Mississippi Passes "More Dead Kids Please" bill. Texas responds w/ "hold my beer"

[Emily Lake]

HOW DO WE KNOW THAT THE PENIS-HAVER IN OUR MIDST DOESN'T HAVE TESTOSTERONE?

Usually people having a penis without testicles is a really good hint.

Just to be clear... You're advocating for a genital inspection.

 

[Emily Lake]

I would like Loren and Jarhyn and everyone else who thinks that Emily and I are unreasonable bigots to imagine that they have a 12 or 13 year old daughter or niece. Imagine that she’s just started to go to say, a local water park or the mall with her friends, dropped off by parents. She’s also just started to participate in competitive sports at the local Y.

Tell me how you are going to help her determine who is and who is not a threat. In detail.

If there's a hostile male in the women's room they're going to be disguised.

It seems like your answer is that you'd do nothing at all to help your daughter determine who is a threat. Pretty much just "suck it up" and let men do whatever they want to.

 

[Emily Lake]

I keep wondering what could happen to a trans woman with male parts wearing a dress in a men's room

There is some risk of running into a rabidly zealous religious nutball who beats them up. But so far as I can tell, the overwhelming vast majority of men do not care if a transwoman shows up in the men's room. It's a guy in a dress, nobody actually cares. Other males are relatively low risk to men in terms of physical strength. Even small effeminate males have a physical advantage over the majority of women.

 

[Jarhyn]

HOW DO WE KNOW THAT THE PENIS-HAVER IN OUR MIDST DOESN'T HAVE TESTOSTERONE?

Usually people having a penis without testicles is a really good hint.

Just to be clear... You're advocating for a genital inspection.

No, I'm advocating for an ID which does not, in fact, involve the need for anyone to actually reveal their genitals to anyone else. As it is, you are on the other side of a coin demanding... Genital inspections for anyone who looks too "mannish".

PEOPLE WITHOUT TESTICLES ARE ABSOLUTELY NOT THE PHYSICAL EQUAL OF THAT SAME UNDERLYING PHYSIOLOGY WHO HAVE THEM.

This is entirely the basis behind why we do not allow "female" athletes to inject testosterone, and why it is considered a performance enhancing chemical.

I know this from personal experience, seeing as I myself have stopped taking the steroid, and am pointedly aware of my loss of physical ability.

I can maybe go half as hard as I used to at anything, and I'm just over half a year "in".

 

[Emily Lake]

Evidence of what?!?

The evidence is that this is caused not by a penis but by testosterone.

The dismissal of actual biological effects of a specific chemical on thought processes is insulting and uninformed.

Even if people exposed to testosterone train themselves to be on the look out for the effects, the effects and likelihood of slips on control of the behavior is still increased by the testosterone.

Stop telling women what we're allowed to be concerned by, stop telling us to ignore eons of history of abuse at the hands of males.

Also... this really ends up reading as if you're making excuses for rapists and men who commit sex crimes. It comes across as if you're saying "oh no, the rapist really is a good guy, he just couldn't handle the testosterone!"

The majority of men manage to go through life without sexually assaulting or raping any women at all. "Slips on control" seems like a really bad position to take.

If you want to pretend that the risk of pregnancy doesn't factor into the awfulness of what can happen at all, that's the only other scientifically validated fork here.

Sure sure, only the risk of pregnancy is scientific. The risk of physical and emotional harm, the absolute violation, that's all just imagined by women and doesn't count in your book?

It's kind of ridiculous that, even across the ancient world, people (including women) actually trusted eunuchs in spaces for females!

ROFL. Across the ancient world, eunuchs were largely BANISHED to spaces for females, because they were seen as less-than and not fully male - by which was meant not fully human. Because across the ancient world, females were viewed as the property of men, objects for men's use, and were excluded from the vast majority of social, economic, and political life.

While I'm not going to say there's zero risk of rape, I WOULD say the risk of rape from a eunuch is equal to the risk of rape from female (which is to say, it probably happens, but extremely rarely.

I would personally expect someone to have their testosterone managed before accepting them into spaces and sports for those whose testosterone has been (ostensibly) managed. Sperms in many ways provide a convenient cutout as a mechanism to close a loop on a number of corner and edge cases for sorting (such as high T females who still have a right to protect themselves from sperms), but this is only for private spaces, not for sports.

Well gee, it's nice that you have granted those high testosterone women the right to be protected from being raped. How very manly and magnanimous of your to allow this as a result of your manly views and manly decision-making.

The bigger issue comes in where some sports have actually decided on limits to testosterone which disqualify some people born without testicles... There needs to be some discussion on what, and whether some sports even need endogenous testosterone caps. I personally don't think they do as long as the requirements are such that those who have testicles either get them removed or take a suppressant to antagonize their endogenous testosterone.

Are you aware that women are not just "men without balls"? Seriously, are completely oblivious to the numerous physical differences between males and females? Please stop wishcasting.

I would much rather support an ID marker that identifies sperm-positive (really more "not sperm negative") and testosterone-positive statuses rather than "M" or "F", since this actually discusses biological realities rather than discussing bad proxies. In fact I would want this more just because I don't want it to be legal or even possible for someone to lie about whether they have been snipped or have sperms in the first place. I've seen a few people lie about that blatantly, and I think trust should not be a part of that equation.

In your world, there are men - virile men rife with testosterone... and then there is "everyone else". Apparently women don't get to be their own half of the fucking species, they're nothing more than failed men.

For those who are S- and T-, then there is really no argument against their inclusion into a space. For those who would falsify their ID I have zero compunctions against "Trueing it up". Which is to say, I have no problem with the government castrating those who lie about having been castrated, and I have no issue or complaint on giving vasectomies to those who lie about infertility.

People are not going to castrate themselves and adopt a female persona to feel "powerful". It's simply not going to happen. Or at least it won't happen at any higher instance rate than females who install hidden cameras in bathrooms because they themselves are predators.

The fact that you are so completely oblivious to your rampant patriarchal position, your premise of male as the cornerstone, and of "not fully male" as the sole characteristics of "other" is mind-boggling.

Honestly, you're the guy yelling "All Lives Matter" and bringing in so many arguments for why it's okay that black men are disproportionately targeted by the police, and why because it happens to some white guys too there's not a problem.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That isn't science. That is blind conjecture. Testosterone impacts certain behaviors

No, testosterone impacts the internal thought process because that's where behavior comes from.

Dylan Roof shot folks up because they were maladjusted AND on testosterone just like many people commit crimes because they are maladjusted AND have lead exposure, just like many folks get cancer because they are exposed to carcinogens, while many exposed to the same thing don't.

It's still the causal factor which tips the balance.

* claim not cited.

As I said, I have direct observational experience on this one that testosterone absolutely contributes to bad behavior of those unprepared to counter it's effects with a consistent effort.

Before I went on HRT I didn't know for sure if it was just me, ie some bizarre schizophrenia, or if it was the testosterone that was causing the stream of thoughts, invasives, and compartmentalization.

You could probably get a hold of some Spironolactone and see for yourself how, exactly, testosterone affects you.

That isn't how science works. It isn't a one and done. I mean, if it does, then it'll need to explain my mother's anger management issues (something she got from her natural mom... (my Mother never knew her mom until her 40s) and unforunately I got from her).

Science is based on broad data collection and predicting which groups will exhibit what behaviors. Most men don't commit violent actions that harm others. However, most men that are in women's locker rooms don't have good intentions. And again, this is all a red herring to begin with. Testosterone levels in a human being are 100% undetectable by human beings via visual observation.

 

[Emily Lake]

Sexual assault and rape coming from a population are symptoms, not the disease, if we are looking for something we can isolate on a causal basis.

You MUST answer honestly to the question "what is causal of the population difference" before you ask "what quality do we separate populations upon".

Eons of evolution which has rewarded aggression in males of all mammalian species with a higher likelihood of reproduction paired with eons of social structure which granted power to males and relegated to females to secondary position often indistinguishable from property. Thousands and thousands of years of a society in which males dominated, and structured society to reinforce their position of power. Thousands and thousands of years during which raping a woman or sexually assaulting a woman wasn't considered a crime at all, and often wasn't even considered a notable transgression because women weren't viewed as fully human. They were "non-men" and therefore "other" not deserving of consideration as fully developed individuals of the species.

I mean shit, over the last few months what do you think the "noise" I frequently reference as no longer being in my head actually contained? Its not something I couldn't keep contained, but it was a constant, draining effort.

I can't actually discern any difference at all. Not in your vehemence while posting, not in the egregious disregard for females, not in your level of compassion. I see no difference at all.

The only difference I can tell is that now you seem to be arguing vitriolically that men without balls should have the RIGHT to be in female spaces against the will and consent of those women. Now you seem to be arguing for a personal desire to be included in women's spaces by insisting that the views of those women don't count and aren't valid and should be ignored because you say so.

 

[Toni]

Dylan Roof murdered people because he was mentally ill, racist and mal adjusted AND HAD ACCESS TO A GLOCK 41:45!

None of us know how much testosterone or methamphetamine or steroids or other substance naturally occurring or ingested he had coursing through his veins. He’s a sick fuck who used a gun to prove his devotion to neonazi ideals.

 

[Emily Lake]

I think you are being naive about the linkage between testosterone and criminal behavior, or perhaps purposefully obtuse in your reply.

We can in fact observe that the only documented school shooters who have been female, or women, or been in any way identifiable as not "cismale" have been on testosterone.

I believe in giving credit where it is due, especially seeing as I have direct causal observation on the effect testosterone has on the human mind. I can turn it on and off like a light switch, albeit one that takes a few weeks for the light to come back on, and several days for it to shut off again.

Testosterone is correlated with aggression, just as all steroids are. The problem is that removal of testosterone from a male does not unambiguously result in lower levels of aggression. And it does not result in lower rates of violent criminality.

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

Context The treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment, including hormonal treatment and surgery aimed at making the person's body as congruent with the opposite sex as possible. There is a dearth of long term, follow-up studies after sex reassignment. Objective To estimate mortality...

journals.plos.org

This is a study of people who have had sex reassignment including surgery and hormones.

The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime. By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime.

Even after removing the means to produce testosterone, male-to-female transsexuals retained a male pattern of criminality. Female-to-male transsexuals demonstrated a rate of criminality that is higher than that of the female control group, but lower than that of the male control group, as well as lower than that of male-to-female transsexuals.

If you want to impugn some other causal factor to behavior, I can point to someone who has none of those and who still has a penis.

Just how important is it to you that we all acknowledge that you have chosen to remove your testicles?

 

[Jarhyn]

Eons of evolution which has rewarded aggression in males of all mammalian species with a higher likelihood of reproduction

*When plied with testosterone, the mechanism of differentiation of behavioral pressures.

Thousands and thousands of years of a society in which males dominated,

Hmm... Didn't see eunuchs dominating so much.

There are about as many eunuch kings as there have been female kings through the ages.

It makes me rather think you are being a little willfully blind to the reality that there is a chemical trigger for these differences, especially since the link has been well explored throughout the ages.

 

[Jarhyn]

I think you are being naive about the linkage between testosterone and criminal behavior, or perhaps purposefully obtuse in your reply.

We can in fact observe that the only documented school shooters who have been female, or women, or been in any way identifiable as not "cismale" have been on testosterone.

I believe in giving credit where it is due, especially seeing as I have direct causal observation on the effect testosterone has on the human mind. I can turn it on and off like a light switch, albeit one that takes a few weeks for the light to come back on, and several days for it to shut off again.

If you want to impugn some other causal factor to behavior, I can point to someone who has none of those and who still has a penis.

Testosterone is correlated with aggression, just as all steroids are. The problem is that removal of testosterone from a male does not unambiguously result in lower levels of aggression. And it does not result in lower rates of violent criminality.

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

Context The treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment, including hormonal treatment and surgery aimed at making the person's body as congruent with the opposite sex as possible. There is a dearth of long term, follow-up studies after sex reassignment. Objective To estimate mortality...

journals.plos.org

This is a study of people who have had sex reassignment including surgery and hormones.

The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime. By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime.

Even after removing the means to produce testosterone, male-to-female transsexuals retained a male pattern of criminality. Female-to-male transsexuals demonstrated a rate of criminality that is higher than that of the female control group, but lower than that of the male control group, as well as lower than that of male-to-female transsexuals.

Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

This indicates a causal link to testosterone.

The fact, complete and utter fact that MTF represent an order of magnitude fewer convictions than their population representation trumps all the rest.

 

[TomC]

In this thread, we woefully confused and lamentably unsophisticated women are assured by a man that our concerns about sexual assault are delusions.

You don’t understand, Jarhyn. You do NOT understand women’s lifetime experience.

I would like Loren and Jarhyn and everyone else who thinks that Emily and I are unreasonable bigots to imagine that they have a 12 or 13 year old daughter or niece.

Honestly, I just don't understand how a male could so casually dismiss these rather strong opinions from women on this subject.

No amount of vague statistics or clinical pedantry justifies waving away the issues and concerns of cis-female people. For that matter, the issues of us guys who care about women as well.

It might be different if women had palatial private spaces and guys were expected to go out back in the alley or something. Then it might compare to the bad old days of Jim Crow racism, but there's nothing remotely comparable going on here.

The bottom line can be summed up in a couple of sentences. The large majority of men are not pervey and rapey, but the large majority of pervey and rapey people are men. We guys, however civilized, present a threat to women for which there is no comparable threat to us. Women must deal with that every day of their lives, and they always have.

Most of us civilized types wish that weren't true, but that doesn't change the reality. Dismissing it as irrational or ill-informed doesn't either. The enormous bulk of society is fine with sex segregated public spaces for some personal business under many circumstances. Sorry if the tiny sliver of trans people are unhappy about that.
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

Honestly, I just don't understand how a male could so casually dismiss these rather strong opinions from women on this subject

For the same reason I casually dismiss prohibition era concerns, that I dismiss the concerns of MADD, that I dismiss the concerns of the satanic panic movement, that I dismiss the concerns of the anti-comicbook era.

There IS a subset of folks intent on shoving though whatever cockamamie idea comes to fore to accuse some group of something that requires us to "think about the children".

It's not the penis, it's the testosterone, and attacking trans women because they want access to a space NOT full of 'roided up folks is valid IFF they are not also 'roided up. Similarly, I think it's valid to exclude those who produce sperm.

Emily could just accept "ok, I will absolutely tolerate people in the bathroom so long as they don't have testicles and aren't shooting steroids, or have a valid physical security argument such as egg/sperm."

She is hardline against ANYONE born with a penis being included. That's the difference.

I present a compromise. The fact that she utterly rejects it puts the lie to her claims of concern.

 

[Emily Lake]

s I said, I have direct observational experience on this one that testosterone absolutely contributes to bad behavior of those unprepared to counter it's effects with a consistent effort.

Before I went on HRT I didn't know for sure if it was just me, ie some bizarre schizophrenia, or if it was the testosterone that was causing the stream of thoughts, invasives, and compartmentalization.

You could probably get a hold of some Spironolactone and see for yourself how, exactly, testosterone affects you.

It equates to having an additional devil on your shoulder giving you at best questionable advice and the means to follow through on it, and those who are ill-equiped to handle that advice, particularly when it is bad, will be pushed across a threshold.

As we can see by the difference in testosterone-exposed criminals and minimal-testosterone criminals, there is a HUGE outsized effect, even just among males. It's along the lines of an order of magnitude.

I'm just gonna go ahead and say it. This is a YOU problem. It doesn't seem like any of the other men in this thread, who have been exposed to testosterone throughout their lives, and are still subject to its influence, have the same difficulties that you have.

Yes, there is a correlation between steroids and aggression. This is an evolutionary outcome. But the overwhelming majority of males manage to NOT commit violent acts and to NOT struggle to keep their thoughts under control. That you, individually, do struggle with this is not solely a result of testosterone.

And as I said already, I have been unable to observe any difference in the aggression of your posts from before and after your alteration and the removal of testosterone from your system.

 

[Emily Lake]

I know this from personal experience, seeing as I myself have stopped taking the steroid, and am pointedly aware of my loss of physical ability.

You will lose physical strength relative to other men. You will not, however, end up having the level of strength of a woman.

Seriously, you are persistent in placing your entire perspective from the assumption that males are the default, and that "not men" is anyone who doesn't meet that standard. You seem unable to understand that women are not "lesser men" or "failed men" or "not men". Women are fundamentally different.

Your lack of testosterone in your system does not make you any less male. It certainly does not make you comparable to a female.

 

[Emily Lake]

Hmm... Didn't see eunuchs dominating so much.

There are about as many eunuch kings as there have been female kings through the ages.

Do you honestly think that citing the historical strangle hold of sexism and patriarchy is somehow helping your argument that men who don't produce sperm should be considered synonymous with women?

Honestly, you're using the argument of patriarchy itself here.

 

[Jarhyn]

I know this from personal experience, seeing as I myself have stopped taking the steroid, and am pointedly aware of my loss of physical ability.

You will lose physical strength relative to other men. You will not, however, end up having the level of strength of a woman.

This is not supported by any of the major sports regulatory bodies.

Seriously, you are persistent in placing your entire perspective from the assumption that males are the default, and that "not men" is anyone who doesn't meet that standard. You seem unable to understand that women are not "lesser men" or "failed men" or "not men". Women are fundamentally different.

You have a burden of proof for establishing any particular claim of fundamental difference.

The science indicates it's a matter of hormones which creates the differences I am discussing, the ones which impact violent behavior.

Your lack of testosterone in your system does not make you any less male. It certainly does not make you comparable to a female.

No, a lack of testicles would make me "less male", seeing as male is defined by exactly "sperms".

As to making me less masculine, it absolutely does that, and if I wanted to be as feminine as you... Well, can't undo a cut, and I wouldn't want to push further in that direction.

 

[Emily Lake]

I think you are being naive about the linkage between testosterone and criminal behavior, or perhaps purposefully obtuse in your reply.

We can in fact observe that the only documented school shooters who have been female, or women, or been in any way identifiable as not "cismale" have been on testosterone.

I believe in giving credit where it is due, especially seeing as I have direct causal observation on the effect testosterone has on the human mind. I can turn it on and off like a light switch, albeit one that takes a few weeks for the light to come back on, and several days for it to shut off again.

If you want to impugn some other causal factor to behavior, I can point to someone who has none of those and who still has a penis.

Testosterone is correlated with aggression, just as all steroids are. The problem is that removal of testosterone from a male does not unambiguously result in lower levels of aggression. And it does not result in lower rates of violent criminality.

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

Context The treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment, including hormonal treatment and surgery aimed at making the person's body as congruent with the opposite sex as possible. There is a dearth of long term, follow-up studies after sex reassignment. Objective To estimate mortality...

journals.plos.org

This is a study of people who have had sex reassignment including surgery and hormones.

The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime. By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime.

Even after removing the means to produce testosterone, male-to-female transsexuals retained a male pattern of criminality. Female-to-male transsexuals demonstrated a rate of criminality that is higher than that of the female control group, but lower than that of the male control group, as well as lower than that of male-to-female transsexuals.

Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

This indicates a causal link to testosterone.

The fact, complete and utter fact that MTF represent an order of magnitude fewer convictions than their population representation trumps all the rest.

Learn to fucking read. Holy shit, it's right there.

 

[Jarhyn]

Hmm... Didn't see eunuchs dominating so much.

There are about as many eunuch kings as there have been female kings through the ages.

Do you honestly think that citing the historical strangle hold of sexism and patriarchy is somehow helping your argument that men who don't produce sperm should be considered synonymous with women?

Honestly, you're using the argument of patriarchy itself here.

Testosterone.

Personally, I have outlined THREE fundamental factors at play: testosterone as impacts physical and certain mental outcomes, tensor structure which impacts mental modeling, and gonads which impact the production of sperm.

There are trans-women today on all of the far side of those barriers. Even of the socialization barriers.

 

[Emily Lake]

It's not the penis, it's the testosterone, and attacking trans women because they want access to a space NOT full of 'roided up folks is valid IFF they are not also 'roided up.

Nope. It's more than just testosterone.

Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls but not compared to males. This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality.