Mississippi Passes "More Dead Kids Please" bill. Texas responds w/ "hold my beer"

[Emily Lake]

What part of "testosterone and sperm is clearly the problem, not the penis" makes you think I said "let people in who produce testosterone and sperm"?

The only point at which I would endorse that is for people under the age of 18, or 21, or whatever age people are allowed to get their testicles off, and only to the extent that they have been off testosterone for long enough to get their testicles off, were they to be old enough.

HOW DO WE KNOW THAT THE PENIS-HAVER IN OUR MIDST DOESN'T HAVE TESTOSTERONE?

 

[Emily Lake]

They have a right to believe what they want. That doesn't make it not a delusion, though.

In this thread, we woefully confused and lamentably unsophisticated women are assured by a man that our concerns about sexual assault are delusions.

I'm calling that a combo hit of Rule 12 and Rule 13.

 

[Emily Lake]

You're tarring all who share a characteristic with an evildoer.

If it's ok to keep men out it's also ok to keep blacks out.

If the statistics were anywhere remotely near what they are for male assualts on females, I might make that argument. As it stands, they're not in the same ballpark. They're not even in the same fucking state as the ballpark. They might even be on a different continent altogether.


Loren - why are you so dedicated to ensuring that males get to have access to vulnerable females, against the will and consent of those women?

 

[Jarhyn]

What part of "testosterone and sperm is clearly the problem, not the penis" makes you think I said "let people in who produce testosterone and sperm"?

The only point at which I would endorse that is for people under the age of 18, or 21, or whatever age people are allowed to get their testicles off, and only to the extent that they have been off testosterone for long enough to get their testicles off, were they to be old enough.

HOW DO WE KNOW THAT THE PENIS-HAVER IN OUR MIDST DOESN'T HAVE TESTOSTERONE?

Usually people having a penis without testicles is a really good hint.

Granted there are medical validations that can be done too, and a card issued, unless you are saying you agree with compulsory genital examinations.

The fact is that trans women, especially ones on HRT, have a large body of both evidence and endocrinology that in many respects validates them as even less testosterone-addled than you, Emily Lake.

 

[Rhea]

And you, Jarhyn and now Loren, still persist in your #notallmen insults.

Your dismissal and derision about thousands of years of evidence is insulting and uninformed.

AND IT HARMS THE PROGRESS OF TRANS WOMEN.

As I have said already, I am in full support of rights for trans women. I don’t even actually care if they come into bathrooms where I am.

But your insistence that you are here to tell women what they should and should not do to protect themselves, and especially what vulnerable, traumatized victims should or should not be traumatized, continues to be REVOLTING.

You try to mansplain what we should feel, what our life experiences are like, what our years and years of repeated dangers should feel like, and follow it up with nonsensical twaddle about getting to see a “testosterone card” before we let someone in, like the UNCLES and BROTHERS and FATHERS of the world, and the boys from nice families and the college swimmers that we’ve all be told are safe and we should let into our trust, because men say so.

Are you trying to tell us that trans women consider themselves women and they don’t understand that primary shared experience of women?. Are you trying to tell us that they want us to drop our lived experiene on their say so?

My guess is that trans women DON’T say that and DON’T want that and the ony one that doesn’t understand a fucking thing about women’s trauma is YOU and you are harming the integration of trans women into women’s spaces because you are shouting from the rooftops that they don’t understand why those spaces exist.

You’re doing more harm to their cause than they could ever do. You’re painting them as uncaring, entitled, arrogent men. Why would they want you to represent them like that?

You don’t understand, Jarhyn. You do NOT understand women’s lifetime experience.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'm sure someone raped with a broom handle would feel the same way about brooms, generally.

You're wrong. In so many ways you're wrong. People who have been forcibly penetrated with objects against their will don't fear the objects, they fear the type of person who forcibly penetrated them. And in 99% of cases, that person is a male.

You're tarring all who share a characteristic with an evildoer.

If Emily Lake was suggesting immediate deadly violence against the person, you'd have a point.

You're arguing against metaphors and analogies instead of what is actually being stated.

The irony here is that pre-surgical transwoman should be afforded rights due to how they feel about being in the men's locker room... all the while ignoring how other people (women) feel about it. And coming from men, that'll have women rolling their eyes thinking "here we go again". This isn't some minor accommodation. It is a major change in policy AND EXPECTATIONS for women in a locker room.

If it's ok to keep men out it's also ok to keep blacks out.

Are you suggesting that men, in general, belong in the women's locker room? Your analogy is compatible with either case (men or transwomen).

Emily nor Toni have suggested that pre-surgical transwomen aren't allowed in the locker room because of the fact they are transgender (please stop trying to make this about intolerance of identity, it is cheap and crap)... it is the pre-surgical that is the issue. The pre-surgical creates an unusual circumstance for women that is far from precedented, forget common.

 

[Toni]

I would like Loren and Jarhyn and everyone else who thinks that Emily and I are unreasonable bigots to imagine that they have a 12 or 13 year old daughter or niece. Imagine that she’s just started to go to say, a local water park or the mall with her friends, dropped off by parents. She’s also just started to participate in competitive sports at the local Y.

Tell me how you are going to help her determine who is and who is not a threat. In detail.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I would like Loren and Jarhyn and everyone else who thinks that Emily and I are unreasonable bigots to imagine that they have a 12 or 13 year old daughter or niece. Imagine that she’s just started to go to say, a local water park or the mall with her friends, dropped off by parents. She’s also just started to participate in competitive sports at the local Y.

Tell me how you are going to help her determine who is and who is not a threat. In detail.

If there's a hostile male in the women's room they're going to be disguised.

 

[Rhea]

I would like Loren and Jarhyn and everyone else who thinks that Emily and I are unreasonable bigots to imagine that they have a 12 or 13 year old daughter or niece. Imagine that she’s just started to go to say, a local water park or the mall with her friends, dropped off by parents. She’s also just started to participate in competitive sports at the local Y.

Tell me how you are going to help her determine who is and who is not a threat. In detail.

If there's a hostile male in the women's room they're going to be disguised.

Wait, you know this from your extensive time in women’s rooms? They’re not, you know. You are Flat. Out. Wrong.

Ther most common perpetrator of sexual assault is someone you know, whom you thought was safe, or everyone told you was safe. And the strangers in bathrooms usually come in pretending they are just in the wrong place, trying to put you off-guard, and then they change instantly when they are close.

You didn’t know this?
All the women do.

 

[Toni]

I would like Loren and Jarhyn and everyone else who thinks that Emily and I are unreasonable bigots to imagine that they have a 12 or 13 year old daughter or niece. Imagine that she’s just started to go to say, a local water park or the mall with her friends, dropped off by parents. She’s also just started to participate in competitive sports at the local Y.

Tell me how you are going to help her determine who is and who is not a threat. In detail.

If there's a hostile male in the women's room they're going to be disguised.

As what? A woman? How can you tell that it's a disguise? Could it be the dangly bits?

I can't....even.......

 

[TomC]

If there's a hostile male in the women's room they're going to be disguised.

This might have been true back in the day.

When such rooms were segregated by sex. Now that men feel entitled to invade the women's room for any reason that they want to there's no reason to bother.

Why would the Hannah Tubbs of the world even bother disguising themselves? She's not the only one. She's not the only male who finds it convenient to be transgender to get access to females.
Tom

 

[lostone]

I keep wondering what could happen to a trans woman with male parts wearing a dress in a men's room

 

[Jarhyn]

Your dismissal and derision about thousands of years of evidence is insulting and uninformed

Evidence of what?!?

The evidence is that this is caused not by a penis but by testosterone.

The dismissal of actual biological effects of a specific chemical on thought processes is insulting and uninformed.

Even if people exposed to testosterone train themselves to be on the look out for the effects, the effects and likelihood of slips on control of the behavior is still increased by the testosterone.

If you want to pretend that the risk of pregnancy doesn't factor into the awfulness of what can happen at all, that's the only other scientifically validated fork here.

It's kind of ridiculous that, even across the ancient world, people (including women) actually trusted eunuchs in spaces for females!

While I'm not going to say there's zero risk of rape, I WOULD say the risk of rape from a eunuch is equal to the risk of rape from female (which is to say, it probably happens, but extremely rarely.

I would personally expect someone to have their testosterone managed before accepting them into spaces and sports for those whose testosterone has been (ostensibly) managed. Sperms in many ways provide a convenient cutout as a mechanism to close a loop on a number of corner and edge cases for sorting (such as high T females who still have a right to protect themselves from sperms), but this is only for private spaces, not for sports.

The bigger issue comes in where some sports have actually decided on limits to testosterone which disqualify some people born without testicles... There needs to be some discussion on what, and whether some sports even need endogenous testosterone caps. I personally don't think they do as long as the requirements are such that those who have testicles either get them removed or take a suppressant to antagonize their endogenous testosterone.

I would much rather support an ID marker that identifies sperm-positive (really more "not sperm negative") and testosterone-positive statuses rather than "M" or "F", since this actually discusses biological realities rather than discussing bad proxies. In fact I would want this more just because I don't want it to be legal or even possible for someone to lie about whether they have been snipped or have sperms in the first place. I've seen a few people lie about that blatantly, and I think trust should not be a part of that equation.

For those who are S- and T-, then there is really no argument against their inclusion into a space. For those who would falsify their ID I have zero compunctions against "Trueing it up". Which is to say, I have no problem with the government castrating those who lie about having been castrated, and I have no issue or complaint on giving vasectomies to those who lie about infertility.

People are not going to castrate themselves and adopt a female persona to feel "powerful". It's simply not going to happen. Or at least it won't happen at any higher instance rate than females who install hidden cameras in bathrooms because they themselves are predators.

 

[Toni]

Really, Jahryn? Sexual assault and rape: that's the issue.
Testosterone is not the issue. Billions of men are walking around with testosterone coursing through their veins right now--and managing to not rape women. Even if they have access to women.

Plus:
a) Women also produce testosterone and
b) People, males included, still rape other people with foreign objects, whether or not they have been physically or chemically castrated.

Sexual assault is simply a kind of assault. The problem with sexual assault and/or rape is the assault part. Not the penis part. Not the testosterone part.

 

[Jarhyn]

Really, Jahryn? Sexual assault and rape: that's the issue.
Testosterone is not the issue. Billions of men are walking around with testosterone coursing through their veins right now--and managing to not rape women. Even if they have access to women.

Plus:
a) Women also produce testosterone and
b) People, males included, still rape other people with foreign objects, whether or not they have been physically or chemically castrated.

Sexual assault is simply a kind of assault. The problem with sexual assault and/or rape is the assault part. Not the penis part. Not the testosterone part.

Sexual assault and rape coming from a population are symptoms, not the disease, if we are looking for something we can isolate on a causal basis.

You MUST answer honestly to the question "what is causal of the population difference" before you ask "what quality do we separate populations upon".

Women rape folks, and they also lack a penis and testosterone.

If you want to select some group who you think "has a higher likelihood" of some behavior, without focusing a lens on causality, you are focusing a lens on stereotype and prejudice, and that's not OK when we can clearly identify the thing that actually is different between the populations: testosterone levels.

Or do you deny the clear link between XXY and criminal behavior?

There is a clear, causal link between testosterone and violent ideations... As well as between testosterone and the physical ability to do violence.

The more you have, the more often and severe compartmentalization becomes.

I mean shit, over the last few months what do you think the "noise" I frequently reference as no longer being in my head actually contained? Its not something I couldn't keep contained, but it was a constant, draining effort.

 

[Toni]

Really, Jahryn? Sexual assault and rape: that's the issue.
Testosterone is not the issue. Billions of men are walking around with testosterone coursing through their veins right now--and managing to not rape women. Even if they have access to women.

Plus:
a) Women also produce testosterone and
b) People, males included, still rape other people with foreign objects, whether or not they have been physically or chemically castrated.

Sexual assault is simply a kind of assault. The problem with sexual assault and/or rape is the assault part. Not the penis part. Not the testosterone part.

Sexual assault and rape coming from a population are symptoms, not the disease, if we are looking for something we can isolate on a causal basis.

You MUST answer honestly to the question "what is causal of the population difference" before you ask "what quality do we separate populations upon".

Women rape folks, and they also lack a penis and testosterone.

If you want to select some group who you think "has a higher likelihood" of some behavior, without focusing a lens on causality, you are focusing a lens on stereotype and prejudice, and that's not OK when we can clearly identify the thing that actually is different between the populations: testosterone levels.

Or do you deny the clear link between XXY and criminal behavior?

There is a clear, causal link between testosterone and violent ideations... As well as between testosterone and the physical ability to do violence.

The more you have, the more often and severe compartmentalization becomes.

I mean shit, over the last few months what do you think the "noise" I frequently reference as no longer being in my head actually contained? Its not something I couldn't keep contained, but it was a constant, draining effort.

1. Trisomy conditions normally do cause issues, yes. XXY is Klinefelter's syndrome. It is not linked to criminal behavior: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/kline...es called Klinefelter's,genetic sex of a baby.

I think you mean XYY, which is thought to occur in approximately 1 in every thousand male births. It does not result in higher testosterone. There are often learning disabilities and an increased presence of acne. Relatively few among us have a genetic analysis done, so prevalence isn't truly known. It is thought that most people with an extra Y chromosome die without ever knowing that they had it.

2. There is no good study that links XYY to criminal behavior. For all any of us know, every single male participating in this forum carries an extra Y. Yes, there are some serial killers who were determined to carry an extra Y. There is no known number of individuals who are doctors, lawyers, ministers, engineers, etc. with the extra Y chromosome. Most people with it don't know they have it.

 

[Jarhyn]

Really, Jahryn? Sexual assault and rape: that's the issue.
Testosterone is not the issue. Billions of men are walking around with testosterone coursing through their veins right now--and managing to not rape women. Even if they have access to women.

Plus:
a) Women also produce testosterone and
b) People, males included, still rape other people with foreign objects, whether or not they have been physically or chemically castrated.

Sexual assault is simply a kind of assault. The problem with sexual assault and/or rape is the assault part. Not the penis part. Not the testosterone part.

Sexual assault and rape coming from a population are symptoms, not the disease, if we are looking for something we can isolate on a causal basis.

You MUST answer honestly to the question "what is causal of the population difference" before you ask "what quality do we separate populations upon".

Women rape folks, and they also lack a penis and testosterone.

If you want to select some group who you think "has a higher likelihood" of some behavior, without focusing a lens on causality, you are focusing a lens on stereotype and prejudice, and that's not OK when we can clearly identify the thing that actually is different between the populations: testosterone levels.

Or do you deny the clear link between XXY and criminal behavior?

There is a clear, causal link between testosterone and violent ideations... As well as between testosterone and the physical ability to do violence.

The more you have, the more often and severe compartmentalization becomes.

I mean shit, over the last few months what do you think the "noise" I frequently reference as no longer being in my head actually contained? Its not something I couldn't keep contained, but it was a constant, draining effort.

1. Trisomy conditions normally do cause issues, yes. XXY is Klinefelter's syndrome. It is not linked to criminal behavior: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/klinefelters-syndrome/#:~:text=Klinefelter syndrome (sometimes called Klinefelter's,genetic sex of a baby.

I think you mean XYY, which is thought to occur in approximately 1 in every thousand male births. It does not result in higher testosterone. There are often learning disabilities and an increased presence of acne. Relatively few among us have a genetic analysis done, so prevalence isn't truly known. It is thought that most people with an extra Y chromosome die without ever knowing that they had it.

2. There is no good study that links XYY to criminal behavior. For all any of us know, every single male participating in this forum carries an extra Y. Yes, there are some serial killers who were determined to carry an extra Y. There is no known number of individuals who are doctors, lawyers, ministers, engineers, etc. with the extra Y chromosome. Most people with it don't know they have it.

I think you are being naive about the linkage between testosterone and criminal behavior, or perhaps purposefully obtuse in your reply.

We can in fact observe that the only documented school shooters who have been female, or women, or been in any way identifiable as not "cismale" have been on testosterone.

I believe in giving credit where it is due, especially seeing as I have direct causal observation on the effect testosterone has on the human mind. I can turn it on and off like a light switch, albeit one that takes a few weeks for the light to come back on, and several days for it to shut off again.

If you want to impugn some other causal factor to behavior, I can point to someone who has none of those and who still has a penis.

 

[Toni]

Rare breed: Audrey Hale takes infamous spot as 7th female mass shooter in US history

Mass shootings and, particularly, school shootings are far from rare in the United States. But one thing stood out greatly in Monday's senseless killings at The Covenant...

amp.marca.com

Some mass shooters were female, by any definition, but let’s go with: identified female at birth and throughout their lives.

What mass shooters have in common is significant mental illness/suicidal ideation. I know that’s not supposed to be said but it is true. Mental illness and suicidal ideation do not cause mass shootings. Many many people have very significant mental illness and suicidal ideation. A portion of those individuals carry out their audial thoughts, not always with a gun. A very tiny portion of those die as a result of a mass shooting they initiated.

Audrey Hale was trans. At least one other shooter identified as non-binary and used male pronouns.

Do I think that a lot of people struggle with mental illness ? With violent behavior? With suicidal thoughts? Yes to all of those. Do some of those people harm others? Yes—make, female, non-binary, trans—it’s not due to testosterone although steroid use has increased violent behavior. So does other forms of drug and/or alcohol abuse.

So does being abused as a child and/or a history of witnessing abuse as a child.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think you are being naive about the linkage between testosterone and criminal behavior, or perhaps purposefully obtuse in your reply.

We can in fact observe that the only documented school shooters who have been female, or women, or been in any way identifiable as not "cismale" have been on testosterone.

I believe in giving credit where it is due, especially seeing as I have direct causal observation on the effect testosterone has on the human mind. I can turn it on and off like a light switch, albeit one that takes a few weeks for the light to come back on, and several days for it to shut off again.

That isn't science. That is blind conjecture. Testosterone impacts certain behaviors. Seeing most males are not committing violent acts, that'd be evidence against testosterone having a heavy influence on criminal actions. Mental wellness, poverty, physical and mental abuse, overvalued sense of entitlement would be neurological and environmental conditions that have a heavy weight on influence some very awful actions.

Dylan Roof kill a bunch of black church goers because he was a male... or because he suffered from low self-esteem and had entitlement issues (and was a racist fuck wad)?

And, of course, the entire issue of this really being a red herring to the concerns being raised by others.

A woman discovers a naked man in her home... isn't wondering whether maybe that person has a lower than average testosterone level. Do we even know if incels have higher than average testosterone levels at all? Including the guy that murdered all those women because he couldn't get laid.

 

[Jarhyn]

That isn't science. That is blind conjecture. Testosterone impacts certain behaviors

No, testosterone impacts the internal thought process because that's where behavior comes from.

Dylan Roof shot folks up because they were maladjusted AND on testosterone just like many people commit crimes because they are maladjusted AND have lead exposure, just like many folks get cancer because they are exposed to carcinogens, while many exposed to the same thing don't.

It's still the causal factor which tips the balance.

As I said, I have direct observational experience on this one that testosterone absolutely contributes to bad behavior of those unprepared to counter it's effects with a consistent effort.

Before I went on HRT I didn't know for sure if it was just me, ie some bizarre schizophrenia, or if it was the testosterone that was causing the stream of thoughts, invasives, and compartmentalization.

You could probably get a hold of some Spironolactone and see for yourself how, exactly, testosterone affects you.

It equates to having an additional devil on your shoulder giving you at best questionable advice and the means to follow through on it, and those who are ill-equiped to handle that advice, particularly when it is bad, will be pushed across a threshold.

As we can see by the difference in testosterone-exposed criminals and minimal-testosterone criminals, there is a HUGE outsized effect, even just among males. It's along the lines of an order of magnitude.