Police Misconduct Catch All Thread

[Derec]

Its population is 50% larger than Florida's yet the crime rates are lower. <-- You can't dispute this

Not trying to. First of all, though, the population being larger than Florida's is irrelevant - crime rates are already given per capita.
But yes, I was pleasantly surprised that for example homicide rate is relatively low 2.1/100k/a. Kind of refutes the notion that crime is driven by poverty.

if you care to look into it there is some truth to it (joke is based on 2022).

I was hoping you did and could provide a link.

You don't know history do ya.

History is in the past. At most some Europeans could decide to retire to Ghana or something to take advantage of low CoL. Other than giving fits to racists like MeM who moved to Ghana specifically to avoid whitey, what would be wrong with that? Those Europeans would not be any more "greedy" than black Americans doing the same thing.

 

[Gospel]

Kind of refutes the notion that crime is driven by poverty

Nah bruh. Disparity matters. Poverty in Ghana in comparison to what? In America disparity =/= disparity in Ghana.

Sorry for posting simple crap. I've been drinking.

Edit: Wealth disparity.
Edit 2: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/income-inequality.asp#:~:text=Urban Institute&text=The poorest 10% of Americans,seven times their prior wealth.

Edit 3: Synopsis of link

The poorest 10% of Americans owned 2% of the nation's wealth in 1989, a figure that had fallen to 1% by 2016. Conversely, the wealth of the top 10% of Americans has grown substantially over the same period, from being 60% in 1989 to 77% in 2016, increasing their wealth by seven times. The article further highlights that income inequality is a major concern, as it can lead to a range of social, economic, and political problems.


That is not the same case in Ghana.

Edit 3: This is a derail.

 

[Gospel]

South Africa has the highest wealth disparity in the world.

Edit: By the world I mean earth for you cosmos crack heads.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Bare hands vs a knife, expect to get badly cut.

The police don’t have bare hands. And trained professionals can and have subdued people with a knife.

Taser was tried, failed. It's bare hands.

And just because it's not a 100% failure rate doesn't mean it's a risk they should be expected to take.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why Black Americans are settling in Ghana | DW News - YouTube at 8:00, one of these expats says that there is less gun violence in Ghana and that he has less of a chance of being hassled by the police.

I recall from a few years back in the NYT an account of a US woman who moved to Ghana. She said that while she had to suffer from electricity outages, she did not fear being killed by the cops there. I could not track down that article, but I found another one that makes the same point: Why some African Americans are moving to Africa | Business and Economy | Al Jazeera - 18 Jan 2018

It is estimated that between 3,000 and 5,000 African Americans live in Accra, the Ghanaian capital. They are teachers in small towns in the west or entrepreneurs in the capital and say they that even though living in Ghana is not always easy, they feel free and safe.

One expat says: "You might not have electricity, but you won’t get killed by the police either."

‘This is where I should be’: 1,500 Black Americans make Ghana their new home | The World from PRX - "At least 1,500 Black Americans have moved to Ghana since 2019, when the government declared its "Year of Return" initiative, calling on Africans in the diaspora to return to Africa. As the US continues to confront its history of racism and police brutality against Black people, many are heeding Ghana's call."

On a quick look the government seems ok. The disease situation does not seem good. The healthcare situation seems bad. And while they don't seem to be under Islamist attack right now there are Islamists next door.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Its population is 50% larger than Florida's yet the crime rates are lower. <-- You can't dispute this

We don't really know the crime rate.

Sure you'd have to get vaccinated for yellow fever but that killed as many people in Ghana statistically as gators killed Floridians last year. <-- Obvious joke but (like most jokes) if you care to look into it there is some truth to it (joke is based on 2022).

Yellow fever isn't what concerns me from the health standpoint.

 

[laughing dog]

Bare hands vs a knife, expect to get badly cut.

The police don’t have bare hands. And trained professionals can and have subdued people with a knife.

Taser was tried, failed. It's bare hands.

Nope, they have batons, pepper spray, etc….

And just because it's not a 100% failure rate doesn't mean it's a risk they should be expected to take.

Of course it is a risk that any rationale humane person would expect.

 

[bilby]

Sigh. This BS again. Your chances - black or white - of getting killed by police are very small overall, and infinitesimal if you are not doing stupid shit like pulling a gun and/or attacking a police officer.

Sure. An Australian visitor shouldn't have any qualms about calling the cops about a crime in progress, for example.

 

[Patooka]

Sigh. This BS again. Your chances - black or white - of getting killed by police are very small overall, and infinitesimal if you are not doing stupid shit like pulling a gun and/or attacking a police officer.

Sure. An Australian visitor shouldn't have any qualms about calling the cops about a crime in progress, for example.

I've got an even better one, but it's anecdotal.

Around 2012, I was doing my weekly monthly regular(?) visit to the old folks just to check on them being still being alive. The neighbour "Bill" was outside furiously chain smoking. He just received word his son, who was in his late 20s at the time, was shot by an Arizonan cop. Luckily the cop was a shitty shot and only got hit just below the knee. The cops were executing a warrant on a drug dealer, fucked up the address and panicked when one of the 3 white men in the apartment the accidently broke into said "what the fuck" in a funny accent. I thought "Bill's son" was bullshitting to his dad about what happened because as a kid he "showed signs of problematic behaviour", but I caught up with him and he showed me the scar, the x-rays, the police report and the indemnity form they tried to get him to sign.

I scoured the fucking internet at the time looking for any mention of this incident in local (for Arizona) media outlets and nobody fucking bothered. So either police incompetence is so Monday Tuesday in Arizona it's just not newsworthy anymore, or US cops are shit at there jobs but excellent at self preservation. If this happened in Australia it would be in the news for fucking months.

So I totally understand why Derec believes a)this isn't commonplace in the US and b)everyone who has a similar story is simply lying because he's seen nothing of the sort in the news he follows.

 

[Derec]

Sure. An Australian visitor shouldn't have any qualms about calling the cops about a crime in progress, for example.

I said infinitesimal, not literally zero. Take the people present in the US present at any given time, including visitors. That's the denominator. Take the number of police shootings that do not involve somebody attacking them or pulling a gun on them or similar. That should be <50 or so per year. Divide. You get a very low (frequentist) probability.

By the way, the case you are referencing is a complete miscarriage of justice. The officer - a Somali Muslim - got a very low sentence (1/5 Chauvin's sentence) due to political correctness and "wokeness".

 

[Derec]

Nope, they have batons, pepper spray, etc….

They also have guns. Appropriate weapon when somebody charges at you with a knife.

Of course it is a risk that any rationale humane person would expect.

No, it is not.

 

[Patooka]

Of course it is a risk that any rationale humane person would expect.

No, it is not.

Yes it is. Firefighters, Ambulance drivers on a Friday or Saturday night and SES workers all have some fucking risk of loss of life in their job and not a single fucking one of them need to summarily execute someone to feel safer. What you just said is severely fucked up. As in real wrong fucked up. There should be zero expectation whatsoever of police unilaterally dropping a citizen simply because they got the hebe jeebees.

Fucks sake.

He's a controversial thought; if they are so easily rattled, they shouldn't be cops. And I'm going to pre-empt your obvious response by saying yes - there are always indications before a cop kills someone they should never have been a cop in the first fucking place.

Fucks sake.

 

[laughing dog]

Of course it is a risk that any rationale humane person would expect.

No, it is not.

Thank you for making my point. People subdue knife wielding persons all the time -
Civilans subdue knife wielder in a Wal-Mart
Police subdue knife wielder
Police don't pee in their pants - subdue knife wielder
LA police capture knife wielding man without killing him

I could go on with more examples (google Police subdue knife wielder).

As others have pointed out, no other profession gets to off people just because they are weak-kneed. Yes, there will be instances when lethal force is necessary, but it should not be the knee jerk default option for the police to kill first and then ask questions. If the officers do not have the necessary will, patience and courage to do their job, then they should not be police. It really is that simple.

 

[lpetrich]

[twitter]

Marcos Gonsalez on Twitter: "@briallenhopper Good grief. I saw this same despicable scene the other day in an uptown train stop. All the standing around, doing nothing, yet making so much money." / Twitter

Briallen Hopper on Twitter: "@MarcosSGonsalez It's so maddening! My cousin is a cop (works in the Bronx, lives in Westchester) and my dad tells me he is THRILLED about the piles of unlimited overtime $ he & his friends are now rolling in, thanks to the mayor. Meanwhile CUNY is literally falling apart around me" / Twitter

Bertrand Russell Terrier on Twitter: "@lazarwolfbk @briallenhopper @MarcosSGonsalez The amount NYPD is projected to spend on overtime BEYOND what was budgeted for this year ($820M on a $454M budget) is more than the entire budget of the CUNY community colleges (~$270M) but sure let's strain at gnats" / Twitter

Stuck&Muddy on Twitter: "@briallenhopper @MarcosSGonsalez my brother in law, CHP, takes online classes/training and watches movies on his overtime...
the system is BROKEN!!" / Twitter

 

[Derec]

[random twits on twitter claiming cops be lazy]

And what exactly do these unsubstantiated anecdotes by randos on Twitter prove?

 

[Derec]

Thank you for making my point. People subdue knife wielding persons all the time -

That does not mean it is possible to do so in all cases without incurring undue risk.
Note that in the case we are discussing here, the perp was initially subdued, but then she broke free and directly charged the officer with a knife.

, but it should not be the knee jerk default option for the police to kill first and then ask questions.

It is not default though. It's not like they shot her as soon as they encountered her.

If the officers do not have the necessary will, patience and courage to do their job, then they should not be police. It really is that simple.

Police officers understand that policing comes with a level of risk. They are not expected to incur unreasonable levels of risk just to protect perps attacking them. And neither should they be.

 

[Derec]

Yes it is. Firefighters, Ambulance drivers on a Friday or Saturday night and SES workers all have some fucking risk of loss of life in their job and not a single fucking one of them need to summarily execute someone to feel safer.

If you think shooting somebody charging at you with a knife is "summarily executing" them, then you need to review what English words mean.
Also, firefighters etc. have the right to self-defense as well, should they be attacked.

What you just said is severely fucked up. As in real wrong fucked up. There should be zero expectation whatsoever of police unilaterally dropping a citizen simply because they got the hebe jeebees.

What is to you sufficient reason for police to use deadly force?

He's a controversial thought; if they are so easily rattled, they shouldn't be cops. And I'm going to pre-empt your obvious response by saying yes - there are always indications before a cop kills someone they should never have been a cop in the first fucking place.

In some cases that is true. In this case I do not see police having done anything wrong here.

 

[Derec]

Nah bruh. Disparity matters. Poverty in Ghana in comparison to what?

Disparity is different than poverty. One can understand and perhaps even excuse certain crimes stemming from abject poverty - Jean Valjean stealing a loaf of bread for example. But engaging in burglaries or robberies because you are mad and/or envious that somebody else has more than you do is pure avarice and not excusable at all. [Three deadly sins in one sentence - not bad]

In America disparity =/= disparity in Ghana.

Wealth disparity is somewhat greater in Ghana than in US, as measured by the Gini index. Of course, these expats probably do not mind as they are almost certainly bound to find themselves in a much higher income and wealth quintile after moving to Ghana.

Sorry for posting simple crap. I've been drinking.

Here's to feeling good all the time!

The poorest 10% of Americans owned 2% of the nation's wealth in 1989, a figure that had fallen to 1% by 2016. Conversely, the wealth of the top 10% of Americans has grown substantially over the same period, from being 60% in 1989 to 77% in 2016, increasing their wealth by seven times. The article further highlights that income inequality is a major concern, as it can lead to a range of social, economic, and political problems.

These x% of people own y% of wealth are misleading, as many people have a negative net worth, and often just temporarily. For example, most college graduates will do very well for themselves, but starting out they are likely to be upside down on their net worth due to student debt.

That is not the same case in Ghana.

In fact, it is worse (somewhat higher Gini). However, the expats from US are likely to be close to the top of wealth distribution given that they are moving from a wealthy country into a much poorer one.

Edit 3: This is a derail.

It kinda is. The Ghana derail started with some of the expats citing the negligible risk of getting killed by police (when not attacking them etc.) as the reason for their move. I suspect the real reason is financial - their savings can go much further in Ghana where the per capita GDP and the cost of living are low.

 

[Derec]

Policing isn't inherently safe, and trying to avoid all personal risk as a police officer means not doing your job properly, just as it would for a firefighter or a soldier.

Avoiding all personal risk would be dereliction of duty. Incurring unreasonable levels of risks is also dereliction of duty.
Police are not supposed to put themselves, their comrades or members of the public in undue danger by for example allowing a perp to stab someone. Be it a cop of an innocent bystander (as in the case of Ma'Khia Bryant)

 

[Derec]

No. But if I had two burly friends backing me up against a 110lb female, I’d fancy my chances or I’d run.

She lost 10 lbs somehow? You said 120lbs before. No matter. 110lbs should have enough upper body strength to swing a knife and do some real damage. Turning to run away just exposes your back to getting stabbed. Not smart.

But in the video it doesn’t look like she was actually trying to stab anyone.

It certainly looks that way to me. She charged the cop with the body cam directly.

Be honest: would you think this was a bad shoot if the perp was a male with similar build and not a (rather attractive) woman? I think you are just being overly chivalrous.