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Minimum Wage Study - MW Does Not Kill Jobs

The minimum wage was explicitly created to chop the bottom rungs off the employment ladder
Not around here it wasn't

Thirty years before the inception of a minimum wage in the US, the 1907 Harvester judgement in Australia established as a principle of Australian Commonwealth Law that a working man should be paid a wage sufficient to support both himself and his wife and children.

As the National Museum of Australia website comments:

The decision was a landmark case because, for the first time, employers were challenged to formulate wages on the basic needs of their employees rather than being solely concerned with the company’s profits
Why should employers as a class be singled out to take on this responsibility but other buyers are not?

Why is that when you pay for WAGE LABOR you're required to babysit the seller, but when you buy any other commodity such a requirement is not imposed onto you?

E.g., as a shopper or customer you're not required to take care of the seller's wife and children, even though that store owner or that vendor might be poor or be suffering economic hardship. There are many cases of a seller (other than wage-earner) suffering and in need of help to survive and raise his family. Why is it only the wage-earner sellers we have to feel sorry for and look after their needs, but not any other sellers who are just as much in need?

Some sellers, vendors, store owners are barely surviving, on the edge of bankruptcy, trying to survive and make ends meet, in debt, afflicted by hard times.
 
The minimum wage was explicitly created to chop the bottom rungs off the employment ladder
Not around here it wasn't

Thirty years before the inception of a minimum wage in the US, the 1907 Harvester judgement in Australia established as a principle of Australian Commonwealth Law that a working man should be paid a wage sufficient to support both himself and his wife and children.

As the National Museum of Australia website comments:

The decision was a landmark case because, for the first time, employers were challenged to formulate wages on the basic needs of their employees rather than being solely concerned with the company’s profits
Why should employers as a class be singled out to take on this responsibility but other buyers are not?

Why is that when you pay for WAGE LABOR you're required to babysit the seller, but when you buy any other commodity such a requirement is not imposed onto you?

E.g., as a shopper or customer you're not required to take care of the seller's wife and children, even though that store owner or that vendor might be poor or be suffering economic hardship. There are many cases of a seller (other than wage-earner) suffering and in need of help to survive and raise his family. Why is it only the wage-earner sellers we have to feel sorry for and look after their needs, but not any other sellers who are just as much in need?
Don't you understand basic commerce? When you buy something from a vendor they make a profit from that sale that they can use to feed their children and pay for a house, etcetera. Wages are also a payment for a product - the labor of the worker.
Also, businesses, big and small, get lots of help from the government and from taxpayers (the workers).
Companies still end up with a better deal than consumers/workers, and plenty of profits.
 
A little healthy "exploitation" never hurt anyone.
The minimum wage was explicitly created to chop the bottom rungs off the employment ladder
Not around here it wasn't
Nor here in the USA. It was instituted nationally in 1938 by the Fair Labor Standards Act to prevent exploitation of workers.
What about "exploitation" of independent contractors and vendors and other low-income workers not lucky enough to be covered by labor laws? What about babysitters? What about house spouses who work for free? What about volunteers who are exploited? What about prison laborers? What about community orchestras which exploit musicians usually unpaid or paid less than $1/hour? What about blood-and-plasma seller/donors who are paid only $20/pint? What about volunteers during a flood who fill sandbags? and thousands of other examples of people being exploited for profit in one form or another?

Why is it that the only ones we feel sorry for are the $10/hour wage-earners when there are millions of others paid far less than this who get no "fair labor standards" at all?
 
A little healthy "exploitation" never hurt anyone.
The minimum wage was explicitly created to chop the bottom rungs off the employment ladder
Not around here it wasn't
Nor here in the USA. It was instituted nationally in 1938 by the Fair Labor Standards Act to prevent exploitation of workers.
What about "exploitation" of independent contractors and vendors and other low-income workers not lucky enough to be covered by labor laws? What about babysitters? What about house spouses who work for free? What about volunteers who are exploited? What about prison laborers? What about community orchestras which exploit musicians usually unpaid or paid less than $1/hour? What about blood-and-plasma seller/donors who are paid only $20/pint? What about volunteers during a flood who fill sandbags? and thousands of other examples of people being exploited for profit in one form or another?

Why is that the only ones we feel sorry for are the $10/hour wage-earners when there are millions of others paid far less than this who get no recognition at all?
Yes, you listed a lot of other victims, The ordinary worker isn't their enemy not their exploiters. Corporations, conservative governments, most billionaires, landlords, and many employers are the exploiters. They are also the ones who damage the environment often.
Of course, not all workers are virtuous, just as not all people are in those categories you named. Also, they are not exclusive - many of thoese you mentioned are also in the low paid worker category.
 
where the plumbers are paid minimum wage and the hamburger-flippers $50/hour?

Ah yes. The old strawman gambit again. If burger flippers were paid $1 an hour, burgers would be cheap. So let us stimulate demand for burgers by slashing minimum wage for burger flippers to $1 an hour.
You're right, at least this once: There is no need to "stimulate demand" for anything. All that is just more CRYBABY ECONOMICS. Also SNAKE-OIL ECONOMICS.
 
Snake oil economics. Exposed as that by those Nobel Prize winning economists who have debunked the right winger economic charlatans who keep getting Minimum Wage facts wrong.
 
Employer-bashing comes first
and -scapegoating
= highest MW priority
And people in the 1.1 to 1.5 range are only relevant if you have a big change to minimum wage.
Like the 52% - 73% referenced above? You know - the ones you complain about? The ones that did NOT cost the jobs that conservos flatly stated would be “lost”?
And herein lies the true motive--punishment.
Bullshit.
Oh, it would be nice to let everyone who wants to be an oligarch be an oligarch - I don’t mean to “punish” them, just maybe take a small fraction of a percent of existing oligarchs’ excess riches to provide subsistence to the less greedy.
You have no empirical data to show that minimum wage law provides any such "subsistence" to anyone. You have no empirical studies proving that minimum-wage workers would be starving otherwise, and that those below minimum wage are starving.

Redistributing wealth from the oligarchs to the lower class has nothing to do with driving up labor costs to employers, most of whom are not the super-rich. Employers who hire cheap labor are mostly the less wealthy small businesses struggling to survive. Kicking these in the teeth with MW law does nothing to get at the greedy "oligarchs."

Having less restrictions on employers, allowing them to hire whoever they need at any agreed price, would result in much more income to the lower classes, even though much would be in low-wage jobs. Still the living standard among the poor would greatly increase as lower-level employers would expand and seek more help which they could afford at the lower cost.

But when your main concern is venom and hate against employers as a class, then of course you don't really care about doing what's best for the poor and for all consumers and the whole nation. Spewing hate against the scapegoat takes first priority.
As someone who supported herself on minimum wage--I can assure you that it was a near starvation 'living.' There were days when I did not eat. At the time, I worked for a restaurant chain, making food for other people that I could not eat. YES many restaurants and chains DO provide deep discounts for employees and good ones feed employees a meal for free. This one did neither. The chain did not allow tipping, which was a huge part of its charm. Certainly was not the food.
 
Minimum wage theory = the law of supply-and-demand is suspended
(only for labor of course)


(some material for Drag Queen Story Hour)

Static demand and supply analysis indicates a reduction in the use of labor when wages increase. The amount of the reduction in the static case depends on the responsiveness of demand for labor and the supply of labor to wages. Typically, neither is very responsive ( the technical term is inelastic ) in the short run which is why I suspect it is rare to find a noticeable result. Over longer periods of time, neither demand or supply remains unchanged which makes teasing out the sole effect even more difficult.
Never mind "longer periods of time"; In any situation where some disposable incomes increase (higher wage) and others decrease (reduced hours and/or job losses), demand certainly changes, and the total size of the economy likely also changes.

The instant you change minimum wage, you also necessarily change supply and/or demand.
But not if you change the price of anything else. This suspension of supply-and-demand is a magical phenomenon which happens only when something about labor changes but not any other commodity in the market or anything else in the universe.

The overall effect is impossible to ascertain by a simplistic calculation based on the false assumption that neither demand nor the total size of the economy has varied.

And we haven't even considered that productivity will likely also change. If a team of ten staff is reduced to nine, those nine will likely still get the same work done, at least for a time. Equally, it might be harder to get the same work done if an eleventh employee is hired, as the new guy needs training and may generate additional work fixing their errors while they're learning. Productivity is VERY elastic. And most workplaces have some slack "built in" to allow for unexpected increases in demand, or unexpected employee absences, or both.

The real world isn't simple, and a simplistic analysis of it by simpletons is rarely useful.

Increasing minimum wage could easily lead to increased employment, . . .
Of course increased employment could follow, just as tougher gun laws could lead to double the cases of mass shootings.

But we're entitled to reason what the CAUSE of the change is and to discount something unlikely. Of course there's NO ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY -- 100% probability to any prediction or explanation of the outcomes and causes.

But forcing up the price of labor is unlikely to cause an increase in the demand for labor, just like the price of anything else in the economy. We always assume, safely, for good reason, that a higher price for something in itself will cause some reduced demand for it. There's no reason to set aside this reasonable assumption only in the case of wages, or a forced higher wage level, imposed higher cost.

What other example is there in the economy where we assume a higher cost of something leads normally to more demand for it?

There are some RARE EXCEPTIONS you could probably name. But this is not the norm, and we're entitled to assume the norm for most cases of higher cost. Usually the law of supply & demand does apply, meaning a higher cost causes less demand. We can name many examples of it, from historical precedent. Plus also it's a basic axiom of economics that buyers prefer LOWER cost, not higher. And for labor theory, the employers are BUYERS and the workers are SELLERS, and these buyers and sellers show the same normal behavior patterns as all other buyers and sellers.

. . . easily lead to increased employment, rather than the reduced employment that a crude analysis suggests.
What's "crude" about assuming that the normal supply-and-demand conditions apply to a given case where there's no evidence to suggest otherwise?

. . . rather than the reduced employment that a crude analysis suggests. And remember, the moon-landing never really happened. It's de . . . .
J-u-u-u-u-ust kidding. He never really said that. I'm just checking to see if you're awake.

It's dependent on the starting conditions and the magnitude of the increase, and the likelihood is that the direction, as well as the magnitude, of any changes will vary from one location to another.
O-o-o-o-K so then tell us which are the locations where the law of supply-and-demand does not apply. Where is it that higher cost results in higher demand from buyers rather than lower? where buyers flock to the store or gas station where the prices doubled and away from where there's a discount? where the plumbers are paid minimum wage and the hamburger-flippers $50/hour?

Is this happening on some planet where the law of gravity also has been suspended?
1. Why do you not understand that labor is in demand? When there is a labor shortage (such as right now in the US), the cost of labor increases.

2. Why do you think that CEOs and CFOs and other upper management deserve to earn 400 times the wages of the AVERAGE worker for that corporation?

3. Why do you think that it is OK to pay certain groups of people such a low wage that society must provide additional supports such as SNAP/EBT, subsidized housing, free breakfast and lunch at school, subsidized child care, Medicaid?

4. Why do you support slavery and a permanent underclass while the uberwealthy live like kings?
 
What is the result of higher wage
artificially forced up by MW law fiat?
rather than the market?
I don't see how you are addressing my point at all.
If increasing a wage results in less hours instead of fewer jobs, then an increase in the minimum wage does not cause a job loss.
Maybe. But what it causes is reduced production, with fewer hours of work. And reduced production = reduced supply and higher prices = lower living standard for all consumers.
……

In a world where there neither employers and employees have any market power to affect market wages, and all other influences are unchanged, an increase in the minimum wage reduces the amount of labour used. Whether an increase in the minimum wage makes workers as a group better or worse off is an empirical question.

In any other world, whether or not a specific increase in the minimum wage causes a reduction in the amount of labour and reduced production in a specific region is an empirical question. Whether it reduces or improves the standard of living is an empirical question.

What this means is that a particular actual increase in the minimum wage may cause net harm or net benefit depending on the situation and time, regardless of the amount of walks of text you dump on this forum.
 
Minimum wage and a living wage are different things.

Minimum wage was infected to put a lower limit om wage to minimize business driving wages down to nothing. As an uncle of mine who started out as a construction laborer said, if you did not want to work for $.70 an hour somebody behind you would work for less.

Min wage was never intendeds to be an adult living wage.

Raising min wage in Seattle did have side effects. Companies that made work for disabled and others could not pay the higher min wage.
 
Minimum wage and a living wage are different things.

Minimum wage was infected to put a lower limit om wage to minimize business driving wages down to nothing. As an uncle of mine who started out as a construction laborer said, if you did not want to work for $.70 an hour somebody behind you would work for less.

Min wage was never intendeds to be an adult living wage.

Raising min wage in Seattle did have side effects. Companies that made work for disabled and others could not pay the higher min wage.
This is a good point. In our town, there is a business that employs disabled people in a sheltered work place situation. When the minimum wage increased, they were no longer able to pay their employees the new wage.

This is a situation where it seems to me that the government could and should step in to make it possible for every person, regardless of the job category, to be able to earn a living wage. In the case of the sheltered workplace I mentioned, it would have been a good time for the state or city (who am I kidding? Our city will pay nothing for any reason whatsoever) to subsidize the wages for those workers.
 
Time and time again, conservative politicians and their pet charlatan economists have shrieked and howled raising minimum wages would create mass unemployment, loss of small businesses and locust plagues etc. But states, and local governments have raised minimum wages.

And the promised unemployment apocalypse has never occurred as loudly squealed about from these morons. That is all.
translation: Though minimum wage increase makes the nation worse off, it's OK because the total damage done is small. It's good to inflict small amounts of damage.
Yes, small amounts of damage are better than large amounts of damage.

But so far, you have not demonstrated that increasing minimum wage does any damage at all.
Ah, but you see..."increasing minimum wage is catastrophic" is an article of faith. No amount of studies or real-world evidence will change that.
But it's in BOLD so it must be true.
 
Min wage was never intendeds to be an adult living wage.
It certainly was around here.

The minimum wage was explicitly created to chop the bottom rungs off the employment ladder
Not around here it wasn't

Thirty years before the inception of a minimum wage in the US, the 1907 Harvester judgement in Australia established as a principle of Australian Commonwealth Law that a working man should be paid a wage sufficient to support both himself and his wife and children.

As the National Museum of Australia website comments:

The decision was a landmark case because, for the first time, employers were challenged to formulate wages on the basic needs of their employees rather than being solely concerned with the company’s profits
"a wage sufficient to support both himself and his wife and children"

That was in 1907. Before any action minimum wages had even been enacted. And it set the scene for everything that came afterwards.

I doubt that the concepts were dramatically different in the USA.
 
Minimum wage and a living wage are different things.

Minimum wage was infected to put a lower limit om wage to minimize business driving wages down to nothing. As an uncle of mine who started out as a construction laborer said, if you did not want to work for $.70 an hour somebody behind you would work for less.

Min wage was never intendeds to be an adult living wage.

Raising min wage in Seattle did have side effects. Companies that made work for disabled and others could not pay the higher min wage.
Wrong. Here is Franklin Roosevelt on the topic:
In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living.
 
It was instituted to keep blacks out of most jobs. Very easy to find on Google:


Just look at the unemployment rate for teens in the inner city, it's still doing it's job of keeping the black man down.

Offering lower wages to blacks is racist and even more effective at keeping the black man down.
What you're missing is that minimum wage is about chopping off the bottom runs of the ladder of success. Make sure those at the bottom have no way out. The Republicans are frequently (and quite correctly) accused of this but the left also comes up with ways because the only true route they have to raise wages is to reduce the labor pool.
 
You are conflating unforeseen consequences with intent.

Minimum wage laws do not abd never have kept blacks out of jobs. Racism has.

You seem to believe that a system that pays women and blacks less than white men and one which pays minors lower wages than adults more fair.
It was most certainly the intent.

And it's not specifically about blacks or women, it's about keeping those at the bottom down.
 
GDP is a measure of production. It is also a measure of income generated. If labor income increases (i.e. the proportional increase in the minimum wage exceeds the absolute value in the proportional reduction in hours worked), GDP rises.

Whether there is a net reduction in the supply of needed products is an empirical question.
Your continued bringing up of irrelevant things merely adjacent to the issue shows that you know that you don't have a case.

A free market will always push towards the point of maximum productivity given the driving forces. There are two cases where this is an undesirable outcome:

1) The market fails to price externalities. We typically regulate this by things like pollution laws but it would be better handled by imposing those as costs.

2) We decide that fairness is more important. Typically this takes the form of worker rights laws. Note that this does not change the fact that we are making the market inefficient, it just says that sometimes fairness can't be assigned a price. (Although in most cases I think it could be--I rather suspect most worker rights issues could be handled akin to unemployment insurance: attach a cost to the undesired behavior, use the money to provide for those who suffer because of it.)

To pretend that you can impose fairness and yet increase productivity is 1984 level doublespeak.
Why on earth are babbling about productivity or fairness? Nothing I wrote mentioned that.
You're still in 1984 mode.

Productivity: Note the part you failed to quote above:

But the effect in that case is REDUCED PRODUCTION = less supply of needed products which would be worth the cost = higher prices and lower living standard overall. The reduced production, or lower GDP, is a negative net effect of minimum wage law.
You didn't say it, the post you quoted did.

Fairness: Why else would you have a minimum wage law??
 
The higher prices caused by MW are a harm to consumers greater than the benefit to wage-earners. The wage-earners must be benefiting enough from their wage, even if it's low, because otherwise they would resign rather than work for less than it's worth. Obviously it's worth it to them or they would just quit, which is the real test of whether the wage is high enough. The only need for a higher wage is in order to discourage them from quitting, which sometimes is done, but that happens automatically with no MW law needed to make it happen. The employer has all the incentive necessary to increase the wage level however high to ensure that enough workers are there doing the needed work, and beyond that cost level the work is simply not worth it, or what's produced wouldn't have enough value.
While you are right that the straight-up economic harm clearly exceeds the benefit this does not prove there is no reason for it. You can make an argument that society benefits from precluding low-wage jobs from existing. Now, I think that argument is wrong but it's not nonsense. The reality is that most minimum wage jobs are held by secondary earners, not primary earners and there's no societal reason against secondary earners being able to find such work.
 
Paying people less than a liveable wage also increases costs to society as society steps in to partially ameliorate the ills of poverty. This comes from taxing that ‘everyone else’ that you are sooo concerned about protecting. Of course the wealthy ( individuals and corporations) are able to avoid paying taxes, making them double winners: they save on labor cost and they don’t have to pay what many consider to be their fair share of taxes. A third benefit is creating and maintaining a permanent underclass that has few choices but to continue in the lowest rungs of the work force.
"Livable wage" is a leftist dog-whistle for more than they are worth. And you're the one trying to maintain an underclass by chopping off the bottom of the ladder. You push inner city black youth into crime because you have chopped off the only legal path out.

The reality that you are trying to avoid is that people climb the ladder over time. A lot of people start at the bottom but few remain there.
 
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