Why do the Afghani's like the Taliban so much?

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Why are the Pashtun sympathetic towards the Taliban?

This is me, just opining and I could be wrong:

My recollection is that the Taliban started out as a religious/political movement out of the Pashtun ethnic tribe. They probably "empower" fellow Pashtun males by providing opportunity for leadership over others. It's a system of ethnic tribalism, religion, and patriarchy.

What does an Afghan need? You would think economic opportunity, but I imagine (could be wrong) that Afghanistan is very lacking in infrastructure. The world could spend a few decades on setting up economic, structural, and scientific infrastructure in Afghanistan with the goal of helping Afghanistan to be self-sufficient in the hi-tech global economy, but I don't think they are anywhere near that. So, instead, they are educated in copies from an old book, seek stable relative power over others, fear for their lives if upsetting the local powers that be, and do what they can to survive.

The point I am stressing is seeking "stable, relative power over others" because there is a lack of opportunity for growth in the direction of a free, advanced society. My thought is that conservative systems that include patriarchy are often generally harmful to most male members in the sense that if the whole of society flipped a switch simultaneously and practiced more equality, the majority of males would suddenly be better off. But with little other opportunities provided by infrastructure and strong institutions where opposition is also tribally based, there is some stability and relative power over others (women) and non-Pashtuns. So, there is a high risk of losing opportunity (and life) for any individual Pashtun male to try to change. Thus, they are "stuck."

Here is an interesting paper on the subject which at least seems superficially different than my opining:

The Paradox of the Heavy-handed Insurgent: Public Support for the Taliban Among Afghan Pashtuns. | START.umd.edu

Afghanistan is a profoundly insecure country, with a very high rate of insurgent violence, affecting large swathes of the population. Despite contributing to physical and economic insecurity across the country, Taliban insurgents have succeeded in creating what we call the “paradox of the...

www.start.umd.edu

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I get the basics. Hamid Karzai and then Ashraf Ghani ran a shit show of a corrupt government, who only managed to stay in power becasue they were held under the arms with American money. Without the spigot of free cash, it fell apart with astonishing speed.

The Taliban couldn't possibly have seized power any faster. So clearly the Afghan people really really preferred the Taliban.

Or resistance was futile. The people with the guns seized power back, they weren't given it. We saw the people desperate to leave on the airfields.

Yes. But that's describing the symptom. Not the cause.

So blacks welcomed Jim Crow in the South and allowed Reconstrudtion to end.

What?

Sorry, you are a self-professed expert on all things America so I just figured you'd undertstand the parallel. In America, African Americans enjoyed a brief period of rise after the Civil War. They won court cases, made money, were happy. But even before Reconstruction came to an end, African Americans began to recoil a bit, weary of the changing tides. And then Reconstruction ends, and Jim Crow stats seeping in. African Americans didn't want this to happen, they didn't choose for it to happen, but they sought to hold onto what they had and make fewer waves. They could have resisted strongly, in the north and south to the systemic racism that was starting, but they didn't.

Much like the people in Afghanistan, they didn't have a choice. It was rise up and likely die or accept what was coming if they couldn't escape. Large portions of Afghanistan never quite understood the concept of Democracy to begin and others just struggled to exist, they didn't need to bother themselves with ensuring justice in their Government sphere... that never really extended to them in the first place. In the cities, people knew what was coming, knew they couldn't stop it without a lot of bloodshed. And those that couldn't escape were stuck.

The events in both cases around them were viewed to be bigger than they were, and there was no stopping it without a massive amount of suffering. Accepting what is viewed as the inevitability of tyranny is not the same as accepting tyranny.

Certainly, some support the Taliban, but your claim seems a bit hyperbolic and out of touch. But... par for the course really.

Try answering why did the Taliban have the biggest guns?

They had support from third parties.

At worst the average rural Afghan would have been agnostic on government. We saw what the mobs of people desperate to flee in the city thought of Taliban rule at the airport.

Who gave the Taliban guns? What's the geopolitics at play here?

Pakistan, Russia, Iran... where have you been?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Russia, Pakistan, Iran?? They also have guns already and could have stolen some from various occupation forces over the decades.

Ok. Did they?

Where do the Taliban get their money and weapons from?

The Taliban have built a financial empire, but it could be thinly stretched as they become the Afghan government

www.independent.co.uk

More recently:

Planes, guns, night-vision goggles: The Taliban's new U.S.-made war chest

About a month ago, Afghanistan's ministry of defense posted on social media photographs of seven brand new helicopters arriving in Kabul delivered by the United States.

www.reuters.com

 

[Elixir]

The most well-documented source of income for the Taliban is the trade of opium hashish, methamphetamines and other narcotics.

I wonder why the theft and trade in looted antiquities isn't top of that list. Could it be because the end users of opium hashish, methamphetamines and other narcotics are hapless drug addicts, while the end users of stolen antiquities are wealthy collectors, oligarchs and politicians?

 

[bilby]

I get the basics. Hamid Karzai and then Ashraf Ghani ran a shit show of a corrupt government, who only managed to stay in power becasue they were held under the arms with American money. Without the spigot of free cash, it fell apart with astonishing speed.

The Taliban couldn't possibly have seized power any faster. So clearly the Afghan people really really preferred the Taliban.

Or resistance was futile. The people with the guns seized power back, they weren't given it. We saw the people desperate to leave on the airfields.

Yes. But that's describing the symptom. Not the cause.

So blacks welcomed Jim Crow in the South and allowed Reconstrudtion to end.

What?

Try answering why did the Taliban have the biggest guns?

They had support from third parties.

At worst the average rural Afghan would have been agnostic on government. We saw what the mobs of people desperate to flee in the city thought of Taliban rule at the airport.

Who gave the Taliban guns? What's the geopolitics at play here?

You do know that guns aren't particularly difficult to make? Particularly weapons like the AK47? And that the Pashtuns have a huge cottage industry making guns, mostly copies of guns made elsewhere?

In the Afghanistan/Pakistan border region you can buy pretty much any kind of gun that has ever been used anywhere. You can even buy replica "Brown Bess" muskets that the locals have been manufacturing ever since they obtained some samples from the British Army.

Who gave the Taliban guns? The Taliban gave the Taliban guns.

Of course, they also buy guns from whoever is selling. It's not like they're hard up for cash, as the world's largest producer of opiates.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I get the basics. Hamid Karzai and then Ashraf Ghani ran a shit show of a corrupt government, who only managed to stay in power becasue they were held under the arms with American money. Without the spigot of free cash, it fell apart with astonishing speed.

The Taliban couldn't possibly have seized power any faster. So clearly the Afghan people really really preferred the Taliban.

Or resistance was futile. The people with the guns seized power back, they weren't given it. We saw the people desperate to leave on the airfields.

Yes. But that's describing the symptom. Not the cause.

So blacks welcomed Jim Crow in the South and allowed Reconstrudtion to end.

What?

Try answering why did the Taliban have the biggest guns?

They had support from third parties.

At worst the average rural Afghan would have been agnostic on government. We saw what the mobs of people desperate to flee in the city thought of Taliban rule at the airport.

Who gave the Taliban guns? What's the geopolitics at play here?

You do know that guns aren't particularly difficult to make? Particularly weapons like the AK47? And that the Pashtuns have a huge cottage industry making guns, mostly copies of guns made elsewhere?

In the Afghanistan/Pakistan border region you can buy pretty much any kind of gun that has ever been used anywhere. You can even buy replica "Brown Bess" muskets that the locals have been manufacturing ever since they obtained some samples from the British Army.

Who gave the Taliban guns? The Taliban gave the Taliban guns.

Of course, they also buy guns from whoever is selling. It's not like they're hard up for cash, as the world's largest producer of opiates.

Jimmy Higgins was the guy who said that the gun supply was the key to understanding this. I was just asking him to expand. I suggest you direct your question to him. No, I don't understand his point either... yet.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Why are the Pashtun sympathetic towards the Taliban?

This is me, just opining and I could be wrong:

My recollection is that the Taliban started out as a religious/political movement out of the Pashtun ethnic tribe. They probably "empower" fellow Pashtun males by providing opportunity for leadership over others. It's a system of ethnic tribalism, religion, and patriarchy.

What does an Afghan need? You would think economic opportunity, but I imagine (could be wrong) that Afghanistan is very lacking in infrastructure. The world could spend a few decades on setting up economic, structural, and scientific infrastructure in Afghanistan with the goal of helping Afghanistan to be self-sufficient in the hi-tech global economy, but I don't think they are anywhere near that. So, instead, they are educated in copies from an old book, seek stable relative power over others, fear for their lives if upsetting the local powers that be, and do what they can to survive.

The point I am stressing is seeking "stable, relative power over others" because there is a lack of opportunity for growth in the direction of a free, advanced society. My thought is that conservative systems that include patriarchy are often generally harmful to most male members in the sense that if the whole of society flipped a switch simultaneously and practiced more equality, the majority of males would suddenly be better off. But with little other opportunities provided by infrastructure and strong institutions where opposition is also tribally based, there is some stability and relative power over others (women) and non-Pashtuns. So, there is a high risk of losing opportunity (and life) for any individual Pashtun male to try to change. Thus, they are "stuck."

Here is an interesting paper on the subject which at least seems superficially different than my opining:

The Paradox of the Heavy-handed Insurgent: Public Support for the Taliban Among Afghan Pashtuns. | START.umd.edu

Afghanistan is a profoundly insecure country, with a very high rate of insurgent violence, affecting large swathes of the population. Despite contributing to physical and economic insecurity across the country, Taliban insurgents have succeeded in creating what we call the “paradox of the...

www.start.umd.edu

I know Al-Shabab are popular in Somalia because Al-Shabab run communities are less corrupt than the more secular alternatives. The Islamistic fantaticism is what makes them less corrupt.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I get the basics. Hamid Karzai and then Ashraf Ghani ran a shit show of a corrupt government, who only managed to stay in power becasue they were held under the arms with American money. Without the spigot of free cash, it fell apart with astonishing speed.

The Taliban couldn't possibly have seized power any faster. So clearly the Afghan people really really preferred the Taliban.

Or resistance was futile. The people with the guns seized power back, they weren't given it. We saw the people desperate to leave on the airfields.

Yes. But that's describing the symptom. Not the cause.

So blacks welcomed Jim Crow in the South and allowed Reconstrudtion to end.

What?

Sorry, you are a self-professed expert on all things America so I just figured you'd undertstand the parallel.

I never said I was. Your passive aggressiveness is noted.

In America, African Americans enjoyed a brief period of rise after the Civil War. They won court cases, made money, were happy. But even before Reconstruction came to an end, African Americans began to recoil a bit, weary of the changing tides. And then Reconstruction ends, and Jim Crow stats seeping in. African Americans didn't want this to happen, they didn't choose for it to happen, but they sought to hold onto what they had and make fewer waves. They could have resisted strongly, in the north and south to the systemic racism that was starting, but they didn't.

Much like the people in Afghanistan, they didn't have a choice. It was rise up and likely die or accept what was coming if they couldn't escape. Large portions of Afghanistan never quite understood the concept of Democracy to begin and others just struggled to exist, they didn't need to bother themselves with ensuring justice in their Government sphere... that never really extended to them in the first place. In the cities, people knew what was coming, knew they couldn't stop it without a lot of bloodshed. And those that couldn't escape were stuck.

The events in both cases around them were viewed to be bigger than they were, and there was no stopping it without a massive amount of suffering. Accepting what is viewed as the inevitability of tyranny is not the same as accepting tyranny.

Certainly, some support the Taliban, but your claim seems a bit hyperbolic and out of touch. But... par for the course really.

I think you give Islamism too much credit. I find it hard to believe there's any kind of Islamist mastermind puppeteering this. Based on everything we've seen from Islamism so far, they're the world's most retarded conspiracy. The nice thing about being rich is that rich people get a lot of second chances. That's the role of oil money in the Islamic world. But once they get power they keep doing dumb shit with that power. So it all keeps falling apart.

Democracy can't work in a tribal society. If you're going to vote and you know that the dominant tribe, whatever one that is, will use their government power to enrich their own tribe, at the expense of everyone else, then you will always just vote for whatever tribe you belong to, no matter what their policies are. If you know that those voting for you are doing so based on tribal affiliation, and not policy or ideology, then what are your incentives? We all respond to incentives. Politically elected leaders, do as well. There's a bunch of civic steps that need to be reached before democracy is on the table for a multi-ethnic culture. Afghanistan clearly isn't there.

I don't think Jim Crow laws and US racial segregation are at all relevant here. US slavery was a result of very specific set of historical circumstances. We're not in that world any longer. The last half of the 19'th century was peak Enlightenment craziness. The arrogance with which the educated thought they understood the world has not been the same before or since. And that had some pretty bizarre consequences on public policy around the turn of the 19'th century.

Try answering why did the Taliban have the biggest guns?

They had support from third parties.

At worst the average rural Afghan would have been agnostic on government. We saw what the mobs of people desperate to flee in the city thought of Taliban rule at the airport.

Who gave the Taliban guns? What's the geopolitics at play here?

Pakistan, Russia, Iran... where have you been?

You're not construcing a theory here. You're just spouting big words. If you have an argument, please make the effort.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Russia, Pakistan, Iran?? They also have guns already and could have stolen some from various occupation forces over the decades.

Ok. Did they?

Where do the Taliban get their money and weapons from?

The Taliban have built a financial empire, but it could be thinly stretched as they become the Afghan government

www.independent.co.uk

More recently:

Planes, guns, night-vision goggles: The Taliban's new U.S.-made war chest

About a month ago, Afghanistan's ministry of defense posted on social media photographs of seven brand new helicopters arriving in Kabul delivered by the United States.

www.reuters.com

Alright. That's how the Taliban made money. But why the Taliban specifically? Why not some other group in Afghanistan? What makes the Taliban special as a political unit? By the looks of it, these methods to make money could be used by any group. Why didn't another group do it?

 

[aupmanyav]

Why do the Afghans like Taliban so much?

Do they? Are there no protests? But what can one do if the rulers have no compunction in stoning, shooting, or beheading? They are under a vicious grip.
Taliban have their strong presence in Pakistan also. All this because of Shariah and Islamism. That is the greatest worry of Pakistani military and the rich in Pakistan. They created a Frankenstein (of course, with help from US), and it is trying to turn on them.
Can people protest in North Korea, China, Russia, Myanmar and other countries ruled by despot?

Why not some other group in Afghanistan? What makes the Taliban special as a political unit? By the looks of it, these methods to make money could be used by any group. Why didn't another group do it?

Others also were doing that. Afghanistan had many war lords. But Taliban eliminated all of them. The last one was in Panjshir valley.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Why do the Afghans like Taliban so much?

Do they? Are there no protests? But what can one do if the rulers have no compunction in stoning, shooting, or beheading? They are under a vicious grip.
Taliban have their strong presence in Pakistan also. All this because of Shariah and Islamism. That is the greatest worry of Pakistani military and the rich in Pakistan. They created a Frankenstein (of course, with help from US), and it is trying to turn on them.
Can people protest in North Korea, China, Russia, Myanmar and other countries ruled by despot?

Why not some other group in Afghanistan? What makes the Taliban special as a political unit? By the looks of it, these methods to make money could be used by any group. Why didn't another group do it?

Others also were doing that. Afghanistan had many war lords. But Taliban eliminated all of them. The last one was in Panjshir valley.

So what's the secret sauce here? What makes the Taliban special?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Russia, Pakistan, Iran?? They also have guns already and could have stolen some from various occupation forces over the decades.

Ok. Did they?

Where do the Taliban get their money and weapons from?

The Taliban have built a financial empire, but it could be thinly stretched as they become the Afghan government

www.independent.co.uk

More recently:

Planes, guns, night-vision goggles: The Taliban's new U.S.-made war chest

About a month ago, Afghanistan's ministry of defense posted on social media photographs of seven brand new helicopters arriving in Kabul delivered by the United States.

www.reuters.com

Alright. That's how the Taliban made money. But why the Taliban specifically? Why not some other group in Afghanistan? What makes the Taliban special as a political unit? By the looks of it, these methods to make money could be used by any group. Why didn't another group do it?

I think other groups did it, too, and some of these groups were associated with non-Pashtun ethnicities, generally concentrated in the north. The Pashtun ethnicity is the largest subpopulation, but concentrated more in the south. The alliance against Taliban had a lot of northern warlords. Some of those were into selling opium...is my recollection.

According to this 2007 news article, political stability in the north created development and infrastructure to begin transitioning away from a drug economy:

Stability cuts Afghan opium output in north: U.S.

Political stability has helped cut opium poppy production in northern Afghanistan and output is concentrated in southern areas where the Taliban is active, U.S. drug czar John Walters said on Thursday.

www.reuters.com

That was a slice in time...Afghanistan has probably slid backward now.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Do they? Are there no protests? But what can one do if the rulers have no compunction in stoning, shooting, or beheading? They are under a vicious grip.

I think the argument is that among a group of tribal terrorists, all of whom practice same, why is it the Taliban come out on top? My guess is that they are just a tad more brutal and a tad more clever.

 

[aupmanyav]

So what's the secret sauce here? What makes the Taliban special?

Nothing special. They are just like other Islamic extremist organizations the world-over, Boko Haram, Islamic Brotherhood, ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan, Lashkar-e-Taiyaba, PFI and Hizb-ul-Mujahideen in India, Jamat-ul-Mujahideen in Bangladesh, etc. Names keep on changing.
Money comes in various ways sale of surplus arms, narcotics, extortion, fake currency, sale of minerals, piracy; wherever it can be extracted from.

 

[Elixir]

Disagree. Taliban is "special" among that group because of its outsized revenue stream.
They collect taxes and sell drugs, not to mention industrial scale looting of antiquities.

 

[TomC]

They are just like other Islamic extremist organizations the world-over, Boko Haram, Islamic Brotherhood, ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan, Lashkar-e-Taiyaba, PFI and Hizb-ul-Mujahideen in India, Jamat-ul-Mujahideen in Bangladesh, etc. Names keep on changing.

It's not just Islamic extremists.

Why is Trump so popular?
Why are fundamental Christians so powerful?
Why did fundamental Christianists decide that Trump is a Christian?
Why did Christian patriots decide that the Electoral College needed to be crashed?

I dunno. And I live here in this country. Have for over 60 years. Grew up in a mixed home(Mom was a Democrat, Dad was a Republican).

I can't even figure out what is going on here.
Tom

 

[bilby]

Do they? Are there no protests? But what can one do if the rulers have no compunction in stoning, shooting, or beheading? They are under a vicious grip.

I think the argument is that among a group of tribal terrorists, all of whom practice same, why is it the Taliban come out on top? My guess is that they are just a tad more brutal and a tad more clever.

Or just luckier. If a bunch of people fight until only one is left, you might not be able to work out who will win, but it's easy to work out who did win.

 

[barbos]

Speed of the fall was not astonishing. People knew it would fall, so why even try to save it?
What would be the point? US spent 20 years and there is literally nothing to remember them for.
At the same time people still remember soviets, and they remember them doing good.

I don't think the Afghani's have many fond memories of the Soviets. After 1926 up to the communist uprising and Soviet invasion, Afghanistan was stable, peaceful and prosperous. The Soviets did what the Soviets are famous for, wrecked the economy. Ever since that time Afghanistan has been in an endless war. Why would the Afghanis look favouribly on that time? Are you reading too much Russian propaganda again?

That's bullshit. First, it was not stable, otherwise USSR would not have invaded. And second, economically USSR did a lot of good, building schools, hospitals, sending afghans to study to Russia, the usual stuff. Their (really unavoidable) mistake was this religion thing, which piece of shit Raygun used. But then again, it was US provocation from the start.

 

[laughing dog]

According to Russian apologists, Russia only acts under the delusional perception of US provocation. Don’t they realize that childish excuse insults Russia as well as any rational person’s intelligence?

 

[steve_bank]

Stability and safety after years of chaos is preferable to the failed attempt at democracy?

I ;istened to a reporter that was alowoed access to a small town somewhere in maybe Somalia that was taken over by extreme Muslims. As he put it the town was safe and peaceful. People and businesses did not lock doors.