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Are you saying this person doesn't really identify as trans, they just wanted to win a contest? Or that they do identify as a woman and they are fat and ugly and shouldn't have won this contest?

Also, why do we even still have pageants?
 
It is quite amazing how these dudes keep pushing real woman/girls out of female spaces.

What is even more amazing is the willingness of so many women to not only go along with it but go absolutely mental when a woman dares to question it.
But why shouldn't women want men in once female-only spaces?

FlxOFVZXkAEOLa6
 
The folks who say stuff like "transwomen are women" are systematically unable to explain what they mean by the word "women".
No, we simply understand that some concepts, like "woman" and "furry" are fundamentally arbitrary, and that even while some people have tendencies that naturally lead them to adoption of such cultural systems, it is incorrect to gate participation on comorbidities to those who have such tendencies.

As we have discussed widely, you are also systematically unable to define "woman".
Well, in the first place, that's not "No,", that's "Yes,". When you wrote the word "also", that was you stipulating that the folks who say stuff like "transwomen are women" are systematically unable to explain what they mean by the word "women". So quit making believe you've pointed out an error in my post.

In the second place, the fact that some concepts like "woman" and "furry" are fundamentally arbitrary in no way implies that they mean whatever bloody thing activists pull out of their asses and claim they mean. Languages are allowed to have arbitrary labels for arbitrary concepts with arbitrary definitions; that doesn't make the incoherence of trans ideology's circular definitions vanish in a puff of illogic.

In the third place, when you say "it is incorrect to gate participation on comorbidities to those who have such tendencies" you appear to be making a moral judgment based on some is-to-ought inference, rather than a scientific claim about either human sexuality or linguistics. So if you intend to use that claim as a basis for further inferences you're going to need to show your work if you want your argument to amount to anything more than proof by blatant assertion.

And in the fourth place, you appear to be using "As we have discussed widely" to refer to you having made a claim about what I can or can't do, a claim that was derived from your own armchair philosophy's assertions about what sorts of concepts can and can't theoretically be communicated by ostensive definitions -- claims that appear to be wildly in conflict with empirical observation of language acquisition. Which is to say, yes, I can define "woman".

There are differences between people which exist naturally, surely, but none of these are exacly "woman". ... there is the hormone Testosterone <blah blah blah>
I have no doubt of your unlimited capacity to tell me ways not to define "woman", but they all have far more to do with your fantasy caricatures of your ideology's outgroup than they have to do with me.

Meaning is determined by use. "Woman" means whatever the great mass of fluent English speakers use it to mean. What they mean by it is "Something like one of those", where they have in mind a bunch of people they've observed. A lower bound on the category is established by the people in the set of examples they worked from. Upper bounds on the category are established by the lower bounds on other categories in English that "woman" contrasts with semantically, such as "child" and "nonhuman" and "man". The specific criteria for "woman" are rediscovered by each language learner as a subconscious scientific process of forming hypotheses, testing what they predict about the usage of the other English speakers whom the language learner is acquiring English from, and discarding hypotheses that fail the test.

A "woman" is an adult human who satisfies criteria that typical fluent English speakers have learned by the above process to use as criteria to perceive people as belonging to the same arbitrary grammatical class of people, places and things that typical fluent English speakers would perceive Christina Brodersonia* as belonging to.

(* Christina Brodersonia is what in biology is called a "type specimen". It rarely makes much difference which organism is chosen as a type specimen. I could equally well have chosen "The person who gave birth to Jarhyn".)
 
Yet you reject using your body the way it was designed for use.
Our bodies were not designed.
Design may have been a poor word choice. Certainly human evolution has created us the way we are. Metaphor has rejected the way evolution has made us.
That's ridiculous. Humans were made by evolution. Everything about us is the way evolution made us. There is no Platonic Form of the Human Essence that human evolution was making, while something else was making actual humans to be pale cave shadows who fall short of that essence. No, evolution made Metaphor gayer than most of us every bit as much as it made him larger than most of us. You're making the same kind of mistake a Christian makes who says gays aren't following God's Will, as though anybody could possibly be different from however his omniscient and omnipotent Creator willed him to be.
You're saying about the same thing I said in my second sentence above. But disputing it and the same time. ???

I have no problem with that. What I object to is Metaphor's rejection of others who do the same as him. He downplays their "feelings" as if they do not matter yet they came to a similar choice as him through the same means. He clearly has a double standard.
:consternation2: Now being gay or trans is a choice, is it?
No. Evolution made Met gay. Evolution made trans people trans. Metaphor rejects the second statement. Thus the double standard.
 
Some fat bloke called Brian won the Greater Derry Beauty pageant;

A local beauty pageant is attracting ample mockery on social media after a trans-identified male was crowned the winner of the competition and awarded a scholarship intended for young women. Brían Nguyen, 19, was awarded the crown in the Miss Greater Derry pageant, held on November 8 in the Greater Derry area of New Hampshire. The competition is a locally-run event under the national Miss America series of pageants. In addition to winning the crown, Nguyen will receive the Miss Greater Derry Scholarship, a financial award established to support young women.

News

I hate to be mean but describing Brian as a beauty is a fucking stretch of epic proportions. Never the less, "she/he" won and will receive some sort of scholarship.



See if you can tell which contestant is Brian.

I'm guessing Brian is the one wearing the Greater Miss Derry sash.
 
Evolution made trans people trans.
But it didn’t make them opposite of their birth sex.
There you go again about the dangly bits.
You’re aware that your sex is in every cell of your body? That with a drop of blood forensic investigators know the sex of a perp or victim? That millennia old skeletal remains keep their sex? That humans are a sexually dimorphic species? Were the eunuchs of the Chinese imperial court not still men?

Progressive creationism is just as silly as the Christian/Muslim fundamentalist kind.
 
As has been discussed, none of these are exactly "woman" because "woman" is more a holistic culture built around rather than  of the actual tendency towards differences between people.
Is this true for all other female primates and mammals? If not, why not?
It is not. Because they have no such concept of gender in the first place. There are no real assigned gender roles in chimp society, and if an individual within a troupe wants to do something that a religion-blinded human would find offensive due to their assigned gender- like a male chimp spending too much time caring for a child, or getting a hand job from another male - there are no social barriers to their doing so. We know this, because we've seen both happen in the wild on many occasions.
Not entirely true. Some chimp societies probably do have assigned roles and they can get just as anti-heretical as humans.

We have certainly observed that chimps will do what they want, but they will also violently kill those who break with a chimp tribe's traditional values.

The difference is that those chimp tribe's don't seem to value gender role strictures the way humans do, at least in our history of observation.
 
Evolution made trans people trans.
But it didn’t make them opposite of their birth sex.
There you go again about the dangly bits.
You’re aware that your sex is in every cell of your body? That with a drop of blood forensic investigators know the sex of a perp or victim? That millennia old skeletal remains keep their sex? That humans are a sexually dimorphic species? Were the eunuchs of the Chinese imperial court not still men?

Progressive creationism is just as silly as the Christian/Muslim fundamentalist kind.
Except when they don't. Some people with XY genes can be born with the ability to become pregnant. Only precursor data is stored there, and the actual process that creates the body has no obligation to follow that plan, as the real outcome is a result of hormone among other things, not direct DNA signals.
 
What we have are a very small portion of the population that say they feel as if they are the opposite gender. That their identity is that of the opposite gender. It isn't a phase. It isn't a wish. It is engrained in their psyche. So instead of asking folks to explain what they mean when they say a "transwoman is a woman", perhaps you need to step back and ask yourself, what is within the entirety of a gender? How much is our gender is the chromosomes and how much in the DNA and how much in the neurology? And which part of that matters the most in our personal identity?
Is anyone really doubting that these trans identified people have something going on in their heads? When a married man with children one day announces he’d rather be seen as a woman, will take female hormones, and might even remove his penis, that’s probably built into his brain wiring. Because that’s just inconceivable to nearly all other men. But that doesn’t make him a woman. It makes him a trans identified man. Which is likely just the contemporary iteration of cross dressers. They get sexual arousal imagining themselves as women. (Real women don’t.)
Depends on what you mean by "something" in their heads. Certainly, they are different. However, different doesn't automatically mean wrong.

Biology is complex enough that there are myriad ways things can end up not as intended. There pretty much has to be either a male mind/female mind switch, or a pair of "volume" controls for male mind and female mind. It would be surprising to me if there was no path where the mind ends up different than the physical expression. I believe transgenderism is when this control ends up not matching the physical expression.

As with so many things that can go wrong in the body there is no solution, all we can do is live with it the best we can. This isn't the third reich where we ship off anyone imperfect to the camps. (Although I think there are a decent number on the right who would like to do exactly that.)
 
Because that’s just inconceivable to nearly all other men.
I, too, find it impossible to understand. I kinda get FtM, obviously being a dude is better. But I don't have to understand it in order to grasp that other people can do whatever they want, if it doesn't involve me. I don't understand why guys get so excited about hunting or football either.
Tom
I don't think anyone can know which gender it is better to be. I do agree that it's a case of to each their own. What you've got in your pants or who you have in your bedroom is only relevant to someone interested in being said bedroom.
 
I hate to be mean but describing Brian as a beauty is a ... stretch of epic proportions. Never the less, "she/he" won and will receive some sort of scholarship.
This guy won People Magazine's 1998 Most Beautiful Person in the World contest.

38WFP9ekPLWRrwPZfT5KfBLAp9y.jpg


It's possible that beauty is kind of subjective. :devil:
 
I hate to be mean but describing Brian as a beauty is a ... stretch of epic proportions. Never the less, "she/he" won and will receive some sort of scholarship.
This guy won People Magazine's 1998 Most Beautiful Person in the World contest.

38WFP9ekPLWRrwPZfT5KfBLAp9y.jpg


It's possible that beauty is kind of subjective. :devil:
Beauty is subjective. Usually a reference to beauty is a commentary on physical appearance but not always.

For example, some of the posts in this thread are pretty ugly, and I'm not talking about the font or enjambments.
 
What we have are a very small portion of the population that say they feel as if they are the opposite gender. That their identity is that of the opposite gender. It isn't a phase. It isn't a wish. It is engrained in their psyche. So instead of asking folks to explain what they mean when they say a "transwoman is a woman", perhaps you need to step back and ask yourself, what is within the entirety of a gender? How much is our gender is the chromosomes and how much in the DNA and how much in the neurology? And which part of that matters the most in our personal identity?
Is anyone really doubting that these trans identified people have something going on in their heads? When a married man with children one day announces he’d rather be seen as a woman, will take female hormones, and might even remove his penis, that’s probably built into his brain wiring. Because that’s just inconceivable to nearly all other men. But that doesn’t make him a woman. It makes him a trans identified man. Which is likely just the contemporary iteration of cross dressers. They get sexual arousal imagining themselves as women. (Real women don’t.)
Depends on what you mean by "something" in their heads. Certainly, they are different. However, different doesn't automatically mean wrong.

Biology is complex enough that there are myriad ways things can end up not as intended. There pretty much has to be either a male mind/female mind switch, or a pair of "volume" controls for male mind and female mind. It would be surprising to me if there was no path where the mind ends up different than the physical expression. I believe transgenderism is when this control ends up not matching the physical expression.

As with so many things that can go wrong in the body there is no solution, all we can do is live with it the best we can. This isn't the third reich where we ship off anyone imperfect to the camps. (Although I think there are a decent number on the right who would like to do exactly that.)
I think there is folly in thinking something has gone wrong or using words like "as intended".

There is no intent, there is just what happens and whether or not it works to propagate information in an enduring way.

When it works, traits (which may include or exclusively be purely memetic ones) are preserved, and when it doesn't, the idea stays in the past and not the present.

Sometimes what happens is further from the imaginary "norm(s)" and sometimes it is further away, but it is never exactly there.

This is the very beating heart of the process of evolution. To believe otherwise is to not believe in evolution, because this is how and why evolution happens.
 
Yet you reject using your body the way it was designed for use.
Our bodies were not designed.
Design may have been a poor word choice. Certainly human evolution has created us the way we are. Metaphor has rejected the way evolution has made us.
That's ridiculous. Humans were made by evolution. Everything about us is the way evolution made us. There is no Platonic Form of the Human Essence that human evolution was making, while something else was making actual humans to be pale cave shadows who fall short of that essence. No, evolution made Metaphor gayer than most of us every bit as much as it made him larger than most of us. You're making the same kind of mistake a Christian makes who says gays aren't following God's Will, as though anybody could possibly be different from however his omniscient and omnipotent Creator willed him to be.
You're saying about the same thing I said in my second sentence above. But disputing it and the same time. ???
I'm disputing your third sentence above, not your first or second. I took your claim that he rejected the way evolution has made us to be a reference to his seeking out same-sex partners while being of a species that relied on opposite-sex copulation to evolve, i.e., that you were tacitly assuming humans evolved to be heterosexual. If that's not what you meant, sorry to misunderstand. What is your evidence that "Metaphor has rejected the way evolution has made us"?

I have no problem with that. What I object to is Metaphor's rejection of others who do the same as him.
If I got your meaning wrong above, then I don't know what you meant by that sentence either. What is it that trans people do that you're calling "do the same as him"? Do trans people also "reject the way evolution has made us"? If that's what you mean, what does that refer to?

He downplays their "feelings" as if they do not matter yet they came to a similar choice as him through the same means. He clearly has a double standard.
:consternation2: Now being gay or trans is a choice, is it?
No. Evolution made Met gay. Evolution made trans people trans. Metaphor rejects the second statement. Thus the double standard.
Not sure if you're counting "No." as one of the statements. Be that as it may, what evidence do you have that Metaphor rejects either the statement "Evolution made Met gay." or the statement "Evolution made trans people trans."?
 
What we have are a very small portion of the population that say they feel as if they are the opposite gender. That their identity is that of the opposite gender. It isn't a phase. It isn't a wish. It is engrained in their psyche. So instead of asking folks to explain what they mean when they say a "transwoman is a woman", perhaps you need to step back and ask yourself, what is within the entirety of a gender? How much is our gender is the chromosomes and how much in the DNA and how much in the neurology? And which part of that matters the most in our personal identity?
Is anyone really doubting that these trans identified people have something going on in their heads? When a married man with children one day announces he’d rather be seen as a woman, will take female hormones, and might even remove his penis, that’s probably built into his brain wiring. Because that’s just inconceivable to nearly all other men. But that doesn’t make him a woman. It makes him a trans identified man. Which is likely just the contemporary iteration of cross dressers. They get sexual arousal imagining themselves as women. (Real women don’t.)
Depends on what you mean by "something" in their heads. Certainly, they are different. However, different doesn't automatically mean wrong.

Biology is complex enough that there are myriad ways things can end up not as intended. There pretty much has to be either a male mind/female mind switch, or a pair of "volume" controls for male mind and female mind. It would be surprising to me if there was no path where the mind ends up different than the physical expression. I believe transgenderism is when this control ends up not matching the physical expression.

As with so many things that can go wrong in the body there is no solution, all we can do is live with it the best we can. This isn't the third reich where we ship off anyone imperfect to the camps. (Although I think there are a decent number on the right who would like to do exactly that.)
I think there is folly in thinking something has gone wrong or using words like "as intended".
There certainly is a baseline, and there is certainly deviation from the baseline. And those deviations seem to be quite inevitable.

The only questions that remains are, how much do people not want to believe gender is more than genitals, how much do people want to belittle what people say they feel within the core of their being, and how much belittling does one want to do to those that are Standard of Deviations away from the peak of the bell?
 
You seem unwilling to accept any other physical aspect to gender.
Gender is subjective and kinda meaningless.
If you use differing sexualities and mistake it for gender, I can understand your confusion here.
Nah, I’m just gender fluid.
You mean you are wasting our time now, simplifying responses into one sentence blurts that don't actually address whatever the other person has said. All the while, attempting to look witty and humorous, but failing.
Whatever gender you claim to be, it does not change your biology.
You mean the genitals, why do you say biology when you only mean the genitals. You handwave neurology like it doesn't exist.
That’s fact. If you are born male, the coroner will find a male body.
Like I said, you want to ignore the most important organ in the body. Yes the coroner sees the shell. Not the person. The coroner sees a male... not a person that likes chips and salsa, 70s disco music, and Hungarian literature. Were all those things not real either?
 
I hate to be mean but describing Brian as a beauty is a ... stretch of epic proportions. Never the less, "she/he" won and will receive some sort of scholarship.
This guy won People Magazine's 1998 Most Beautiful Person in the World contest.

38WFP9ekPLWRrwPZfT5KfBLAp9y.jpg


It's possible that beauty is kind of subjective. :devil:
Really?

leonardo_dicaprio-52-8f2c1868c5e64dfa9922ee374edcad00.jpg


Looks like Leo has really let himself go.
 
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