• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Breakdown In Civil Order

\Very few people understand why it is actually in their best interests to pay taxes so that people "WhO DonT WaNt tO WoRk"* can "JuSt sIt ARouNd aNd ShOot Up tHe MarIjuAnAs"** all day.
The problem is that if you pay people who do not want (as opposed to not being able to work) to work all their living expenses, people catch on, and then too few people want to work. That's one of the things that doomed Actually Existing Socialist systems.
Even people not being able to find work in the private sector can be put to work. Homeless can work in homeless shelters for example. Or pick up garbage from highways.
 
Los Angeles mayor Blass has her work cut out;
I do not think she has any intention to do any work to make her city any better place to live in.
Doing that would offend her ideological sensibilities. Same with the LA DA.
Public transport in Los Angeles is a nightmare. The “homeless” are constantly on the trains taking drugs, using the carriage as a toilet and harassing passengers.
It's a sad state of affairs. It's unwoke to do anything against the homeless. It is apparently considered their civil right to defecate anywhere, harass passengers etc. In NYC too. Jordan Neely is only referred to as "Michael Jackson impersonator" in liberal media. The fact that he had >40 arrests (he should have been in Riker's, not on the subway!) including several assaults is conveniently omitted from the coverage.
 
And what are you claiming, exactly? That homeless people should be denied to defend themselves in court when a crime has been alleged?
That homeless people, just like anybody else, do not have the right to chase somebody down and beat them to a pulp. That goes well beyond what is considered legitimate self-defense. And you would probably see it that way too if it was some middle class white guy who did that.
The office investigated and concluded that Carmignani had incited the incident,
That does not mean it's "self defense" to chase him down and beat him to a pulp.

not the DA, who has nothing to do with this
The DA has nothing to do with prosecution in their bailiwick?

"I didn't go out there to fight anyone. I'm trying to get them down the road, go to the park," said Carmignani. "It's three-on-one."
The homeless in places like SF are very aggressive and brazen. What about regular taxpaying citizens who just want to be able to enjoy their property? I guess in SF the bums take precedence.

The prosecutors dropped the case because the person they would be effectively put in the awkward position of prosecuting had a solid case for self-defense
Perhaps initially, although I do think the victim had a right to tell him to go away.
The bum certainly does not have the right to chase somebody down and beat them to a pulp. That is revenge, not self defense.
and they didn't want to risk it.
There is a video. It should be pretty cut and dried in front of any unbiased jury.
In my opinion, people who violently assault homeless people without cause are not worth feeling bad for if the chickens come home to roost. What did he think was going to happen, the city was going to cheer him on for playing Batman and beating on the homeless? These vigilante attacks on the homeless are becoming more and more common in the City, and they are disgusting.
What do you expect when the City is not doing anything against the homeless problem? Instead, they keep enabling them even when they defecate in the streets, harass taxpayers or as in this case beat them up.

I think I can agree with that. But think about this would-be court case from the prosecution's point of view. Because the alleged victim initially lied about the circumstances, almost anything he says is going to be expanding his own liability for a future counter claim.
There is a video. It should be a pretty easy case to win based on merits. The problem is that they did not want to prosecute a homeless guy due to ideological pro-homeless stance of the political establishment.
And no judge or jury is going to be especially sympathetic to a guy who was (arguably) committing a hate crime
A "hate crime"? Is being a bum a protected class in California?
at the time of his assault, and since the accused is a presumably penniless homeless guy, latitude for a settlement or deal of any kind seems slim. Would you want to take the case?
I would.
 
This has become a big issue, and I've been neglectful of it. :( The  Killing of Jordan Neely -- I'll quote that article's first three paragraphs, because they seem like a good summary of the incident.
On May 1, 2023, around 2:30 p.m., Jordan Neely, a homeless 30-year-old black man, was killed by Daniel Penny, a 24-year-old white man, who placed him in a chokehold while they were riding the F train in Manhattan on the New York City Subway.[2][3][4] At least two others restrained Neely's limbs. Freelance journalist and witness Juan Alberto Vázquez recorded video of the incident.

According to police, witnesses said Neely was acting in a "hostile and erratic" manner, yelling that he was hungry and thirsty,[4] that he would hurt anyone on the train, that he did not mind "going to jail or getting life in prison" and was "ready to die."[5] Vázquez said that Neely did not physically attack anyone,[6] but other witnesses reported him throwing trash at passengers.[7] Penny approached Neely from behind, placing him in a chokehold.[8] According to Vázquez the chokehold lasted for 15 minutes, three minutes of which he recorded on video.[9][10][11] An onlooker alerted Penny that Neely had defecated,[12] a warning sign he was dying; the onlooker then said "You're gonna kill him."[13] He was taken to Lenox Hill Hospital, where he was pronounced dead; according to some sources, he died on the subway car's floor.[14]

Police questioned Penny after the incident but released him without charges a few hours later.[15] Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg began an investigation.[16] On May 3, the medical examiner's office determined the manner of death to be homicide,[17] stating that Neely died from "compression of neck (chokehold)".[1] On May 5, it was reported a grand jury would meet to determine if charges should be pressed against Penny.[18] On May 11, it was announced that Penny would be charged with second-degree manslaughter.[19] If convicted, Penny would face up to 15 years in prison.[20]
 
How The Media Failed Jordan Neely | HuffPost Latest News
After Daniel Penny killed Jordan Neely with a chokehold on May 1, several local media outlets reported that Neely had thrown trash at subway passengers, aggressively threatened them and got into an argument with Penny before Penny tackled him to the ground.

But within a few days, as reporting relied less on anonymous law enforcement sources, journalists began poking holes in each of these details, and outright contradicted some of them.

By that time, though, the two men involved in the incident had been painted with broad brushes. Penny, a 24-year-old white man, was written not as someone who’d used a deadly martial arts position for several minutes straight, but rather as a Marine veteran looking for work as a bartender in New York. Neely, on the other hand, was a Black, homeless, mentally ill former Michael Jackson impersonator ― an “unhinged” “vagrant,” as the New York Post described him ― whose killing recalled an era “when residents felt besieged by crime,” as The Associated Press put it.
That chokehold ought to have been *very* suspicious -- DP clearly knew what he was doing.
Even after the city’s medical examiner found that Neely, 30, died of a fatal chokehold, some outlets used passive, soft language and invited debate. ...

For several days, media reports withheld Penny’s name while printing Neely’s police record.

That record included dozens of arrests, some for assault and many for lesser charges like fare evasion. And police sources appeared to immediately leak Neely’s rap sheet to news outlets after his death, despite Neely having just been killed in public.
The NYPD is known to leak criminal records of defendants, but JN is the first homicide victim whose criminal record they leaked.
 
According to Juan Alberto Vázquez, a freelance journalist who took the only published video of Penny putting Neely in a chokehold, Neely was “aggressive” but not specifically threatening or getting physical with anyone on the train.

...
“He started yelling that he didn’t have food, that he didn’t have water. From what I understood, he was yelling that he was tired, that he didn’t care about going to jail.” Then Vázquez went further, emphasizing the relative lack of risk Neely posed at the moment Penny attacked him: “You ask how many people out of 100 would have dared to do something like that, and I think that 98 will say: ‘No, I would wait to see one more sign that indicates aggression.’”

But Neely’s purported words grew more aggressive with the use of anonymous police sources. The New York Post, the Daily News, ABC7 and Fox News, all citing law enforcement, said Neely had threatened subway riders.
He seemed like so many other deranged people -- scary, but for the most part, not physically dangerous.
Now, the case is in prosecutors’ hands. The Manhattan district attorney’s office is fielding criticism from all sides ― on the right, for bringing a case at all against a supposed “Good Samaritan” acting in self-defense, and from Neely’s family, for not pursuing a murder charge.
 
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "Watching media ..." / Twitter
Watching media give the Brock Turner treatment for the killing of a homeless man has been nauseating.

A person having a record does not excuse killing them. Neither does being poor, sick, or homeless.

Virtually every one of us is closer to being in Neely’s shoes than we think.

Our country criminalizes poverty and homelessness while making it impossible to afford rent on a minimum wage job. Our system is built for arresting the poor.

When the wealthy break the law, they rarely get records. They can afford to be treated favorably. Most of us cannot.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "Jordan Neely was murdered. ..." / Twitter
Jordan Neely was murdered.

But bc Jordan was houseless and crying for food in a time when the city is raising rents and stripping services to militarize itself while many in power demonize the poor, the murderer gets protected w/ passive headlines + no charges.

It’s disgusting.

It is appalling how so many take advantage of headlines re: crime for an obsolete “tough on crime” political, media, & budgetary gain, but when a public murder happens that reinforces existing power structures, those same forces rush to exonerate&look the other way. We shouldn’t.
 
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "A safer city is one with fewer people suffering from homelessness - not because they’ve been displaced, but because they have been housed. (link)" / Twitter
noting
AOC on Jordan Neely’s Killing and Who Gets to Be Safe in NYC
Last Monday, the world watched disturbing footage of Daniel Penny choking Jordan Neely to death on the New York City subway. But after Penny was questioned by police and let go without any charges, the media described the killing with passive headlines (“Man Dies on Subway After Another Rider Places Him in Chokehold,” said the New York Times), and many elected officials failed to forcefully condemn the death. (“There are consequences for behavior,” said Governor Kathy Hochul). Against that backdrop, a decisive voice stood out: “Jordan Neely was murdered,” tweeted Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

Not everyone agreed. New York Mayor Eric Adams called her words irresponsible given the ongoing investigation into Neely’s death. “To really interfere with that is not the right thing to do,” he told CNN. “I’m going to be responsible and allow them to do their job and allow them to determine exactly what happened here.” But for Ocasio-Cortez, the situation is not complicated: She says a 30-year-old was killed for the crime of being hungry and unhoused, in a city where he couldn’t access basic support. While Penny put Neely in a deadly chokehold, she thinks Adams’s policies around crime and homelessness helped snuff out his life. “Jordan Neely was killed by public policy,” she told the Cut. “He was killed by the demonizing of the poor by many of our leaders.”
Then an interview with her.
 
Her interviewer: why does the subway-train location seem to resonate with so many people?
The subway is the ultimate public space. I’ve spent countless hours on the subway. I still take it to this day. It’s a mirror to our society. When our policies drive up homelessness, you will see more homeless people on the subway. When our policies create an unsafe environment, we’re bound to feel less safe on the subway. I myself have felt unsafe on the subway. I have left train cars. I have had men follow me around. But never, ever, ever have I felt a desire to harm that person. Nor have I seen anyone else try to. If something seems especially escalatory, then yeah, you might feel on edge. I think most people avoid eye contact, look down between their shoes, and wait for the moment to pass. Most of the time, it does. If you feel uncomfortable, move. That usually solves the problem.
Then,
It’s hard not to wonder if Neely would still be alive had someone offered him a bottle of water.

De-escalation is a skill set. ...
Was it reckless for her to call the killing of JN a murder?
I would like everyone to pretend that was their son. I would like anyone to look at that video, see their son, and see if they would say the same thing.
Then on why politicians have been reluctant to call the act a murder.
I think in order to stand up for Jordan Neely, we’d have to admit that public decisions made by leaders have been failing. You have the victim himself talking about how it would be easier to be incarcerated than to access support in the city. That is the Adams administration’s policy. They are out here asking every single City Council member to strip funding for homelessness services, mental health, schools, pools, parks, and public spaces and to further militarize a police department that just got a $5 billion contract raise. Jordan Neely was killed by public policy. He was killed by the demonizing of the poor by many of our leaders. He was killed by the same reluctance for people to see him as human that leaders are exhibiting right now, even in his death.
In effect, to defund everything but the police.
 
Then,
The last sentence of Adams’ statement was about this desire to support mental-health and housing resources. This administration is doing exactly the opposite of that. When are we going to stop pretending? We need to make these investments and not as a gesture, not as a talking point. A safer city is one with fewer homeless people, not because they’ve been displaced but because they have been housed.
Some people might say that a safer city is one with more homeless people killed.

"There is nothing, nothing, nothing that can justify killing a person, especially if they are unarmed and not a physical threat to anyone." and "All of these responses are acting as though Neely was the aggressor here, when he was the one who was murdered."

"All of this has to do with race and class. If the city just wants this to be a playground for the rich, that is the most dangerous outcome for all of us." -- seems like gentrification taken to its ultimate extreme.

Jordan Neely was killed because he couldn’t access mental-health support for insurance reasons. He didn’t have a home. His mother was killed herself in an incident of domestic violence. He was killed by our continued collective failure to invest our public resources to public ends.
Something that won't be helped by defunding everything but the police.
Officials are making decisions around public safety based on how the New York Post might make someone feel, as opposed to the facts about what actually works. We have an obligation to implement evidence-based policy that actually keeps us safe. These decisions should not be a result of a political football or because we’re scared of a headline.
Finally,
In a statement, Neely’s family said, “Mayor Eric Adams please give us a call. The family wants you to know that Jordan matters.” Have you been in touch with them?

Our team has been in touch through their legal representation. I will be speaking with them shortly.
 
The NYPD Is Greeting Vigils for Jordan Neely With Brute Force - Hell Gate - "And arresting journalists and activists documenting the crackdown."

Some protesters even climbed down into a subway-train track at a station, I must note.


Right-wingers made a hero out of Dan Penny.
GOP casts accused Jordan Neely killer as 'Good Samaritan' to hammer Dems on crime - POLITICO
DeSantis And Gaetz Applaud ‘Hero’ Daniel Penny—Charged With Manslaughter For Killing Jordan Neely - Forbes

Marjorie Taylor Greene 🇺🇸 on Twitter: "This is what a hero looks like.
The world needs more men like Daniel Penny. (pic link)" / Twitter


Rep. Matt Gaetz on Twitter: "‘Subway Superman’ Daniel Penny is a HERO.
Today, I will personally be donating to his legal defense fund on GiveSendGo. (vid link)" / Twitter


Ron DeSantis on Twitter: "We must defeat the Soros-Funded DAs, stop the Left's pro-criminal agenda, and take back the streets for law abiding citizens. We stand with Good Samaritans like Daniel Penny. Let’s show this Marine... America’s got his back. (pic link)" / Twitter

I've also found

Ron DeSantis on Twitter: "The weaponization …" / Twitter
The weaponization of the legal system to advance a political agenda turns the rule of law on its head.

It is un-American.

The Soros-backed Manhattan District Attorney has consistently bent the law to downgrade felonies and to excuse criminal misconduct. Yet, now he is stretching the law to target a political opponent.

Florida will not assist in an extradition request given the questionable circumstances at issue with this Soros-backed Manhattan prosecutor and his political agenda.
 
I marvel at those who take the side of a murderous vigilante -- people who brag about how law-and-order they are and how tough on crime they are.

Is that something that they want to encourage?

Where are those who say something like this? "Jordan Neely was a disgusting degenerate, but Daniel Penny should not have murdered him, because accepting such a murder is a dangerous precedent."
 
I marvel at those who take the side of a murderous vigilante -- people who brag about how law-and-order they are and how tough on crime they are.

Is that something that they want to encourage?

Where are those who say something like this? "Jordan Neely was a disgusting degenerate, but Daniel Penny should not have murdered him, because accepting such a murder is a dangerous precedent."
IKR? Like, how hard is it to not use the fact someone is a disgusting degenerate to forgive someone who chokes ANYONE out so long as to kill them.

The guy was told that they were killing someone, and ignored the advice to continue the killing.
 
There was a naked woman. So what?
People randomly taking their clothes off is usually a sign of mental illness and/or drug intoxication. They should not be ignored for their own protection if nothing else.
I would judge them on behavior, not attire. Laying on a sofa isn't a threat to themselves or anyone else, I don't care if they are wearing a birthday suit or a burqa.
 
You do not think public defecation should be an arrestable offense? Do you think it's a problem at all? What would Mayor Politesse do about it?
Depends on what they do--I'll apply the same standards that are the norm in the wilderness: You either bury it properly or do it in a bag and dispose of it properly. Some heavy use places mandate the bag and some are de-facto mandated by inability to comply with the burying rules--and compliance is impossible in any urban or suburban area. Technically it's only legal to dispose of in the trash if the proper neutralizer is applied but in practice city dwellers don't--diapers are simply tossed.
 
How The Media Failed Jordan Neely | HuffPost Latest News
After Daniel Penny killed Jordan Neely with a chokehold on May 1, several local media outlets reported that Neely had thrown trash at subway passengers, aggressively threatened them and got into an argument with Penny before Penny tackled him to the ground.

But within a few days, as reporting relied less on anonymous law enforcement sources, journalists began poking holes in each of these details, and outright contradicted some of them.

By that time, though, the two men involved in the incident had been painted with broad brushes. Penny, a 24-year-old white man, was written not as someone who’d used a deadly martial arts position for several minutes straight, but rather as a Marine veteran looking for work as a bartender in New York. Neely, on the other hand, was a Black, homeless, mentally ill former Michael Jackson impersonator ― an “unhinged” “vagrant,” as the New York Post described him ― whose killing recalled an era “when residents felt besieged by crime,” as The Associated Press put it.
That chokehold ought to have been *very* suspicious -- DP clearly knew what he was doing.
Even after the city’s medical examiner found that Neely, 30, died of a fatal chokehold, some outlets used passive, soft language and invited debate. ...

For several days, media reports withheld Penny’s name while printing Neely’s police record.

That record included dozens of arrests, some for assault and many for lesser charges like fare evasion. And police sources appeared to immediately leak Neely’s rap sheet to news outlets after his death, despite Neely having just been killed in public.
The NYPD is known to leak criminal records of defendants, but JN is the first homicide victim whose criminal record they leaked.
The rap sheet is very relevant here. It shows Neely actually was a danger, it's just he made the mistake of going after someone who could defend themselves and then kept fighting back rather than surrendering. I think the police got it right and the prosecution is political.
 
This has become a big issue, and I've been neglectful of it. :( The  Killing of Jordan Neely -- I'll quote that article's first three paragraphs, because they seem like a good summary of the incident.
And I will quote another salient paragraph.
wikipedia said:
According to a police officer, Neely had been arrested 42 times by NYPD; many of the arrests were for minor violations, but three were for unprovoked assaults on women in the NYC subway.[48][49] In 2015, Neely pled guilty to endangering the welfare of a child after dragging a 7-year-old girl down a street; he was sentenced to four months in jail.[50][51][52] At the time of his death, he was subject to a 15-month alternative to incarceration program after pleading guilty in February 2023 to felony assault of a 67-year-old woman, whom he punched as she exited a train station in November 2021, breaking her nose and fracturing an orbital bone. Under the terms of the program, Neely was to live in a treatment facility in the Bronx. He had a warrant issued for his arrest after he missed a court date to update a judge on his progress and abandoned the treatment facility 13 days after he started the program.[53][54][46]
Emphasis mine. "Alternative to incarceration" program for felony assault? With a lengthy rap sheep, including previous assaults, including against a 7 year old girl? Neely should have been in prison. But that's typical of Alvin Bragg and his fellow fauxgressive DAs. Soft on crimes for people he likes, overcharging people he doesn't (not just Perry, but he also wanted to charge a store clerk with murder just for defending himself)

And Neely even absconded from that overly generous program.

According to police, witnesses said Neely was acting in a "hostile and erratic" manner, yelling that he was hungry and thirsty,[4] that he would hurt anyone on the train, that he did not mind "going to jail or getting life in prison" and was "ready to die."[5] Vázquez said that Neely did not physically attack anyone,[6] but other witnesses reported him throwing trash at passengers.[7]
Throwing objects is a physical attack. And he was also threatening people with violence.
He was not a good guy. It is pretty messed up that many on the left neglect to mention any of this and instead just call him a "Michael Jackson impersonator".

Penny approached Neely from behind, placing him in a chokehold.[8] According to Vázquez the chokehold lasted for 15 minutes, three minutes of which he recorded on video.[9][10][11]
The 15 minute timeline is disputed. Is there any other source for it other than this Vázquez person?
On May 11, it was announced that Penny would be charged with second-degree manslaughter.[19]
From what I have heard from legal experts, this is an overcharge and "negligent homicide" would fit the facts better.
But again, that's typical of Bragg. He undercharges people like Neely, even after being a repeat and repeat again offender, and overcharges people like Perry.
 
The NYPD is known to leak criminal records of defendants, but JN is the first homicide victim whose criminal record they leaked.
Why shouldn't they? It paints a more comprehensive, more accurate picture of the decedent.
The activists wants us to be kept in the dark about who Jordan Neely really was. Just like they complained when the video of #BLM OG Michael Brown robbing the convenience store was released. It interfered with their false narrative of Brown as a "gentle giant".
 
Last edited:
He seemed like so many other deranged people -- scary, but for the most part, not physically dangerous.
The 67 year old woman whom he beat up breaking her nose and orbital bone might disagree with that assessment. So might the 7 year old girl he dragged. So might the other people he assaulted. Why wasn't he sent up the river? Why did Bragg give him such a sweetheart deal?
Now, the case is in prosecutors’ hands. The Manhattan district attorney’s office is fielding criticism from all sides ― on the right, for bringing a case at all against a supposed “Good Samaritan” acting in self-defense, and from Neely’s family, for not pursuing a murder charge.
There is no legal basis for a murder charge. Even 2nd degree manslaughter is a stretch.

As to Neely's family. Where were they while he was alive? Why didn't they help him with shelter and access to mental healthcare? Why are they only crawling out of woodwork now, when there is a prospect of a lucrative lawsuit against the city? Did they already hire Crump or some other bottomfeeder?
 
Back
Top Bottom