Police Misconduct Catch All Thread

[lpetrich]

...and yet it's almost unheard of outside the USA.

You mean, "It's virtually never reported outside the USA."
Correct?

Evidence-free assertion.

You mean Bilby, right?
I didn't make any assertion.
Tom

This is your assertion:

You mean, "It's virtually never reported outside the USA."

 

[TomC]

This is your assertion:

"You mean, "It's virtually never reported outside the USA."

Somehow, you clipped off the

Correct?

You clipped off the question mark. The part where I asked what the poster meant.

Not impressive.
Tom

ETA ~Looks more like the old classic "quote mining" to me.~

 

[bilby]

You mean, "It's virtually never reported outside the USA."
Correct?

No.

Not only is that not correct, but it is difficult to imagine any misinterpretation of my actual position that would be more misleading or disingenuous than that.

What the fuck is wrong with you that would make you attempt to twist my words into something so wildly disconnected to my stated position?

 

[ZiprHead]

I cannot imagine police shootings that are quite rare in many countries not being reported by the media.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Committing suicide by provoking cops to shoot them? That's a good reason for cops to avoid using firearms as much as possible, and to use nonlethal and low-lethality weapons as much as possible.

Look at the article I posted the other way around. Most cases of suicide by cop involve the guy having a gun. Don't oblige their desires and the cop is liable to get shot.

 

[laughing dog]

Committing suicide by provoking cops to shoot them? That's a good reason for cops to avoid using firearms as much as possible, and to use nonlethal and low-lethality weapons as much as possible.

Look at the article I posted the other way around. Most cases of suicide by cop involve the guy having a gun. Don't oblige their desires and the cop is liable to get shot.

Is this another belief masquerading as fact or do you evidence to support your view?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Committing suicide by provoking cops to shoot them? That's a good reason for cops to avoid using firearms as much as possible, and to use nonlethal and low-lethality weapons as much as possible.

Look at the article I posted the other way around. Most cases of suicide by cop involve the guy having a gun. Don't oblige their desires and the cop is liable to get shot.

Is this another belief masquerading as fact or do you evidence to support your view?

It's called paying attention rather than using faith-based positions. Suicides do sometimes shoot the cops.

 

[laughing dog]

Committing suicide by provoking cops to shoot them? That's a good reason for cops to avoid using firearms as much as possible, and to use nonlethal and low-lethality weapons as much as possible.

Look at the article I posted the other way around. Most cases of suicide by cop involve the guy having a gun. Don't oblige their desires and the cop is liable to get shot.

Is this another belief masquerading as fact or do you evidence to support your view?

It's called paying attention rather than using faith-based positions. Suicides do sometimes shoot the cops.

The irony of your evidence free response is overwhelming.

 

[repoman]

This police officer needs to fired for misconduct and wasting everyone's time for this trial

 

[lpetrich]

Let's talk about a european cop asking about black Americans.... - YouTube by Beau of the Fifth Column

The web version, at least, has an auto-generated transcript.

So today we are going to talk about a question that came in from a cop in Europe basically asking how to deal with black Americans in in a good way. I will provide my suggestions, but if you are a black American, down in the comments, put what you would like to hear that would set you at ease if you were in this situation. The officer said that they would share the information with their colleagues.

Then describing an incident where a vacationing black couple was arguing about who left the insulin at home. A cop went up to them, and they seemed very scared. This made it difficult for the cop to tell what was going on.

In the comments, many people had similar anecdotes. A selection:

As a Black American who lived in Europe for a few years, I agree with this approach. If law enforcement officers in the USA don’t want to feel targeted, they can just do better.


I am an African American in Georgia and for years we have taught our youth, especially males to hold up both hands, verbally say that I am complying and not to look or act threatening in ANY way. We have practiced this in our churches, in our homes and community, especially these last 10 or more years.


Even as a white male from Europe, American cops scare me. Or at least the border guards that I have interacted with. They seem so stressed and look like they are geared up for war.

(someone responded with discussing the Norco bank robbers of 1980, and someone else responded)

Hell, even as a white male from Tennessee, American cops scare me. I just moved back after 12 years in Abu Dhabi, and I felt much safter there, because I was safe from the police.


I’m a very white woman, but it took me years to be relaxed seeing groups of police strolling the streets in Australia.


"Your not in trouble. How can we help?" from law enforcement, to an American, especially a Black American, would just be stunning. And that's horrible.


This needs to be shown in every police precinct in America. American cops have a fairly earned bad, bad reputation.


As a black american living abroad, I have to say I'm still a little traumatized any time I see an officer. My colleagues and I relocated for work to NZ and once, one of our team members got stop by the cops, she called us just so she had someone on the phone line in case something popped off. She and her husband are from TX originally, so she's always on alert for gun action. She was even more freaked cause he was driving. So you can already imagine the conversation going on when he got pulled over. Ultimately, the officer had stopped her to let her know her light was out and asked if she needed help. I can't tell you how weird but amazing it was to know the cop was genuinely interested in helping. So what can I say works, just treat us like humans. Be kind. We respond positively well to kindness.

Beau as a Black American I take no issue with provided suggestions to European police. Be direct, and most of all yes, let Black Americans know you're NOT like American cops. Implicit bias is a helluva thing.


As a black person (and a woman at that) if you tell me straight forward “I’m not here to hurt you” that will help me not to have a panic attack. I have never been in legal trouble in my life but the presents of police officers takes years off of my life. Once my white friend got us into a car accident in the country side and when the police came they kept trying to claim I was driving or I was dangerous (I’m a tiny woman mind you) Lucky the young man who found and rescued us called his dad. I had never in my life been so happy to see a white man in my life. I ran to him and hid behind him and the police stopped trying to harass me after he pointedly asked them what the hell they thought they were doing scaring me like that. Thank god for kind white folk that understand the signs


I'm an American who isn't even black, and have definitely learned to act this way around the cops. Once you have contact with a police officer, the best case scenario at that point is just to survive.


I'm a melanin poor skinned male and I can recall several scenarios in my college days where the officers completely ignored me at a "rowdy party" and went straight for my melanin rich peers. It was blatant racism and it was a complete wake up to the realities of the inherent racism in our justice system. To this day, I have very little trust in the law enforcement community and I was only a bystander. I can only imagine what it's like for those who are directly impacted.


I'm an African American woman. When I see a cop, I get that same instant gut feeling that I get when I see a confederate flag. It's instant, I'm on high alert and automatically I feel on edge. So, this is a difficult question to answer. I really like your second suggestion - using a buffer. I think not having direct interaction with a cop would make me feel more comfortable because as I said the cop's mere presence already has me alarmed.

More broadly,

People in foreign countries must look at American politics, Healthcare, and policing with just absolute disdain
(then)

Honestly, its a mixture of disdain and pity.

We hate looking over at America and seeing the school shootings, medical bankruptcy, hate filled politics, police brutality. And we pity the Americans that have to put up with it all. They deserve better. Europe isn't perfect by any means, but it seems like America isn't even trying to make things better for their own citizens which is kinda astounding to me.


And disgust. I'm Swedish, and when the justice system — particularly the prison bit — comes up, there's often arguments about what we here are doing wrong, but if someone brings up the US system, the reaction is near universal disgust.


It's kind of like watching a rich upper-middle class family where the parents work part time and so have all the time and resources needed to give their kids a good upbringing.

But instead they're abusive towards their kids, they're too cheap to provide good healthcare (and sometimes even food) and they refuse to pay for the kids' university so the kids end up in debt.

We feel really sorry for you.


Many Americans don’t realize how different life is in other developed countries.

 

[lpetrich]

Some more comments.

As a German, I think more Americans should visit Europe.
(then)

Germany admits that the Third Reich was wrong, and teaches the Holocaust as Let's Never Do That Again.

Half of the USA refuses to admit the Confederacy was wrong, and teaches the Civil War as "The South will rise again".

I have visited Munich, briefly, the large park with the Japanese garden is wonderful, and the beer was good too!


As a Dutch guy, I think American police officers should spend a month each on ride alongs with European police officers to learn about consent based policing. I also think American correctional officers need to do internships at European correctional facilities.
It might be a good eye opener for a lot of them.


@0cypher0 There was a TV show, I think from Finland, where they had a US Cop visit the Nordic countries. It was quite interesting to see. One thing that stuck out to me was the Cop asking a Swedish trainee why she joined the police force, and her reply was "I always liked people and wanted to work with people."
I'm German but live in Norway since quite a while, I've never been to the US sadly enough, only Canada for some short visits. Even though I'm a white guy I'm getting anxious at the thought to interact with a US Cop, let's say at a vacation. Over here I'm feeling at ease when I see Cops around.

There is a risk of self-selection in what these commenters describe, but cops in most other developed countries don't shoot nearly as many people as US cops. So these anecdotes fit in with European cops being much less trigger-happy.

Thank GOD for you spreading the word. As a black American female my anxiety shoots thru the roof when I encounter law enforcement anywhere (on the road, shopping centers, etc) unless my intuition tells me otherwise which is very rare. You are correct they typically give off an air of domination which is frigging scary. Always praying for the safety of my children when it come to this topic. Soooo appreciate you for this!! ❤❤ Much gratitude


While I'm white I'm in Utah, and used to have long hair. My experience with cops is nowhere near what Black Americans deal with, but just with long hair I was seen as trouble. What I learned is to deal with the cop the way one would with a large nervous or edgy dog they don't know; Don't run, no wide arm gestures, no sudden movements, and don't stare [threat/challenge signal in mammals]. I also don't square my shoulders with cops, and stand ever so slightly at an angle so that it's not easily mistaken for a fight pose. My hands are always in plain view, and if I reach for my ID when instructed I announce that I am doing so.


As a black man that have interactions with police in Germany, Russia, Panama Central America, and other countries, nothing but respect.
I’ve only experienced racism from police here in my own country. The key to combating racism from cops is to fully understand your rights as a citizen.


As a white european woman who once had to deal with two US cops I can tell you the difference between how cops over here and in the US approach, treat and talk to people is like night and day.


It's insane how thoughtful and intentional European cops are about diffusing situations instead of escalating them as many American police do. They didn't need "more training" or to take a diversity class, they just want to be better at their job and serve the entire public.


As a former LEO who happens to be Black, I can assure you this isn't easy to comment on. So many fellow officers have been stopped and frisked by cops in this country just because they can make no sense. My best friend a retired Chief, has to drive around with his jacket hanging in his back side window just in case he's stopped for some reason or another.

At the annual IACP (International Chief of Police) conference we have cops from across the globe and when you speak with them, let's say from France, Germany and even some countries in Africa, they all act like public servants instead of "containment enforcement officers" as some do in this country. This subject has a 1000 different variables Beau, I'm just glad you tackled it head on. There are some great consulting firms that are working extra hard to tackle, less lethal methods, situational awareness, conflict resolution, and so much more. It's an uphill battle, honestly the days of "Officer Friendly" are over. And that leads to so much discourse in our communities. Beau, I'm just glad you tackled this head on. We can do better if we just have empathy for one another. Let's start with that.


My family is from Denmark. Cops, no disrespect, have a very easy job there. Why? Strong safety nets, common social values widely supported, generally happy population. What drives cops in America is systemic oppression and poverty, which creates the social conditions for othering a group suffering that. Struggling people in Denmark aren't millionaires but, they are, in the main, well supported by the state.


Having spent time in Europe, the described reaction of this official is not surprising. They are better educated and trained. Your suggestion to say, "We're not American cops", is spot on!

 

[Patooka]

Some of the usual suspects around here are going to shit an aneurysm.

Minneapolis police face federal oversight for excessive force, discrimination

The move comes after an investigation into the police killing of George Floyd.

www.reuters.com

"We found that the Minneapolis Police Department routinely uses excessive force, often when no force is necessary, including unjust deadly force and unreasonable use of Tasers," Garland said at a press conference at the city's federal courthouse. The report found that officers frequently violated residents' constitutional rights. They used potentially deadly neck restraints, since banned by the city, and shot at people in situations where there was no immediate threat.

Other findings included officers frequently failing to intervene when they saw colleagues using excessive force, discriminating against people with behavioral health disabilities and unconstitutionally retaliating against protesters and journalists.

Full report found here, but basically what BLM protesters were protesting about in 2020 actually did happen. Sorry, Derec.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Some of the usual suspects around here are going to shit an aneurysm.

Minneapolis police face federal oversight for excessive force, discrimination

The move comes after an investigation into the police killing of George Floyd.

www.reuters.com

"We found that the Minneapolis Police Department routinely uses excessive force, often when no force is necessary, including unjust deadly force and unreasonable use of Tasers," Garland said at a press conference at the city's federal courthouse. The report found that officers frequently violated residents' constitutional rights. They used potentially deadly neck restraints, since banned by the city, and shot at people in situations where there was no immediate threat.

Other findings included officers frequently failing to intervene when they saw colleagues using excessive force, discriminating against people with behavioral health disabilities and unconstitutionally retaliating against protesters and journalists.

Full report found here, but basically what BLM protesters were protesting about in 2020 actually did happen. Sorry, Derec.

The problem with BLM is that while they did protest real issues they had a very high false positive rate--protesting anything that wasn't an absolutely open and shut legitimate case.

 

[Patooka]

The problem with BLM is that while they did protest real issues they had a very high false positive rate--protesting anything that wasn't an absolutely open and shut legitimate case.

The real problem is that those "open and shut cases" as you describe them occurred with greater frequency than anyone was willing to admit. Or in your case still unwilling to admit. Those false positives you're so worried about would never had happened if the general public trusted law enforcement. Don't worry - it's a real fucking mystery to me as well why people don't trust US law enforcement as a rule.

 

[Derec]

Some of the usual suspects around here are going to shit an aneurysm.

Hardly surprising that the extremely pro-#BLM DOJ under Garland came to this conclusion. Remember, they gave sweetheart deals to #BLM domestic terrorists like the NYC arsonist lawyers (now disbarred). They even gave a sweetheart deal to an #BLM arsonist who killed a man in Minneapolis during the #BLM riots - and Garland's prosecutor explicitly cited the killer arsonists' political beliefs as the reason he was seeking leniency. But most #BLMers were never prosecuted at all. For example, people who actually occupied territory in cities like Seattle, Portland, Minneapolis or Atlanta never were prosecuted for that.

Full report found here, but basically what BLM protesters were protesting about in 2020 actually did happen. Sorry, Derec.

Again, not surprising given Garland's political bias. Thank McTurtle that we were spared this fake moderate being a SCOTUS justice!

There is no justification for the reign of violence that #BLM unleashed on America in Summer of 2020. None whatsoever. They wantonly destroyed property, they made cities regress in their livability by decades, and they even killed people (including an 8 year old girl in Atlanta). And yet, most of them got away with their crimes. A sickening chapter in American history.

 

[Derec]

The real problem is that those "open and shut cases" as you describe them occurred with greater frequency than anyone was willing to admit.

No, there are few and far between. Most police shootings are "open and shut" for being justified. And yet, #BLM is protesting many of those as well. Like the case in Portland where a Rolling 60 Crip shot two people moments before police shot him. And yet #BLM protested.

 

[CosmicJellyfish]

They wantonly destroyed property

All civil unrest results in property damage. If you don't want property damage, address the conditions that give rise to the unrest.

The Black Civil Rights movement of the '60s resulted in property damage. No doubt you'd have opposed that movement too.

As long as black people continue to be killed by police at a much higher rate than white people, expect more civil unrest in the future.

they even killed people.

"they"
You're tarring the biggest civil rights movement in US history with the actions of a few violent individuals.

A sickening chapter in American history

If you think that's bad, wait until you find out what this country has been doing to black people for four centuries.

chattel slavery
the violent overthrow of Reconstruction
racist paramilitary organizations like the KKK
Black Codes
Jim Crow
lynching
racist massacres like 1921 Tulsa and numerous others
poll taxes
voter intimidation
racial segregation
racial bias in welfare/entitlements/benefits
redlining
racist exclusionary zoning
racial bias in education
racist policing
racist sentencing
racist banking
racist drug laws
racial bias in hiring
racial bias in unions
racial bias in housing markets
racial gerrymandering
and so on

 

[Gospel]

The real problem is that those "open and shut cases" as you describe them occurred with greater frequency than anyone was willing to admit.

No, there are few and far between. Most police shootings are "open and shut" for being justified. And yet, #BLM is protesting many of those as well. Like the case in Portland where a Rolling 60 Crip shot two people moments before police shot him. And yet #BLM protested.

The protesters were not trying to keep a criminal on the streets. They were protesting because they believed that the man was shot without being given a chance to surrender. Whether or not they were right about that is a matter of opinion, but it is important to acknowledge their REAL (not land of make-believe) reasons for protesting, even if you disagree with them.

 

[Derec]

The protesters were not trying to keep a criminal on the streets.

How do you know that? After all, many #BLMers and Antifas are also police/prison abolitionists and in fact do want to keep criminals on the streets.

They were protesting because they believed that the man was shot without being given a chance to surrender.

He was armed with a firearm and he just shot two people. What were the police supposed to do?
By the way, this is a collection of protest signs I found especially ridiculous.

From "fuck the police" and professing love for a violent criminal whom they've never met and who'd as soon rob and shoot them as look at them, to the epic fail of "resist anceis happen ingnow".

Whether or not they were right about that is a matter of opinion, but it is important to acknowledge their REAL (not land of make-believe) reasons for protesting, even if you disagree with them.

Their reasons for protesting are simple: Pat-Pat (whom they proclaim to "love") was black and he was killed by police. That alone is enough in their eyes.
See this ridiculous article. Nowhere does it say anything about that he should have been given more of a chance to surrender. No, they object to their favorite Crip being shot by police no matter what! In addition to being racist af.

'I'm Tired of Walking in Their White Spaces'

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The real problem is that those "open and shut cases" as you describe them occurred with greater frequency than anyone was willing to admit.

No, there are few and far between. Most police shootings are "open and shut" for being justified. And yet, #BLM is protesting many of those as well. Like the case in Portland where a Rolling 60 Crip shot two people moments before police shot him. And yet #BLM protested.

The protesters were not trying to keep a criminal on the streets. They were protesting because they believed that the man was shot without being given a chance to surrender. Whether or not they were right about that is a matter of opinion, but it is important to acknowledge their REAL (not land of make-believe) reasons for protesting, even if you disagree with them.

Why should there be any expectation that there's always a chance to surrender?

2 Portland Officers Cleared In Fatal Shooting Of Patrick Kimmons

A Multnomah County grand jury has cleared two Portland Police officers who shot and killed Patrick Kimmons, a 27-year-old black man, on Sept. 30.

www.opb.org

The county medical examiner found that Kimmons was shot nine times. Bullets struck him in the buttocks, legs, groin and chest. The report indicates that some shots hit him from behind, while others struck Kimmons from the front or side.

In other words, he was turning as he was hit.

Two parking-lot security camera videos released Wednesday show a man running away from the fight and toward two officers before darting between two cars; it's not clear from the videos whether Kimmons pointed his gun at Britt and Livingston or what position he was in when police fired.

And he was running towards the officers with a gun in his hand.

Look at it from their point of view. This guy had just shot two people and now was running towards them with a gun in his hand. If he decides to shoot the cops aren't capable of preventing it.

Means: He's holding a gun.
Motive: He's just been seen committing a serious felony, he's going away for a long time.
Opportunity: The cops are in range.

This isn't Hollywood, the cops aren't going to wait and see if he takes hostile action or surrenders. Yeah, he has little chance of getting away with it but plenty of criminals take an I'm-not-going-back attitude and shoot at cops in basically hail mary moves.