Sweden, Finland, and Ukraine joining NATO?

[bilby]

Clearly not one word said by either side since it was known that an airliner had been shot down can be trusted.

Discard all of that.

The forensic evidence is consistent with the statements made by the Russian backed rebels, who claimed to have BUK launchers days before MH017 was shot down, and who claimed to have shot down an aircraft in the same region on the day MH017 was shot down - a claim that was rapidly retracted after it became known that a passenger jet was involved. No other aircraft were lost in that area at that time. It's a no-brainer, as long as you don't pay any credence to the lying liars on all sides who have done nothing but sow confusion ever since. It is impossible to sort the truth from the lies, so it is best to just ignore it all.

Immediately after the crash, a post appeared on the VKontakte social media website attributed to Igor Girkin, leader of the Donbass separatists, claiming responsibility for shooting down an AN-26, but after it became clear that a civilian aircraft had been shot down, the separatists denied any involvement, and the post was taken down. This was the last believable statement made by anyone; and doubtless Girkin and his men genuinely believed that they had shot down a Ukrainian military aircraft, until their horrifying error became apparent from examination of the wreckage.

I certainly believe their claim that they shot down a plane. I do not believe anything either side has said since, and no amount of talk by anyone changes the facts.

 

[angelo]

Whoever is to blame is not about to admit it. There's strong evidence Ukrainians shot it down with a Russian made missiles. Which side is responsible? That remains the unanswered question.

Excuse me, but is anyone else seeing the cognitive dissonance here?


I mean, you're claiming that the responsibility for the shoot-down is an "unanswered question" while at the same time placing the blame on the Ukrainians.

The missile was fired within the Ukrainian borders, not from Russian territory, correct?

 

[barbos]

bilby, there was only preliminary report and it says nothing about what kind of weapon was used.
As for rebels, no, you should not trust them. You should not trust them even when they say they shot it down in the first place. They were shooting planes and it was assumed (by rebels themselves) that they were responsible for every plane falling down.

Most likely rebels shot it down, but in unlikely event ukrainian forces are responsible I have my doubts that Netherlands would not try to cover it (under US pressure). But this is very unlikely that there will be any forensic evidence to blame Ukraine.

 

[tupac chopra]

I see Bilby has backed away from his original claim which was this.

The forensic evidence from the damage to the airliner indicates that MH017 was downed by a surface launched missile.

He produced no evidence. Did he change his mind once he realised he had no evidence of that?

 

[arkirk]

That's pretty ironic considering number of threads about misdeeds of actual US police on this board.
And in general, public here is very critical of US government when it comes to internal affairs and generally think that government is just of bunch of incompetent and corrupt assholes. But when it comes to foreign policy then the same people become geniuses somehow. Unless of course it involves sending troops into Iraq and Afganistan.

Without America we would be typing in either Japanese or German, or perhaps even Russian. Sure they have made mistakes, invading Iraq is to me the obvious blunder of the century, but for every mistake there's an opposing good they've done. The biggest blunder now seems to be the Obama administrations flirting and appeasement with islam which has the potential of crippling the Western culture and way of life.

So you are thankful for America are you? You indicated earlier in this thread that it is okay to lie if it is in the national interest. Perhaps you are unaware of the liabilities lying brings to the table in international affairs. Lying U.S. leaders have destroyed numerous communities throughout the world in what could only be considered resource and strategic military action, not to mention covert cloak and dagger operations. Putin thinks like you do obviously...except he has a slightly different set of lies. The problem is that when everybody lies, NOBODY CAN MAKE A SOUND DECISION. Lacking any way to determine the right course of action, it is wise to remove from these lying leaders as much ability to commit violence as possible. I daresay Obama and the U.S. State Department is as dishonest as Putin is...especially when it resupplies a nation like Israel after it rips Gaza to shreds.

It started with a Ukranian government dealing with Putin for natural gas and increased trade. This led to a joint U.S. and British sponsored coups to install a west leaning government in Ukraine. The U.S. has easily as dirty a hand in Ukraine as Russia, but somehow we forget the duly elected leadership in Ukraine was thrown out by pro U.S. forces. Putin didn't help the situation by annexing Crimea. In doing so, he did not help the democratic balance in Ukraine. This left the Russian speaking people in Eastern Ukraine stranded in a country whose leaders were sold out to the West.

What must be borne in mind here is that NO LEADER IS NOT LYING. The coups in Ukraine is obviously the source of Putin's fears and is definitely behind Russian overflights and spying and sponsoring of Eastern Ukraine rebels. All of that is going on too...along with the coups government of Ukraine seeking to become part of still another military alliance...NATO. That is probably what the coups was really about...(the truth is so buried in lies we may never know). NATO is just another form of military industrial complex that feeds on wars. It's leadership simply parrots the lies of its many and several parasitic factions. Finnish and Swedish leaders know this is all happening close to them and are seeing Russian military operations in their area, so they are running for cover behind the false cloak of NATO. Both Putin's military and NATO are actually just parasites on their people...but then, so is the U.S. military.

The U.S. government keeps pushing the military technology envelope, creating ever more horrible weapons and crews to man them, all the while sinking in our duties to educate, feed, house, and keep our people healthy. All parties need to pull their horns back in...stop lying to one another and quit this jingoistic and narcissistic never ending war we are making on each other. I disagree with Angelo. The U.S. is perhaps the worst offender, yet it has the greatest capacity to change the character of our international relations. We remain remiss in our duties to our own people and those of the world at large. We need to put down our hammer and start working with the triangle and compass.

 

[Ford]

Excuse me, but is anyone else seeing the cognitive dissonance here?


I mean, you're claiming that the responsibility for the shoot-down is an "unanswered question" while at the same time placing the blame on the Ukrainians.

The missile was fired within the Ukrainian borders, not from Russian territory, correct?

That's right. I keep forgetting there are people who still believe Russia has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with what is happening in Ukraine. No Russian soldiers, no Russian equipment, no Russian support for rebels. Nope. Nothing to see here...move along!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Excuse me, but is anyone else seeing the cognitive dissonance here?


I mean, you're claiming that the responsibility for the shoot-down is an "unanswered question" while at the same time placing the blame on the Ukrainians.

The missile was fired within the Ukrainian borders, not from Russian territory, correct?

The launch flare was seen at a location in the Russian-controlled part of Ukraine.

- - - Updated - - -

I see Bilby has backed away from his original claim which was this.

The forensic evidence from the damage to the airliner indicates that MH017 was downed by a surface launched missile.

He produced no evidence. Did he change his mind once he realised he had no evidence of that?

The damage to the plane is consistent with a radar-guided missile. It is not consistent with a heat seeker or a gun.

We have a launch flare at the right time to have destroyed the plane.

Now, it's possible an aircraft destroyed the plane while the rebels fired at something else and missed...

 

[Davka]

I was listening to the radio soon after this incident occurred, and the BBC had a reporter on the ground (probably an independent stringer) who was talking to the locals about what they saw. According to this reporter, all the locals said they saw a Ukrainian fighter jet flying overhead, then a rocket trail from the ground, followed by the crash of the airliner. The implication was pretty clear: rebels/russians fired a heat-seeking missile at the fighter jet and missed, instead taking down the much higher commercial jet.

Oddly, I have heard no follow-up on this report since that initial interview.

 

[tupac chopra]

I was listening to the radio soon after this incident occurred, and the BBC had a reporter on the ground (probably an independent stringer) who was talking to the locals about what they saw. According to this reporter, all the locals said they saw a Ukrainian fighter jet flying overhead, then a rocket trail from the ground, followed by the crash of the airliner. The implication was pretty clear: rebels/russians fired a heat-seeking missile at the fighter jet and missed, instead taking down the much higher commercial jet.

Oddly, I have heard no follow-up on this report since that initial interview.

Probably because the BBC removed the video. Probably because the Ukrainians have said all along that they had not military jets in the air that day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa_R2NA1txc


Obviously they are lying because one of their jets shot the plane down.

Here is what would be obviously clearly the most damning evidence (except it's a fake)
Ukrainian security released this cobbled together video conveniently capturing the rebels admitting to shooting down the plane. Why anyone would need to appeal to anything else to prove the rebels shot the plane down is illuminating.

People who want to say the rebels did it should be pointing to this video.....but they don't.
The question is why would Ukrainian security release a fake youtube clip where the rebels confess?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKNx0-6bUbI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuV0flnO8BY

Because a Ukrainian jet shot the plane down

 

[Ford]

Obviously they are lying because one of their jets shot the plane down.

So you've got proof of this claim and will be posting it shortly?

 

[tupac chopra]

If the rebels did it there would be no reason for all the secrecy in the phoney investigation.
Why the Secrecy on the Mh17 Investigation

Under IATA Rules, the parties responsible for the investigation would be the Malaysians, as owners of the plane and home country of the airline, and the Ukrainians over whose territory the atrocity occurred. It was the Dutch however, who took the lead role, citing two facts: the plane had departed from Amsterdam; and they had suffered the largest number of their nationals as victims. The Malaysians were initially excluded from the inquiry for reasons that have never been satisfactorily explained. They were finally invited to join the Joint Inquiry on 2 December 2014.

Instead, the initial inquiry group consisted of Ukraine, the Netherlands, Australia and Belgium. The Australians suffered the third largest loss of life but had no standing to be one of the investigatory nations, and certainly less of a claim than the Malaysians. The Australian Prime Minister and some other politicians had been at the forefront of making extreme allegations against Russia and President Putin. Why Belgium was included remains a mystery.

On 8 August 2014 these four investigating nations signed an agreement that the results of the investigation would not be published unless all four countries agreed. This gave one of the prime suspects in the atrocity, Ukraine, an effective veto over any investigations result that attributed blame to them. This is an astonishing situation and probably without precedent in modern air crash investigations.

 

[Harry Bosch]

So you've got proof of this claim and will be posting it shortly?

I'm sure it's coming!!!

 

[Ford]

If the rebels did it there would be no reason for all the secrecy in the phoney investigation.

That's not the question. You said...and I quote:

one of their jets shot the plane down.

Which one of their jets?

 

[Jayjay]

Assad was responsible.

Just out of curiosity why do you think so?

Rebels did not have means to manufacture Sarin gas in the quantities used, and the missiles used were the same type used by Syrian military. The debris is consistent with the weapons being launched from Syrian military positions. US claims it has intercepted commmunications of Syrians military discussing the strike. And most importantly, we know that since the Russian-mediated proposal to have Syria dispose of its chemical weapons stockpile, there have been no additional attacks. If ISIS or Al-Nusra or whoever had access to chemical weapons in a way that they could have staged the attacks, why wouldn't they have used those weapons again and again? They've certainly committed much worse acts of terror in Syria and Iraq, and are already in open war with pretty much everyone so it's not like they have a reputation to worry about.

All this points pretty solidly to Syria being the culprit, rather than the rebels.

What the heck are you talking about? USA is calle to account all the time, but when is Russia going to come clean about shooting down the Malaysian airlines plane for example?

A Ukrainian airforce person has already identified to Ukrainian pilot who shot down MH17. Did you know?
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/1...s-kiev-plane-shot-down-mh-17-full-transcript/

You're fucking kidding, right? An anonymous witness, talking to Russian newspaper with "Pravda" on its name is hardly evidence. And as for identifying the pilot, he just happens to be on that was awarded a medal by Poroshenko and has public websites and active social media presence. Furthermore, it's comical that in the interview, the interviewee seems to have trouble remembering his name... really? You are a person who's been conflicted about having witnessed a huge crime, decide to go to the newspapers, and you don't bother to memorize the shooter's name in advance of the interview? And at the end of the itnerview he spirals into accusations about Ukraine using cluster bombs and other banned weapons, all equally unsubstantiated.

The article is bullshit, lapped up by conspiracy theorists such as yourself without any criticism whatsoever.

One anonymous witnesses spinning a yarn does not negate the facts that SU-25 would have been incapable of shooting down the plane due to range and type of weaponry, that Russia has not released any radar information to the Dutch investigation that would show SU-25 anywhere near MH17, that there was a BUK sighted in the area with one missile gone, that people actually saw the smoke trail from the missile, and we have intercepted calls, social media posts and multitude of other evidence of rebels celebrating the hit until they realized that it was a civilian plane.

 

[tupac chopra]

Just out of curiosity why do you think so?

Rebels did not have means to manufacture Sarin gas in the quantities used, and the missiles used were the same type used by Syrian military. The debris is consistent with the weapons being launched from Syrian military positions.

No that's wrong. The Americans lied and you swallowed it.
Possible Implications of Faulty US Technical Intelligence in the Damascus Nerve Agent Attack

The Mistaken Guns of Last August

Secretary of State John Kerry misled the American people last summer when he assured them that the U.S. government knew for a fact that the Syrian government was responsible for the Aug. 21 Sarin gas attack outside Damascus, an incident that killed several hundred people and nearly prompted a U.S. military assault.

A new report by two American weapons specialists, entitled “Possible Implications of Faulty US Technical Intelligence in the Damascus Nerve Agent Attack,” makes clear that the case presented by Kerry and the Obama administration was scientifically impossible because the range of the key rocket carrying Sarin was less than a third of what the U.S. government was claiming.

The controversial map developed by Human Rights Watch and embraced by the New York Times, supposedly showing the flight paths of two missiles from the Aug. 21 Sarin attack intersecting at a Syrian military base.
The controversial map developed by Human Rights Watch and embraced by the New York Times, supposedly showing the flight paths of two missiles from the Aug. 21 Sarin attack intersecting at a Syrian military base.
The two rocket specialists – Richard Lloyd, a former United Nations weapons inspector who is now associated with Tesla Laboratories, and Theodore A. Postol, professor of science, technology and national security policy at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology – concluded that the rocket’s limited range meant that it couldn’t have come from Syrian government-controlled areas as delineated by a map released by the Obama administration last August.

Yet, in a State Department speech on Aug. 30, Kerry declared — with what can now be called false confidence — that the U.S. government knew that the attack was launched by the Syrian government from its territory. He also implied inaccurately that the U.S. intelligence community was in accord with these claims, and he dissembled when he asserted that the Obama administration had declassified evidence to let the public make up its own mind. No such evidence was ever released.

 

[Ford]

Rebels did not have means to manufacture Sarin gas in the quantities used, and the missiles used were the same type used by Syrian military. The debris is consistent with the weapons being launched from Syrian military positions.

No that's wrong. You didn't follow this story

No, but seriously you claimed that Ukrainian jets shot down the airliner.


Let's see that evidence.

 

[Jayjay]

I was listening to the radio soon after this incident occurred, and the BBC had a reporter on the ground (probably an independent stringer) who was talking to the locals about what they saw. According to this reporter, all the locals said they saw a Ukrainian fighter jet flying overhead, then a rocket trail from the ground, followed by the crash of the airliner. The implication was pretty clear: rebels/russians fired a heat-seeking missile at the fighter jet and missed, instead taking down the much higher commercial jet.

Oddly, I have heard no follow-up on this report since that initial interview.

That sounds like a feasible scenario. Ukraine might not be entirely blameless, it's possible that they were deliberately flying military planes near civilian aircraft. But thre is little doubt that it was the rebels or Russians who actually took the shot.

 

[barbos]

Jayjay, yes, I have to agree with tupac chopra, you did not follow that story.

 

[Jayjay]

If the rebels did it there would be no reason for all the secrecy in the phoney investigation.
Why the Secrecy on the Mh17 Investigation

Under IATA Rules, the parties responsible for the investigation would be the Malaysians, as owners of the plane and home country of the airline, and the Ukrainians over whose territory the atrocity occurred. It was the Dutch however, who took the lead role, citing two facts: the plane had departed from Amsterdam; and they had suffered the largest number of their nationals as victims. The Malaysians were initially excluded from the inquiry for reasons that have never been satisfactorily explained. They were finally invited to join the Joint Inquiry on 2 December 2014.

Instead, the initial inquiry group consisted of Ukraine, the Netherlands, Australia and Belgium. The Australians suffered the third largest loss of life but had no standing to be one of the investigatory nations, and certainly less of a claim than the Malaysians. The Australian Prime Minister and some other politicians had been at the forefront of making extreme allegations against Russia and President Putin. Why Belgium was included remains a mystery.

On 8 August 2014 these four investigating nations signed an agreement that the results of the investigation would not be published unless all four countries agreed. This gave one of the prime suspects in the atrocity, Ukraine, an effective veto over any investigations result that attributed blame to them. This is an astonishing situation and probably without precedent in modern air crash investigations.

And the next paragraph:

More significantly however, is that the existence of this secret agreement was not announced by the Australian government, nor to the best of my knowledge has any report about the existence of the agreement or its extraordinary terms, been published in any mainstream publication.

I call bullshit. If the agreement is secret and not published anywhere, how does this guy know what the agreement says?

 

[barbos]

I was listening to the radio soon after this incident occurred, and the BBC had a reporter on the ground (probably an independent stringer) who was talking to the locals about what they saw. According to this reporter, all the locals said they saw a Ukrainian fighter jet flying overhead, then a rocket trail from the ground, followed by the crash of the airliner. The implication was pretty clear: rebels/russians fired a heat-seeking missile at the fighter jet and missed, instead taking down the much higher commercial jet.

Oddly, I have heard no follow-up on this report since that initial interview.

That sounds like a feasible scenario. Ukraine might not be entirely blameless, it's possible that they were deliberately flying military planes near civilian aircraft. But thre is little doubt that it was the rebels or Russians who actually took the shot.

And who is more to blame here?
a) Rebels who were genuinely surprised that civilians passenger airplanes were flying over them
b) Ukrainian millitary who deliberately tried to make rebels to shot passenger airplane with a lot of innocent people

And I am not saying this is what happened, but the latest noise coming from an alleged witness at ukrainian airbase is consistent with this theory. And the theory itself appeared shortly after the incident when it was reported Su-25 was there.

Same with for chemical weapons attack in Syria, you need to look deeper than simple "rebels did not have chemical weapons"