Split Gendered spaces, split from Drag Shows

[Emily Lake]

Bad Faith will have a very hard time stepping past that boundary, whereas good faith will generally see no trouble yeeting the sperm factory.
...
The readiness of most trans women I have met to get their testicles off is surprising.

You're running in a very unusual crowd of trans then. About 80% of transgender identifying males do NOT have orchiectomies, nor any sort of surgical intervention... and they have no intention of ever doing so.

Are you actually interacting with transgender people, or are you interacting with people who identify as eunichs? Or have you managed to find a pocket of old-school transsexuals who also believe that diagnosed dysphoria is a prerequisite for being trans in the first place?

 

[Emily Lake]

And rather than making declarations about what is or is not legally a "woman" it abstains entirely by not naming things in either side of the barrier in terms of "male" or "female", "man" or "woman". It just says "on one side of this barrier are people that can make someone capable of it pregnant and those who take a performance enhancing steroid by some mechanism, and on the other side are those who do neither of those things." It is real, scientific, and clear, sterile and immune to mere declarations or the ACLU saying "you can't call people that".

It's also unnecessarily complicated and fairly science denialist. The reality is that 99.999999% of the time, that breaks down to "male" or "female". And for someone who actually falls into that 0.000001%, I hereby give them the special privilege of picking for themselves.

 

[Emily Lake]

In any case, in a locker room situation, the average woman or perhaps nearly any person would have a difficult--impossible! time ascertaining whether or not the individual they saw who had the physical appearance of a man was really trans and no threat. In fact, the appearance of an apparent male person in the women's locker room would be evidence that they did intend harm, in the minds of most women.

Let alone the time to do a test to determine whether that male-bodied, be-testicled person happens to be one of the sterile ones that doesn't produce sperm but is fully capable of an erection and all other sexual function... but who Jarhyn, in his infinite wisdom about what women ought not be allowed, has decided are allowed in the women's locker room if they want to be there.

 

[TomC]

Yeah, I'm about to be unpopular. That's okay.

"About to be unpopular."?

Honey, you're less popular than I am. That's going a piece.

You have the advantage of being of the politically correct sex. I don't even have that.

I'm gay. Definitely an advantage over @Derec or @TSwizzle or other straight guys. But being female definitely puts you closer to the top of the stack than me or them.

Ya gotta work it.
Tom

 

[Emily Lake]

That's what this is about. People want to protect folks from people who have physical advantages in settings with high populations of violent people, and to protect them from being forcibly impregnated.

How about RAPED, Jarhyn? Most RAPE doesn't result in pregnancy, but it's still RAPE. FFS, you seem to be clinging to an artificial construct just so that males can get into places where females do not want them to be.

Why? Is this personal? Is this because you, personally, really really really want to be in the naked-women-spaces, but you are trying to convince everyone that you're safe and nobody should worry? Is that what this is about? You getting the privilege of seeing all the titties you want, because you're willing to cut off your balls to get it?

 

[Emily Lake]

Yeah, I'm about to be unpopular. That's okay.

"About to be unpopular."?

Honey, you're less popular than I am. That's going a piece.

You have the advantage of being of the politically correct sex. I don't even have that.

I'm gay. Definitely an advantage over @Derec or @TSwizzle or other straight guys. But being female definitely puts you closer to the top of the stack than me or them.

Ya gotta work it.
Tom

You'd think so... but no. This is not exactly the first thread where we've seen a concerted willingness of men to ignore and dismiss the views of women. So even if by some strange metric you think being female puts me higher up in some "victim hierarchy", that's not a lot of help when a whole lot of people seem to hold the view that women somehow DESERVE to be victims.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Secondly... the "lots of people" who come out as trans in their middle years are almost exclusively autogynephiles. It's a fairly well known escalation from cross-dressing for men who get sexual pleasure out of envisioning themselves as women. It remains a subcategory under the DSM-5 diagnosis of transvestic fetishism, and it's a sexual paraphilia.

Males who do NOT have a sexual fetish are almost entirely those who identified as the opposite sex from a very young age, almost always well before the onset of puberty.

The problem here is you are equating realizing their orientation and coming out about it. It's quite possible to come out later in life because one was afraid to do so before or because they didn't have the needed medical support.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The response has been to try to keep her out. (Note, this is in China, not the US.) And it's women giving her a hard time.

And when my MIL needed assistance from my FIL they weren't accepted in either bathroom.

You've brought your SIL up multiple times... and all those times you've been glossing over that this is in China? You didn't think that might have a bearing on her treatment? China has VERY different social norms than the US. This isn't a reasonable comparison, Loren, and you ought to have known better.

I have said it's China before, I just don't hammer the point every time. I'm simply pointing it out as what your position causes.

 

[ZiprHead]

Arkansas lawmaker, at a hearing, asks transgender woman if she has a penis

Gasps could be heard from the gallery after the Republican state senator asked a trans health care professional about her genitalia.

www.nbcnews.com

An Arkansas lawmaker shocked onlookers this week when he asked a transgender health care professional about her genitals at a hearing on a bill that would prohibit gender-affirming care for minors.

Gwendolyn Herzig, a pharmacist who is a trans woman, was testifying Monday in support of the treatment for minors during a state Senate Judiciary Committee hearing.


“You said that you’re a trans woman?” Republican state Sen. Matt McKee asked Herzig. “Do you have a penis?”

The audience erupted, with some audibly gasping and at least one person shouting, "Disgraceful."

"That's horrible," Herzig said, after taking a few moments to gather herself. "I don't know what my rights are, but that question was horribly inappropriate."

Herzig, who holds a doctorate of pharmacy, then added: "I'm a health care professional, a doctor. Please treat me as such. Next question, please."

Video in the link.

 

[Oleg]

Whistleblower report on St. Louis transgender clinic triggers calls for federal, state probes

Whistleblower Jamie Reed, who worked at the transgender center between 2018 and 2022, said staff too freely prescribed medications and did not properly explain the side effects. “I was struck

www.stltoday.com

To begin transition, Reed wrote, all children needed a letter of support from a therapist, who was often one recommended by the center.
Reed said her encounters with patients left her feeling like they did not know about the side effects of hormone therapy. For example, transgender males taking testosterone, which thins vaginal tissues, suffered vaginal lacerations during sex; and a transgender female taking bicalumatide experienced liver toxicity.

Reed began seeing many kids with diagnoses such as schizophrenia, PTSD and bipolar disorder referred to the center from St. Louis Children’s Hospital.

“Yet no matter how much suffering or pain a child had endured, or how little treatment and love they had received, our doctors viewed gender transition — even with all the expense and hardship it entailed — as the solution,” she wrote.


She was also disturbed by cases where parents did not agree on their child’s need for gender-affirming care. “It seemed the center always took the side of the affirming parent,” she wrote. In Missouri, only one parent’s consent is needed for treatment.
Reed said she advocated for tracking desistance and detransition among patients, but the idea was turned down. “Desisters” end up choosing not to go through with transition, and “detransitioners” decide to return to their birth gender after transitioning.

 

[Oleg]

Time to Think by Hannah Barnes review – what went wrong at Gids?

The BBC Newsnight reporter’s investigation into the Tavistock’s gender identity clinic for children makes disturbing reading

www.theguardian.com

Clinicians at Gids insisted the effects of these drugs were reversible; that taking them would reduce the distress experienced by gender dysphoric children; and that there was no causality between starting hormone blockers and going on to take cross-sex hormones (the latter are taken by adults who want fully to transition). Unfortunately, none of these things were true. Such drugs do have severe side effects, and while the causality between blockers and cross-sex hormones cannot be proven – all the studies into them have been designed without a control group – 98% of children who take the first go on to take the latter. Most seriously of all, as Gids’ own research suggested, they do not appear to lead to any improvement in children’s psychological wellbeing.

 

[Bomb#20]

"About to be unpopular."?

Honey, you're less popular than I am. That's going a piece.

You have the advantage of being of the politically correct sex. I don't even have that.

I'm gay. Definitely an advantage over @Derec or @TSwizzle or other straight guys. But being female definitely puts you closer to the top of the stack than me or them.

Ya gotta work it.
Tom

Keep in mind you don't get credit for any of your oppression categories if you dispute the party line. The very lowest of the low on the stack are always the heretics.

 

[Politesse]

"About to be unpopular."?

Honey, you're less popular than I am. That's going a piece.

You have the advantage of being of the politically correct sex. I don't even have that.

I'm gay. Definitely an advantage over @Derec or @TSwizzle or other straight guys. But being female definitely puts you closer to the top of the stack than me or them.

Ya gotta work it.
Tom

Keep in mind you don't get credit for any of your oppression categories if you dispute the party line. The very lowest of the low on the stack are always the heretics.

Yeah, people always talk about the great heroes who "champion civil rights", but no one ever acknowledges the great and noble social leaders who oppose them, and wish to restrict and oppress the population. Shouldn't they get some credit for happening to share a gender expression with many of their victims?

 

[TomC]

wish to restrict and oppress the population.

By "restrict and oppress" you're talking about a broad insistence that people use the facilities in the next room? The ones intended for them, that they're entitled to use?

If you mean something else, you'll need to be more clear. If you're insinuating that anyone here supports discrimination in housing or employment or something, you're wrong.
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

wish to restrict and oppress the population.

By "restrict and oppress" you're talking about a broad insistence that people use the facilities in the next room? The ones intended for them, that they're entitled to use?

If you mean something else, you'll need to be more clear. If you're insinuating that anyone here supports discrimination in housing or employment or something, you're wrong.
Tom

You could take your post, drop it right into a thread arguing for Jim Crow, and I wouldn't be able to tell the difference without specifically contextualizing it to gender as the thread here does.

 

[Oleg]

wish to restrict and oppress the population.

By "restrict and oppress" you're talking about a broad insistence that people use the facilities in the next room? The ones intended for them, that they're entitled to use?

If you mean something else, you'll need to be more clear. If you're insinuating that anyone here supports discrimination in housing or employment or something, you're wrong.
Tom

You’re a Nazi if you’d deny men the pleasure of euphoria boners in women’s spaces.

 

[Oleg]

 

[Oleg]

Why detransitioners are crucial to the science of gender care

Understanding why people quit treatment is key to improving it, especially for minors seeking to transition, experts say. Researchers rarely touch the subject.

www.reuters.com

Many have said their gender identity remained fluid well after the start of treatment, and a third of them expressed regret about their decision to transition from the gender they were assigned at birth. Some said they avoided telling their doctors about detransitioning out of embarrassment or shame. Others said their doctors were ill-equipped to help them with the process. Most often, they talked about how transitioning did not address their mental health problems.

“I can’t think of any other examples where you’re not allowed to speak about your own healthcare experiences if you didn’t have a good outcome,” MacKinnon told Reuters.

 

[Toni]

wish to restrict and oppress the population.

By "restrict and oppress" you're talking about a broad insistence that people use the facilities in the next room? The ones intended for them, that they're entitled to use?

If you mean something else, you'll need to be more clear. If you're insinuating that anyone here supports discrimination in housing or employment or something, you're wrong.
Tom

You could take your post, drop it right into a thread arguing for Jim Crow, and I wouldn't be able to tell the difference without specifically contextualizing it to gender as the thread here does.

I see at least two significant differences: there is no history of black people attacking white people as there is a history of make people attacking female people. I truly believe that transwomen ARE women. I also know that it would be impossible for almost all women and girls to see an individual with a penis and not assume that person is male and quite possibly has an intention to do them harm.

The other is that, unlike white people, women have been marginalized throughout history, they have been treated as property, as children, unable to hold property or make financial decisions for themselves. They have been denied the vote and are still underrepresented in positions of power.

The argument that cis women are being bigots or unreasonable with their concerns would come across much differently if there were discussions about how welcoming cis men are towards trans men.

The arguments that cis women should have zero concerns about their need for safety or privacy comes across very much like being told not to worry our pretty little heads about that—just let the XY’s figure it all out. They’ll tell XX how it’s going to be.

 

[TomC]

wish to restrict and oppress the population.

By "restrict and oppress" you're talking about a broad insistence that people use the facilities in the next room? The ones intended for them, that they're entitled to use?

If you mean something else, you'll need to be more clear. If you're insinuating that anyone here supports discrimination in housing or employment or something, you're wrong.
Tom

You could take your post, drop it right into a thread arguing for Jim Crow, and I wouldn't be able to tell the difference without specifically contextualizing it to gender as the thread here does.

Key phrase in your post
"I wouldn't be able to tell the difference"

Try going outside your ideological bubble and talking to the large majority of people. Those of us who can tell the difference.

Here's a thought.
Instead of dismissing her try listening.

The arguments that cis women should have zero concerns about their need for safety or privacy comes across very much like being told not to worry our pretty little heads about that—just let the XY’s figure it all out. They’ll tell XX how it’s going to be.

Tom