Minimum Wage Study - MW Does Not Kill Jobs

[laughing dog]

You are conflating unforeseen consequences with intent.

Minimum wage laws do not abd never have kept blacks out of jobs. Racism has.

You seem to believe that a system that pays women and blacks less than white men and one which pays minors lower wages than adults more fair.

It was most certainly the intent.

You know the intent becsuse…..?

 

[laughing dog]

You're still in 1984 mode….

. More babble.

 

[Toni]

Time and time again, conservative politicians and their pet charlatan economists have shrieked and howled raising minimum wages would create mass unemployment, loss of small businesses and locust plagues etc. But states, and local governments have raised minimum wages.

And the promised unemployment apocalypse has never occurred as loudly squealed about from these morons. That is all.

translation: Though minimum wage increase makes the nation worse off, it's OK because the total damage done is small. It's good to inflict small amounts of damage.

Yes, small amounts of damage are better than large amounts of damage.

But so far, you have not demonstrated that increasing minimum wage does any damage at all.

We still have exactly one meaningful data point: American Samoa. It did a lot of harm.

Continuing to show that you can't see way below the noise floor proves nothing other than that the "research" isn't credible.

Really? There is plenty of data showing unemployment rates, poverty rates and wages.

What you mean is that there is only one data point that supports your position, which you prefer to remain elevated far above the great unwashed masses who did not choose to become computer scientists. While ignoring what would have happened to your earnings if everyone did what you did.

 

[laughing dog]

Minimum wage causes those who can't get hired at minimum wage to starve.

Really, how do you come up with such howlers ? It is possible to starve making the minimum wage, let alone a lower wage.

 

[Toni]

"Livable wage" is a leftist dog-whistle for more than they are worth. And you're the one trying to maintain an underclass by chopping off the bottom of the ladder. You push inner city black youth into crime because you have chopped off the only legal path out.

The reality that you are trying to avoid is that people climb the ladder over time. A lot of people start at the bottom but few remain there.

I've lived in the inner city. Ten years in the Humboldt Park neighborhood in Chicago taught me real lessons about the underclass. Those kids are undereducated, but they're not stupid. Given the choice between gang life and minimum wage, they go with where the money is.

You know fuck all about what you're talking about.

You miss the point--they don't have a choice because the jobs have been driven out.

The jobs have not ‘been driven out’. Choices are made to maximize profits for shareholders over providing the best quality product while respecting the environment and treating people like…people and not disposable slaves we cut lose when we think we can get a better deal elsewhere.
Because where those jobs are ‘driven out’ are to places with more lax ( s d cheaper) environmental protections and which employs people in conditions that are illegal because they are considered exploitive and too dangerous in the US. In the US, workers gave rights to a safe workplace and there are measures in place to prevent or to mitigate exploitive work conditions.

 

[Bronzeage]

When I was a job creator, which is to say, an employer, I could count on conservatives to work tirelessly to keep my payroll at the lowest possible level. When my landlord raised the rent, which was a much greater burden than a slight increase in payroll, they were no where to be seen.

 

[Juvenal]

I would bet inner city youth have far fewer opportunities for any job.

Good bet.

Many businesses just won't operate in those areas.

But lousy analysis.

How do you think I had a successful job while living right next to them? Nobody's stuck working in their own neighborhood in a major city when they can take the bus to the subway and head downtown, or anywhere else in the city. That's how I got to work, and when I needed to get anywhere else during the day, I'd step out on the street and hail a cab. And expense it.

Yes, they had fewer opportunities, but that's got nothing to do with business choices on where to operate. It's about who they choose to hire, people who looked like me, not people who looked like them.

It was a vicious cycle. They couldn't get jobs because nobody would hire them because they were gang bangers with police records who dropped out of high school. And they were gang bangers with police records who dropped out of school because the only successful people they saw around them were people like me, with white skin working jobs they'd never be able to qualify for, and gang bangers driving fancier cars than mine and fucking hot girls who were drawn to the same easy money.

And all of it fueled by drug money flowing into those neighborhoods sold by gangbangers welded to the gang by an initiation rite that forever separated them from polite society. You want to be in the gang and get your chance at the fancy cars and hot girls you have to get into a car with a mask on your face and shoot up the gangbangers from a rival gang in the next neighborhood over —who were initiated the very same way. Damn near all the kids I knew on my block had bullet wounds.

I was perfectly safe in that neighborhood, by the way. If I ever got in the way when they were wanting to shoot it up at the gang bangers selling crack on the next block they'd yell at me to get out of their line of fire. My white skin marked me. I wasn't a rival. They weren't monsters. Just drug dealers, and killers.

There were other local success stories, or relative success anyway. Mostly people who worked for the post office or teaching or some other government job with decent wages and job security, where racist hiring policies were kept in check.

 

[Juvenal]

Offering lower wages to blacks is racist and even more effective at keeping the black man down.

What you're missing is that minimum wage is about chopping off the bottom runs of the ladder of success. Make sure those at the bottom have no way out. The Republicans are frequently (and quite correctly) accused of this but the left also comes up with ways because the only true route they have to raise wages is to reduce the labor pool.

You posted an apologetic for allowing lower wages based on race and now you're saying I'm missing something? Here's what you're missing. Don't post your racist crap at me and expect I won't call you on your racism.

Don't be a racist.

And then I won't call you out on it.

Where did I say anything about wanting a lower minimum wage based on race?!

Right here.

It was instituted to keep blacks out of most jobs. Very easy to find on Google:

The Racist History of Minimum Wage Laws | Mises Institute

Historically, minimum wage laws have done a lot to stifle employment among African-Americans. The trend continues today.

mises.org

Just look at the unemployment rate for teens in the inner city, it's still doing it's job of keeping the black man down.

What you missed was the possibility someone would go beyond googling and actually read that article.

I'm simply pointing to the people that are the biggest victims--showing that it's not just a minor harm. The issue is actually the inner cities, not race, it's just the inner cities are mostly black so that's where the biggest effect falls.

No, you're spouting off in ignorance fueled by crap like that racist mises.org article, painting yourself with the same racist brush in the process.



I. Lived. In. The. Inner. City. Making six figures, downtown. Which is why I know you're full of crap. "It's the inner cities" is the same racist denial that gave us "Where's the birth certificate." No racist ever admits to racism, but it's still racism.

 

[Juvenal]

I've lived in the inner city. Ten years in the Humboldt Park neighborhood in Chicago taught me real lessons about the underclass. Those kids are undereducated, but they're not stupid. Given the choice between gang life and minimum wage, they go with where the money is.

You know fuck all about what you're talking about.

You miss the point--they don't have a choice because the jobs have been driven out.

You think there are no jobs in a major city.

Teh stupid. It hurts.

 

[laughing dog]

LP is correct that the black teenage unemployment is unconscionably high - usually 50% higher or more than the white teenage unemployment rate. Hmmm.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

No--this is a Russell's Teapot situation--and you're accepting a proof it's not there.

But you are the one making the claim, not others. Some people say that a rise in minimum wage is necessary. You and other conservatives suggested it'd cause unemployment. I don't once remember anyone from the economic conservative side saying the unemployment would be undetectable! And now, it seems like you are arguing in gaps. It is real, we just can't see it. Very much like god.

No. Look at the thread--it's about a study that supposedly proved that raising the minimum wage doesn't cause unemployment Russell's Teapot doesn't exist. You're on the side of faith, not me.

No, that's crap. You and others have said min wage hike, hikes up unemployment. You never said it'd be undetectable. That is the primary claim being made and has been made repeatedly... and you are making it now, but qualifying it in a manner you (and others) didn't qualify previously. You can get cute with the teapot, but the trouble is, YOU ARE THE ONE WHO SAID THERE WAS A TEAPOT!!!

And the reality is that in an open marketplace (which low wage workers in cities approximates well enough) that prices will be driven to the optimum point and thus any forcing them away from this will reduce productivity. Basic economics says it must be there, nothing from your side even attempts to actually rebut it. It's just proclamations that it might not happen. Just because it's the price of labor rather than the price of a thing doesn't change the fact the market will maximize the area of the rectangle.

I figured that if all companies were required to life the rate, it'd be across the board, costs increase a bit, prices follow, but people aren't making shit an hour. Instead, they'd be making a shit and a half... as again $15 an hour ISN'T ALOT OF MONEY!

And when the market stabilizes after 50% of inflation (it won't all happen in one year) they're still making shit.

1) So, when does that happen or when a study shows we didn't have 50% inflation, are you going to say inflation is another Russell's Teapot and note the inflation is undetectable?

2) 50% inflation? Are you really going with the silly hyperbole argument? The cost of labor is just a portion of the cost of production. Increasing labor does not increase the price of production 1 to 1. You can't have it both ways. You can't say the number of people at minimum wage are insignificant, hence why you can't see the unemployment increase... and then say inflation will skyrocket. These are not compatible claims.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We still have exactly one meaningful data point: American Samoa.

Except it's not a meaningful datapoint in the discussion of minimum wages in a single nation state.

It's a good example of why first world colonial powers shouldn't try to have the same laws apply to their third world colonies as apply at home.

Not even if they're pretending to themselves that they're not a colonial power.

American Samoa is the only example of where impacts to minimum wage workers would be expected to be above the noise floor. We saw the expected effects. Colonial powers have nothing to do with it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Time and time again, conservative politicians and their pet charlatan economists have shrieked and howled raising minimum wages would create mass unemployment, loss of small businesses and locust plagues etc. But states, and local governments have raised minimum wages.

And the promised unemployment apocalypse has never occurred as loudly squealed about from these morons. That is all.

translation: Though minimum wage increase makes the nation worse off, it's OK because the total damage done is small. It's good to inflict small amounts of damage.

Yes, small amounts of damage are better than large amounts of damage.

But so far, you have not demonstrated that increasing minimum wage does any damage at all.

We still have exactly one meaningful data point: American Samoa. It did a lot of harm.

Continuing to show that you can't see way below the noise floor proves nothing other than that the "research" isn't credible.

Really? There is plenty of data showing unemployment rates, poverty rates and wages.

What you mean is that there is only one data point that supports your position, which you prefer to remain elevated far above the great unwashed masses who did not choose to become computer scientists. While ignoring what would have happened to your earnings if everyone did what you did.

It is normal in scientific research to report a null result if your error bars include the null. What we are seeing here is absence of proof, which is not proof of absence even though it's being reported as such.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Minimum wage causes those who can't get hired at minimum wage to starve.

Really, how do you come up with such howlers ? It is possible to starve making the minimum wage, let alone a lower wage.

Once again I see no attempt to rebut.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Offering lower wages to blacks is racist and even more effective at keeping the black man down.

What you're missing is that minimum wage is about chopping off the bottom runs of the ladder of success. Make sure those at the bottom have no way out. The Republicans are frequently (and quite correctly) accused of this but the left also comes up with ways because the only true route they have to raise wages is to reduce the labor pool.

You posted an apologetic for allowing lower wages based on race and now you're saying I'm missing something? Here's what you're missing. Don't post your racist crap at me and expect I won't call you on your racism.

Don't be a racist.

And then I won't call you out on it.

Where did I say anything about wanting a lower minimum wage based on race?!

Right here.

It was instituted to keep blacks out of most jobs. Very easy to find on Google:

The Racist History of Minimum Wage Laws | Mises Institute

Historically, minimum wage laws have done a lot to stifle employment among African-Americans. The trend continues today.

mises.org

Just look at the unemployment rate for teens in the inner city, it's still doing it's job of keeping the black man down.

What you missed was the possibility someone would go beyond googling and actually read that article.

Minimum wage started out racist--because they wanted to restrict the labor pool by keeping blacks out of it.

It's still about restricting the labor pool although it's not deliberately racist anymore.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No--this is a Russell's Teapot situation--and you're accepting a proof it's not there.

But you are the one making the claim, not others. Some people say that a rise in minimum wage is necessary. You and other conservatives suggested it'd cause unemployment. I don't once remember anyone from the economic conservative side saying the unemployment would be undetectable! And now, it seems like you are arguing in gaps. It is real, we just can't see it. Very much like god.

No. Look at the thread--it's about a study that supposedly proved that raising the minimum wage doesn't cause unemployment Russell's Teapot doesn't exist. You're on the side of faith, not me.

No, that's crap. You and others have said min wage hike, hikes up unemployment. You never said it'd be undetectable. That is the primary claim being made and has been made repeatedly... and you are making it now, but qualifying it in a manner you (and others) didn't qualify previously. You can get cute with the teapot, but the trouble is, YOU ARE THE ONE WHO SAID THERE WAS A TEAPOT!!!

The whole point is we can't know about the teapot. Your side is the one claiming to have proven it doesn't exist.

And the reality is that in an open marketplace (which low wage workers in cities approximates well enough) that prices will be driven to the optimum point and thus any forcing them away from this will reduce productivity. Basic economics says it must be there, nothing from your side even attempts to actually rebut it. It's just proclamations that it might not happen. Just because it's the price of labor rather than the price of a thing doesn't change the fact the market will maximize the area of the rectangle.

I figured that if all companies were required to life the rate, it'd be across the board, costs increase a bit, prices follow, but people aren't making shit an hour. Instead, they'd be making a shit and a half... as again $15 an hour ISN'T ALOT OF MONEY!

And when the market stabilizes after 50% of inflation (it won't all happen in one year) they're still making shit.

1) So, when does that happen or when a study shows we didn't have 50% inflation, are you going to say inflation is another Russell's Teapot and note the inflation is undetectable?

2) 50% inflation? Are you really going with the silly hyperbole argument? The cost of labor is just a portion of the cost of production. Increasing labor does not increase the price of production 1 to 1. You can't have it both ways. You can't say the number of people at minimum wage are insignificant, hence why you can't see the unemployment increase... and then say inflation will skyrocket. These are not compatible claims.

In the long run the cost of labor is the entire cost of production. Anything that's not labor is actually buying somebody else's labor.

 

[Elixir]

In the long run the cost of labor is the entire cost of production.

Yabut ...
The opposite is equally true - in the long run the cost of stuff is the entire cost of production. Any labor is just paying people to assemble stuff into value-added forms of stuff or move stuff to new, more useful locations where value can be added.
Just a matter of perspective. I don't see the real world utility of either paradigm, but I'm frankly terrible with money.

 

[Toni]

Time and time again, conservative politicians and their pet charlatan economists have shrieked and howled raising minimum wages would create mass unemployment, loss of small businesses and locust plagues etc. But states, and local governments have raised minimum wages.

And the promised unemployment apocalypse has never occurred as loudly squealed about from these morons. That is all.

translation: Though minimum wage increase makes the nation worse off, it's OK because the total damage done is small. It's good to inflict small amounts of damage.

Yes, small amounts of damage are better than large amounts of damage.

But so far, you have not demonstrated that increasing minimum wage does any damage at all.

We still have exactly one meaningful data point: American Samoa. It did a lot of harm.

Continuing to show that you can't see way below the noise floor proves nothing other than that the "research" isn't credible.

Really? There is plenty of data showing unemployment rates, poverty rates and wages.

What you mean is that there is only one data point that supports your position, which you prefer to remain elevated far above the great unwashed masses who did not choose to become computer scientists. While ignoring what would have happened to your earnings if everyone did what you did.

It is normal in scientific research to report a null result if your error bars include the null. What we are seeing here is absence of proof, which is not proof of absence even though it's being reported as such.

I understand what a null hypothesis is. I have a background in science.

You are only looking at a single instance with one employer leaving because of minimum wage. You are ignoring the decades of data that show that poverty decreased after a minimum wage was instituted. You are also ignoring the high rate of poverty for those in occupations that do not have a minimum wage: agriculture workers, undocumented workers in food service and food processing: those who have no better options.

Of course, a viable option would be for the employers to take a somewhat less enormous profit and pay their workers a decent wage.

 

[laughing dog]

Minimum wage causes those who can't get hired at minimum wage to starve.

Really, how do you come up with such howlers ? It is possible to starve making the minimum wage, let alone a lower wage.

Once again I see no attempt to rebut.

Open your eyes, read then think about what you read.

 

[laughing dog]

In the long run the cost of labor is the entire cost of production. Anything that's not labor is actually buying somebody else's labor.

So in the long run, Marx was right!