranged"?) reactions to imagined attacks. Perhaps you might consider that your outlandish ("deranged"?) protests have the opposite effect of what you intend?

 

[TomC]

I did not say that nor do I think that.

I notice you feel the need to say that quite a lot. Have you ever wondered why?

Because IIDB members commonly make demonstrably false statements about other members.

This is just one example.
Tom

What false statement about another member is in the sentence I wrote above?

There was not one in that sentence.
Tom

 

[Copernicus]

I don't understand why so much fuss is being made about Fulani's reaction, her choice of clothing, and that fact that she had changed her name.

No fuss is being made over Fulani's name change and choice of clothing at all, certainly not by anyone on this board, except to object that I ever mentioned it. The reason I mentioned it is in the OP.

The fact that you mentioned her clothing style and name change did kind of stand out to me. Why would that bother you?

What makes you think it bothers me?

AFAIK, her name didn't bother Lady Hussey, because she didn't know it until she read the name tag. She wouldn't have known that Fulani had undergone a name change in the past. Also, there is no report that her clothes were an issue for Hussey. You seemed bothered by both, since you brought them up gratuitously.

AFAIK, Lady Hussey didn't even know she had changed her name and didn't mention her clothing choices. So it did look to me like you were making a fuss by bringing in irrelevant details that had nothing really to do with the scandal per se. Were you just trying to make the case that Fulani was the one with a bad attitude?

I am saying that there is evidence that Fulani makes a point of pride about her ethnic and cultural heritage by the name she chose, the clothes she wears, and the very charity she was there representing.

And so, when somebody was clearly enquiring about it, I expect Fulani to have picked up on that.

Being proud of one's ethnic and cultural heritage is not usually considered a bad thing. Hussey was not enquiring her about her name or her clothing. She was asking whether Fulani was even British and where she was "really from". Most people don't see that as a normal or polite way to start up a conversation with a stranger.

I have no reason to believe that she would have been anything but delighted to have a civil conversation with Lady Hussey that did not involve going over her family background and origins.

None of this should make any difference at all, given that Lady Hussey wasn't just white woman asking awkward questions. She was a representative of Buckingham Palace and the staff that was hosting the conference. Moreover, others who witnessed the conversation also felt that Fulani was being treated rudely.

Did they?

Apparently. The two that I've seen mentioned were Mandu Reid, leader of the Women's Equality Party, and Nazir Afzal, Chancellor of the University of Manchester. However, I don't know whether Afzal actually witnessed the exchange. He said that Lady Hussey had also asked him about his origins and put her off by saying "Manchester currently". But he told reporters: "racism is never far away".

Did Reid witness the exchange?

All I know is what I read in the news. I provided you with a link to my source, which called her an "eyewitness".

Fulani's initial response was to say that she was from "Sistah Space"--the organization that she was representing at the event--but Lady Hussey was clearly interested in her racial background and her immigration status. So she wasn't just being rude to an attendee at the event she was supposed to be helping with, but she ended up completely upstaging it by embarrassing the royal family, which was already reeling from charges of racism in the press.

What is significant here is that Lady Hussey quickly resigned, probably at the request of the royals, and Buckingham Palace apologized to Fulani for the way she was treated. A spokesman for Prince William himself said:

“Racism has no place in our society, these comments were unacceptable. It’s right that the individual concerned has stepped down.”

So the real scandal isn't about Fulani's reaction. The main scandal is that Lady Hussey, a formerly distinguished official in Buckingham Palace, was so insensitive as to harrass a woman whom she apparently felt was not fully entitled to be there because of the way that woman looked to her. And then there is the scandal that so many have rushed to defend Hussey's behavior as somehow just a little rude rather than insultingly racist. Buckingham Palace and the royals actually admitted that it was racist.

It is not at all surprising to me that the Palace responded the way it did. The UK, indeed the entire Anglosphere, is in hair-trigger readiness to avoid the stain of being accused of racism.

So you think they were just being insincere when they apologized and characterized Lady Hussey's behavior as "racism"?

Not necessarily. They could be true believers. But if they didn't believe it was racism, it would be far safer for them to throw Hussey under the bus, wouldn't it?

Absolutely not. She had been a highly respected member of Buckingham Palace and the late Queen, so it would have been safer for them to use more neutral language. It certainly upset a lot of conservatives like yourself. You were so upset that you started a thread on the issue.

Everyone was just pretending that it was racist because they were too afraid to say otherwise?

Not necessarily. They could be true believers. But sometimes the emperor has no clothes, but people are petrified from pointing it out.

Actually, I see it differently. I think it took courage for them to admit that it was racist and to have her resign her position. That just called more attention to the scandal. They could have tried harder to excuse her behavior as something of an aberration and downplay it, as they had done in the past.

I take their apologies at face value, so we'll just have to disagree on that. I understand that you and a few others here don't see Lady Hussey's behavior as racist, even though most people seem to agree with Buckingham Palace, the Royal Family, most UK government officials, and the press that it was.

No, I don't see it as racist. In fact, I see an immediate characterisation of it as racist, with no conversation entered into, and the wailing and gnashing of teeth over it, and the multiple sympathetic national media appearances by Fulani over it, and the immediate resignation of Hussey, as evidence of hair-trigger hysteria in the Anglosphere on the question of racism.

I'm glad that Buckingham Palace and the Royals are taking this incident far more seriously than you are. They understand exactly how bad it looked. I don't think that you do, however.

 

[Toni]

Silly woman. She should just put up with the racist quizzing by an elderly woman in a professional setting.

Silly woman.
She should put up with a professional victim who will take her case to the court of The Internet.

That part keeps being overlooked: this was not some over sensitive woman publicly embarrassing a guest or host at a social gathering for being a bit out of touch with modern thinking and relying too heavily on the privileges afforded someone of her age and social standing. This exchange happened in a professional setting.

What exchange?

You are clearly assuming that Fulani's version of what happened is true and complete.
Accurate.

Why is that?
Tom

I’ve seen/heard similar exchanges—different people and setting obviously. Like most people, I have family members who are not necessarily full of social graces or unable to discern when it is impolite to ask personal or prying questions—of family members or perfect strangers. M

More importantly, Lady Hussey stepped down from her official duties, indicating some displeasure on the part of the royals who are no doubt well aware of her beliefs about a variety of social issues. It is almost certain she was urged to do so by the royal family. For one thing, they are not so stupid to not realize that the monarchy is an anachronism and is in danger of being removed—perhaps by not so gentle means if they and their intimates are seen as being privileged racists who berate heads of charitable organizations for having brown skin.

And as well, there are serious fractures between Harry and Megan vs the part of the family on the other side of the pond, in part, at least, to inquiries about their child’s skin tone—which they took as racist. I’m going out on a limb here and offer the opinion that Harry certainly knows which, if any, of his family members, including godmothers, might harbor racist beliefs, however unconscious, certainly more than you or I do. And which are likely to not keep said beliefs to themselves. Royal or not, I am somewhat confident that the estrangement is unpleasant for the brothers and also for their father and perhaps their cousins as well. It is for most families.


Why do you denigrate as a ‘professional victim’ someone who dared speak out about inappropriate behavior that setting and further denigrate a person as a professional setting—at Buckingham Palace? By someone who would be taken as a representative of the royal family? Cannot even you see how very far out of reason such behavior was.are black people supposed to just shut up and be grateful we let them walk among white people?

Why don’t you assume that what she reported was accurate? I have not seen any contradiction in the press.

 

[Toni]

I don't understand why so much fuss is being made about Fulani's reaction, her choice of clothing, and that fact that she had changed her name.

What fuss is there, other than Fulina going on the news and social media?

Fulani is making the fuss.
Tom

Silly woman. She should just put up with the racist quizzing by an elderly woman in a professional setting.

That part keeps being overlooked: this was not however, the people in question were not coworkers. some over sensitive woman publicly embarrassing a guest or host at a social gathering for being a bit out of touch with modern thinking and relying too heavily on the privileges afforded someone of her age and social standing. This exchange happened in a professional setting.

Toni, people in workplaces are allowed to enquire about the cultural and ethnic heritage of other people. It happens in my workplace. It happens everywhere.

It does indeed!

However the two women were not coworkers talking over coffee in the break room. One was representing the Royal Family at an official function and was quizzing the other to prove her theory that she wasn’t really British.

 

[Metaphor]

You attacked my use of the word 'suspect'.

I did not attack anything.

Sure Jan. You just took it out of the sentence I used it in, put it in inverted quotas, and followed up with 'wow'.

That wasn't an attack. That was you expressing your admiration of my correct use of the verb 'suspect'.

I will repeat what I said earlier: to take a perfectly cromulent use of the word 'suspect' and respond to it with 'wow', as if the use were somehow wrong or offensive, is a sign that you have a deranged obsession with attacking anything I write.

Wow, fucking Wow. I am not responsible for your over-the-top (I should I use the term "deranged"?) reactions to imagined attacks. Perhaps you might consider that your outlandish ("deranged"?) protests have the opposite effect of what you intend?

I intend to call out your deranged compulsion with attacking every post I make.

 

[Metaphor]

I don't understand why so much fuss is being made about Fulani's reaction, her choice of clothing, and that fact that she had changed her name.

What fuss is there, other than Fulina going on the news and social media?

Fulani is making the fuss.
Tom

Silly woman. She should just put up with the racist quizzing by an elderly woman in a professional setting.

That part keeps being overlooked: this was not however, the people in question were not coworkers. some over sensitive woman publicly embarrassing a guest or host at a social gathering for being a bit out of touch with modern thinking and relying too heavily on the privileges afforded someone of her age and social standing. This exchange happened in a professional setting.

Toni, people in workplaces are allowed to enquire about the cultural and ethnic heritage of other people. It happens in my workplace. It happens everywhere.

It does indeed!

However the two women were not coworkers talking over coffee in the break room. One was representing the Royal Family at an official function and was quizzing the other to prove her theory that she wasn’t really British.

Your characterisation of Hussey's motives are your own.

 

[ZiprHead]

I did not say that nor do I think that.

I notice you feel the need to say that quite a lot. Have you ever wondered why?

Because IIDB members commonly make demonstrably false statements about other members.

This is just one example.
Tom

What false statement about another member is in the sentence I wrote above?

There was not one in that sentence.
Tom

Then why did you say "This is just one example." in response to my post?

 

[TomC]

I did not say that nor do I think that.

I notice you feel the need to say that quite a lot. Have you ever wondered why?

Because IIDB members commonly make demonstrably false statements about other members.

This is just one example.
Tom

What false statement about another member is in the sentence I wrote above?

There was not one in that sentence.
Tom

Then why did you say "This is just one example." in response to my post?

I was referring to the post that Metaphor was quoting.

IIDB members commonly post demonstrably false statements about other posters. That's what Metaphor and I were referring to.
Not that one post you made.