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[ZiprHead]

He downplays their "feelings" as if they do not matter yet they came to a similar choice as him through the same means.

I dunno. Metaphor isn’t demanding that we ignore biology.

He is for trans folk.

 

[TomC]

No one did.

Y'all are having a conversation about me, but I'm not invited to comment?

Bomb#20 is kinda rude.

Speaking as a racist, misogynistic, Trump supporting, troll...

I'm not seeing "kinda rude" as a big deal on IIDB. It's the norm.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

No one did.

Y'all are having a conversation about me, but I'm not invited to comment?

Bomb#20 is kinda rude.

Speaking as a racist, misogynistic, Trump supporting, troll...

I'm not seeing "kinda rude" as a big deal on IIDB. It's the norm.

Tom is an enabler.

 

[ZiprHead]

He downplays their "feelings" as if they do not matter yet they came to a similar choice as him through the same means.

I dunno. Metaphor isn’t demanding that we ignore biology.

Actually he is. The brain and the "feelings" that come from it are biological in nature.

Nah. Metaphor, as I understanding it, is a male with same-sex attraction. He is not a male who says he's a female. He not demanding we accept that women have penises.

And there's the problem. Virtually no one is asking anyone to accept that males have penises. They are saying my brain is telling me my body is differant than what my brain tells me it should be and I wish to be respected as the gender my brain tells me I am. Metaphor rejects that.

I have no idea what it means to be "respected as the gender my brain tells me".

First, nobody can demand my 'respect'.

Second, if the demand for "respect" is "pretend (under the force of social censure and the force of the State) I am the sex I would have preferred to be and give me access to single-sex spaces on the basis of my gender identity", then hard no.

He downplays their "feelings" as if they do not matter yet they came to a similar choice as him through the same means.

I dunno. Metaphor isn’t demanding that we ignore biology.

Actually he is. The brain and the "feelings" that come from it are biological in nature.

We ignore the "feelings" of people all the time. "Feelings" do not qualify you to get whatever you demand. My biology would respond extremely positively to having sex with Henry Cavill but I do not get to demand Henry Cavill has sex with me.

Why do you keep bringing up "demand"? There are no demands in either of my posts.

Since Metaphor will no longer be defending himself it falls to others. You brought up demand in post #556 -- you claimed Metaphor is demanding that we ignore biology. (He wasn't demanding anything of the sort, by the way.)

I said nothing about demands in the posts I quoted.

And the absence of demands in your posts isn't on point. When Metaphor wrote " 'Feelings' do not qualify you to get whatever you demand.", he was not using "you" to mean you, ZiprHead, personally. He was using it in the idiomatic sense English commonly uses "you" in, to mean anyone at all, as one might say "You can't fight City Hall." or "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean nobody is out to get you." He was arguing that trans people's feeling that they'd like other people to think or at least pretend to think of them as a particular sex does not qualify them to get that service from others, even if they demand it, because feelings do not qualify anyone to get whatever they demand from others.

Metaphor also said this:

I have no idea what it means to be "respected as the gender my brain tells me".

This is the obvious bullshit that Metaphor tries to pass off.

First, nobody can demand my 'respect'.

Society demands respect in all kinds of situations. They demand you not cut in line in the supermarket checkout. They demand you drive on the proper side of the road. They demand you apologise if you accidentally bump into someone as you pass. Metaphor's stance is not noble. It's classic being a dick.

Second, if the demand for "respect" is "pretend (under the force of social censure and the force of the State) I am the sex I would have preferred to be... then hard no.

Metaphor claims he makes no demands but I am quite sure if he was walking down the street and a group of hooligans started calling him insulting names names in reference to his gayness he would be more than a little upset.

Being purposely called a name that doesn't reflect the gender your brain tells you you are is insulting to virtually everyone.

And before you bring up genitals, genitals do not think.

 

[TomC]

No one did.

Y'all are having a conversation about me, but I'm not invited to comment?

Bomb#20 is kinda rude.

Speaking as a racist, misogynistic, Trump supporting, troll...

I'm not seeing "kinda rude" as a big deal on IIDB. It's the norm.

Tom is an enabler.

Not any more.
I am no longer on staff, in case you didn't notice.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

No one did.

Y'all are having a conversation about me, but I'm not invited to comment?

Bomb#20 is kinda rude.

Speaking as a racist, misogynistic, Trump supporting, troll...

I'm not seeing "kinda rude" as a big deal on IIDB. It's the norm.

Tom is an enabler.

Not any more.
I am no longer on staff, in case you didn't notice.
Tom

Ah, happy retirement then! You lasted in that role about as long as I did, when they modded for a while me back at Secular Cafe.

 

[ZiprHead]

Apparently the case for Metaphor being hypocritical is proof-by-repetition. If you want your readers to "understand Metaphor's hypocrisy", don't just tell us we don't. Answer post #564.

Already done.

Design may have been a poor word choice. Certainly human evolution has created us the way we are. Metaphor has rejected the way evolution has made us. I have no problem with that. What I object to is Metaphor's rejection of others who do the same as him. He downplays their "feelings" as if they do not matter yet they came to a similar choice as him through the same means. He clearly has a double standard.

You should pay better attention.

 

[Oleg]

He downplays their "feelings" as if they do not matter yet they came to a similar choice as him through the same means.

I dunno. Metaphor isn’t demanding that we ignore biology.

He is for trans folk.

Biology is secondary to self-identity. Hurrah for post-modernism.

 

[Bomb#20]

Apparently the case for Metaphor being hypocritical is proof-by-repetition. If you want your readers to "understand Metaphor's hypocrisy", don't just tell us we don't. Answer post #564.

Already done.

Design may have been a poor word choice. Certainly human evolution has created us the way we are. Metaphor has rejected the way evolution has made us. I have no problem with that. What I object to is Metaphor's rejection of others who do the same as him. He downplays their "feelings" as if they do not matter yet they came to a similar choice as him through the same means. He clearly has a double standard.

You should pay better attention.

552 < 564

If you're proposing that Metaphor's argument in post #564 came somehow pre-refuted by what you'd written in post #552, well, what you'd written in post #552 has been refuted by me upthread in post #575. Your claim that Metaphor has rejected the way evolution has made us is incorrect and your claim that trans people came to a similar choice as him is incorrect. Your counterargument to post #575 was, in full, "Apparently you don't understand Metaphor's hypocrisy. Have you not read his posts?". That gives no support to your claims in post #552.

So no, you haven't already answered post #564.

 

[Bomb#20]

Bomb#20 is kinda rude.

... says the guy who wrote "I'm glad you're ashamed enough about this behavior to lie about it, though.". If I'm ever rude to a polite person, somebody should definitely bring that to my attention.

Speaking as a racist, misogynistic, Trump supporting, troll...

I'm not seeing "kinda rude" as a big deal on IIDB. It's the norm.
Tom

True that. In any event, I'm not clear on why not inviting him, in the course of my not saying anything to him at all, is supposed to have been rude. I can see how a vampire might feel people are rude for not inviting him in, but it's not as though Politesse needed an invitation in order to put in his two cents' worth.

 

[Bomb#20]

Metaphor also said this:

I have no idea what it means to be "respected as the gender my brain tells me".

This is the obvious bull... that Metaphor tries to pass off.

I suspect that was Metaphor's metaphorical way to express his often-posted opinion that the gender ideology currently prevailing among progressives and so-called trans-allies is logically incoherent. The folks who say stuff like "transwomen are women" are systematically unable to explain what they mean by the word "women". The entire notion of gender being determined by self-identification amounts to defining "woman" as "person who regards ta's self as a woman". Note the presence of the word "woman" in the definition of "woman". That's a circular definition. Circular definitions utterly fail to explain what words mean. When "woman" is defined incoherently, that same incoherence rubs off on every other expression that explicitly or implicitly relies on the meaning of "woman", as "gender" does in English.

First, nobody can demand my 'respect'.

Society demands respect in all kinds of situations. They demand you not cut in line in the supermarket checkout. They demand you drive on the proper side of the road. They demand you apologise if you accidentally bump into someone as you pass. Metaphor's stance is not noble. It's classic being a dick.

Your opinion that Metaphor is a dick has zero bearing on the issue at hand, which is his alleged hypocrisy. It's perfectly possible for someone to be an internally consistent dick.

That said, the circumstance that society demands some people respect some other people provides no justification at all for such demands, any more than the circumstance that society demands that humans die of natural causes so painful we wouldn't dream of letting a dog die of them is any kind of justification for forbidding physician-assisted suicide. Societies make a lot of unreasonable demands. When I was a kid, society demanded that atheists respect Christians by pretending to agree with their fiction that God was real and their fiction that the Christian way to behave was the right way to behave. Somehow nobody ever demanded that Christians respect atheists. Somehow I don't believe you think it was dickish for atheists to fail to knuckle under to that convention.

So if you feel it's reasonable for society to demand that Metaphor respect trans people by pretending to agree with their scientifically unsupported opinions that they are women or men or something else as the case may be, is that because (a) society also demands that trans people likewise respect Metaphor by pretending to agree with some opinion Metaphor has that is likewise scientifically unsupported? Or is it because (b) you think it's reasonable for society to rank people socially and impose asymmetrical obligations of respect on them, and that people who fail to respect their societally-defined betters are being dicks?

Second, if the demand for "respect" is "pretend (under the force of social censure and the force of the State) I am the sex I would have preferred to be... then hard no.

Metaphor claims he makes no demands but I am quite sure if he was walking down the street and a group of hooligans started calling him insulting names names in reference to his gayness he would be more than a little upset.

Poor analogy. Metaphor is not a group of hooligans, sexed terms are not pejoratives like "poofta", and an internet debating forum that specializes in bringing together believers and unbelievers in socially prevalent ideologies to discuss those ideologies' merits is not a street. And while it's regrettable that English evolved in a way that makes it awkward to fail to mention someone's sex, that it did so is not the fault of anyone living. Metaphor using a sexed term because that's how English works is not at all analogous to a hooligan bringing up Metaphor's homosexuality even though sexual orientation plays no role in English grammar.

Being purposely called a name that doesn't reflect the gender your brain tells you you are is insulting to virtually everyone.

I don't doubt that being called Mr. Windsor instead of the "Your Majesty" that Charles Windsor's brain tells him he is would be insulting to him, but that doesn't justify using the force of the State to compel people to pretend that Mr. Windsor has an iota more right to have his brain be agreed with by other brains than any random citizen has. I don't doubt that plenty of people in those Islamic countries that practice the Dhimmi custom feel insulted when a Christian fails to make the conventional acknowledgements of their superiority that their brains tell them they have, but that doesn't justify using the force of the State to compel people to pretend that Muslims are their betters. When one person gets to say what he thinks while a different person is required to say what other people think, social equality is out of the question. So if you feel that avoiding insult is more important than social equality, why should those lower in the social hierarchy share your opinion?

And before you bring up genitals, genitals do not think.

Why on earth would I bring up genitals? What the heck have genitals got to do with whether Metaphor is hypocritical?

 

[Jarhyn]

The folks who say stuff like "transwomen are women" are systematically unable to explain what they mean by the word "women".

No, we simply understand that some concepts, like "woman" and "furry" are fundamentally arbitrary, and that even while some people have tendencies that naturally lead them to adoption of such cultural systems, it is incorrect to gate participation on comorbidities to those who have such tendencies.

As we have discussed widely, you are also systematically unable to define "woman".

There are differences between people which exist naturally, surely, but none of these are exacly "woman". There is the ability to become pregnant, the ability to make someone else pregnant, there is the hormone Testosterone, also Estrogen, also Progesterone, and there are several brain structures which form for various reasons and which are extremely hard to identify.

As has been discussed, none of these are exactly "woman" because "woman" is more a holistic culture built around rather than  of the actual tendency towards differences between people.

We absolutely understand this, or at least some of us do.

The difference is, we have the bravery to admit and understand it, whereas some folks fail to understand the difference between biology and culture.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Metaphor also said this:

I have no idea what it means to be "respected as the gender my brain tells me".

This is the obvious bull... that Metaphor tries to pass off.

I suspect that was Metaphor's metaphorical way to express his often-posted opinion that the gender ideology currently prevailing among progressives and so-called trans-allies is logically incoherent. The folks who say stuff like "transwomen are women" are systematically unable to explain what they mean by the word "women". The entire notion of gender being determined by self-identification amounts to defining "woman" as "person who regards ta's self as a woman". Note the presence of the word "woman" in the definition of "woman". That's a circular definition. Circular definitions utterly fail to explain what words mean. When "woman" is defined incoherently, that same incoherence rubs off on every other expression that explicitly or implicitly relies on the meaning of "woman", as "gender" does in English.

If I ask you to describe the colors red and blue to a blind person, and you are unable to systematically explain those colors to a blind person, does this mean anything? Does this make the colors red and blue non-existent? Does it mean you are a failure at explaining things?

What we have are a very small portion of the population that say they feel as if they are the opposite gender. That their identity is that of the opposite gender. It isn't a phase. It isn't a wish. It is engrained in their psyche. So instead of asking folks to explain what they mean when they say a "transwoman is a woman", perhaps you need to step back and ask yourself, what is within the entirety of a gender? How much is our gender is the chromosomes and how much in the DNA and how much in the neurology? And which part of that matters the most in our personal identity?

 

[Oleg]

As has been discussed, none of these are exactly "woman" because "woman" is more a holistic culture built around rather than  of the actual tendency towards differences between people.

Is this true for all other female primates and mammals? If not, why not?

 

[Oleg]

What we have are a very small portion of the population that say they feel as if they are the opposite gender. That their identity is that of the opposite gender. It isn't a phase. It isn't a wish. It is engrained in their psyche. So instead of asking folks to explain what they mean when they say a "transwoman is a woman", perhaps you need to step back and ask yourself, what is within the entirety of a gender? How much is our gender is the chromosomes and how much in the DNA and how much in the neurology? And which part of that matters the most in our personal identity?

Is anyone really doubting that these trans identified people have something going on in their heads? When a married man with children one day announces he’d rather be seen as a woman, will take female hormones, and might even remove his penis, that’s probably built into his brain wiring. Because that’s just inconceivable to nearly all other men. But that doesn’t make him a woman. It makes him a trans identified man. Which is likely just the contemporary iteration of cross dressers. They get sexual arousal imagining themselves as women. (Real women don’t.)

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What we have are a very small portion of the population that say they feel as if they are the opposite gender. That their identity is that of the opposite gender. It isn't a phase. It isn't a wish. It is engrained in their psyche. So instead of asking folks to explain what they mean when they say a "transwoman is a woman", perhaps you need to step back and ask yourself, what is within the entirety of a gender? How much is our gender is the chromosomes and how much in the DNA and how much in the neurology? And which part of that matters the most in our personal identity?

Is anyone really doubting that these trans identified people have something going on in their heads?

That statement is so vague to be rendered meaningless. We all have things "going on" in our heads. The question is how much of it is pre-coded.

When a married man with children one day announces he’d rather be seen as a woman, will take female hormones, and might even remove his penis, that’s probably built into his brain wiring. Because that’s just inconceivable to nearly all other men. But that doesn’t make him a woman.

You mean, it doesn't mean he wasn't born with female genitals. Unfortunately, my post went into greater detail regarding what it means to be a woman, physically, ie chromosomes, DNA, neurology. You are still stuck with the chromosome side of things. You seem unwilling to accept any other physical aspect to gender.

It makes him a trans identified man. Which is likely just the contemporary iteration of cross dressers. They get sexual arousal imagining themselves as women. (Real women don’t.)

It is great you continue to speak for the transgender community and tell them what they think. But maybe you should listen to what they are saying instead of just telling them how they feel? Just a suggestion.

 

[TomC]

As has been discussed, none of these are exactly "woman" because "woman" is more a holistic culture built around rather than  of the actual tendency towards differences between people.

Is this true for all other female primates and mammals? If not, why not?

Because they don't have cultural gender norms.
Tom

 

[TomC]

Because that’s just inconceivable to nearly all other men.

I, too, find it impossible to understand. I kinda get FtM, obviously being a dude is better. But I don't have to understand it in order to grasp that other people can do whatever they want, if it doesn't involve me. I don't understand why guys get so excited about hunting or football either.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I, too, find it impossible to understand. I kinda get FtM, obviously being a dude is better. But I don't have to understand it in order to grasp that other people can do whatever they want, if it doesn't involve me.

This isn't about people being free to do what they choose... as this is so much more fundamental. It is about accepting who they are. Accepting that our understanding on gender isn't nearly as simple as we have let on for millennia.

 

[Oleg]

You seem unwilling to accept any other physical aspect to gender.

Gender is subjective and kinda meaningless.