Split Conservatives Feel Attacked (was Special Counsel 2)

[Loren Pechtel]

Japan can use mostly light rail because it's so dense. The dominant form of transit heavily depends on population density, what works well at one density can work very badly at another. (Imagine bush planes in Tokyo or subways in the Alaska bush for some extremes.)

Japan uses light rail because they didn't socialize their transportation system. It's vastly more efficient. But it isn't as profitable for auto makers and oil companies and such.
Ya know, the real government.

There are "interstate highways" in Japan, but they aren't subsidized by tax payers, who may not even use them. Everyone has another option.

Japan is dense enough that mass transit wins--and thus people don't have cars for those inter-city trips and take the train.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

“If we keep looking for and pushing for common ground” is more than a bromide I think (hope). It could be a behavioral prescription for avoiding becoming what we bemoan - which is what Toni seems to warn us of.

Yeah, it's always struck me as a bromide.

My feeling is that common ground is something the right detests, regardless of what it might be. Even if it’s ground traditionally staked out by conservatives. But I guess that should not deter us from seeking it for our own sakes, if not for theirs. At least we can sleep soundly knowing we tried to find some use for the reactionary trumpsuckers …

Definitely. The leadership of the right is actively trying to divide the faithful from the rest of society, standard cult behavior.

 

[Toni]

Loren, I know liberals think they want people to be able to make their own decisions, but that’s only true when they agree with the decisions being made.

In some places, so called blue laws meant that a lot of businesses could only operate on Sundays starting at noon so as not to interfere with church services. Some businesses simply were closed on Sundays. . A lot of people protested those laws. But when such laws were repealed, a lot of people protested because that eliminated the one day they could count on as ‘family time.’ In the name of freedom from unwarranted religious control, people lost time they could count in to spend time as families as more people had to work on Sundays.

Decisions have consequences. Some dislike the blue laws going away. Nobody's making a business be open on Sunday.

True but competition puts on a lot of pressure, at least in small towns.

 

[Gun Nut]

Split from this thread

Actual treason and espionage was committed intentionally.

....I think their willful ignorance and strident subscription to lies, defines them as purveyors of evil....

The word, I think, you are looking for is, "DEPLORABLE".

 

[jab]

What a lot of conservatives feel is attacked.

oh, first time?
yeah that’s hard. Wait’ll year 400.

Feel? What does feeling have to do with anything if I'm an adult and I can think and act rationally? I'm supposed to have mastered those "feelings" that controlled my behavior when I was a child.

Wake up, get woke; or tell that to the 'attacked" victims of microagressions.
What many "progressives" doesn't want to acknowledge is that American culture is full of class-based "microagressions".

 

[Toni]

What a lot of conservatives feel is attacked.

oh, first time?
yeah that’s hard. Wait’ll year 400.

Feel? What does feeling have to do with anything if I'm an adult and I can think and act rationally? I'm supposed to have mastered those "feelings" that controlled my behavior when I was a child.

Wake up, get woke; or tell that to the 'attacked" victims of microagressions.
What many "progressives" doesn't want to acknowledge is that American culture is full of class-based "microagressions".

Really? That sounds like a very progressive assertion to me.

 

[zorq]

You know, Toni, your sentiments in this thread remind me a lot of Cory Booker. Which is really cool, because Senator Booker was probably my favorite candidate for President in 2020. He is young, charming, and a good story teller. But his acknowledgement of the struggles of all Americans and his vision of healing the cultural schism by using understanding, empathy, and focusing on our common goals was/is inspirational. Mr. Booker believes that we can reach everyone, and help everyone, because everyone deserves a little help.

But, I have become more jaded since then. My MAGA relatives seem to have learned nothing from the 1/6 insurrection and if anything their vitrol and smug condescension toward liberals, or "pedophile groomers" as they are apparently known as now, has only gotten worse.

I have lost all faith in anyone aligned with the Republican party or any American who identifies in 2023 as "conservative." I have interacted with these people and I feel they are beyond the reaches of reason. They have their emotions, and frankly, I believe that there is nothing I or anyone else can do to help them change their minds regarding some of the vile, reprehensible, falsehoods (lies) they continuously regurgitate.

We live in different realities. One based primarily in facts, science, and empathy, and another based primarily in lies and passionate negative emotions.

I still believe that Senator Booker (and you?) are right, that if some rural / working / conservatives can be reached, it can only be done by showing them radical empathy and acknowledging and addressing their struggles. But I have come now to believe that the number of those conservatives who can be reached is so miniscule that it just isn't worth the effort any more. Our effort is better spent trying to address the damage that American conservatism causes rather than trying to prevent it by closing the schism.

 

[Toni]

You know, Toni, your sentiments in this thread remind me a lot of Cory Booker. Which is really cool, because Senator Booker was probably my favorite candidate for President in 2020. He is young, charming, and a good story teller. But his acknowledgement of the struggles of all Americans and his vision of healing the cultural schism by using understanding, empathy, and focusing on our common goals was/is inspirational. Mr. Booker believes that we can reach everyone, and help everyone, because everyone deserves a little help.

But, I have become more jaded since then. My MAGA relatives seem to have learned nothing from the 1/6 insurrection and if anything their vitrol and smug condescension toward liberals, or "pedophile groomers" as they are apparently known as now, has only gotten worse.

I have lost all faith in anyone aligned with the Republican party or any American who identifies in 2023 as "conservative." I have interacted with these people and I feel they are beyond the reaches of reason. They have their emotions, and frankly, I believe that there is nothing I or anyone else can do to help them change their minds regarding some of the vile, reprehensible, falsehoods (lies) they continuously regurgitate.

We live in different realities. One based primarily in facts, science, and empathy, and another based primarily in lies and passionate negative emotions.

I still believe that Senator Booker (and you?) are right, that if some rural / working / conservatives can be reached, it can only be done by showing them radical empathy and acknowledging and addressing their struggles. But I have come now to believe that the number of those conservatives who can be reached is so miniscule that it just isn't worth the effort any more. Our effort is better spent trying to address the damage that American conservatism causes rather than trying to prevent it by closing the schism.

What a very fine compliment you’ve paid me. I also like and admire him very much.

I am not naive enough to think we can reach everybody but I think we can reach enough—and then there’s a new generation coming right along who will insist on what we are merely hoping for. Partly I’m a stubborn person and partly, I think that refusing to give up is a radical act, an act of faith, if the sentiment can be excused here, is our only path here.

An old friend of mine has worked for the state police department ( clerical/admin support) almost since she graduated from high school. She’s a conservative Christian but she’s also capable of hearing reason, if it’s packaged correctly. She was convinced to get her COVID vaccine because her pastor’s wife, a pharmacist, assured the congregation that it was the right thing to do.

She’s never married and doesn’t earn much money. I’m actually quite concerned for her. We were talking one about money abc she said that there used to be a union when there was a Democrat as giver or abd that they hadn’t had a decent pay increase since the Republicans took over( again—this is a red state where I grew up). She almost gets it—it just has not clicked all the way for her. I have hopes that it will one day. Fir her, I think the two big issues she struggles with are her being Right To Life, as she sees it and also being very pro-police, which is natural give her job. We don’t talk politics—our friendship maybe wouldn’t survive that but she sees my Facebook feed full of lefty sentiments. She’s a genuinely kind person, who is extremely loyal to her family and friends. She has a big issue with my pro-choice stance. We have very different views on policing. I understand her point of view—I think she cannot understand mine.

There are some issues we will never agree on. But there are a lot of shared values. So, I make deliberate choices to focus on what we share and not what we disagree upon.

 

[Elixir]

I love all y’all starry eyed folk, having answered to that description at times.
Experience has tainted my optimism somewhat but I do continue to believe that the vast majority of people would like to think of themselves as kind or good, even as they commit atrocities against nature and mankind. Such folks probably could be salvaged. The ones who want to be thought of as badass, dangerous etc, might be less so.

 

[Toni]

What a lot of conservatives feel is attacked. They heavily feel the contempt that oozes from liberal talking points and tv shows that are so so cool and totally not within the ability of rubes to understand. They feel that their religious faith is under attack, that their way of life: farming, factory work, skilled or unskilled labor is looked down upon. That they are regarded as stupid and uninformed by those who went to college

I don't buy these JD Vance style sob stories. Rural conservatives shit on godless coastal liberal gay degenerate city slickers just as much if not more than the other way around, and somehow the godless coastal liberals manage not to become fascists.

Blaming the left/center for the right's turn toward fascism has got a strong "see what you made me do" quality to it.

Funny because at least one gay man from a small town in a very red midwestern state posts here on this very forum.

Pointing out that people with whom you have extremely sharp political ( philosophical, religious, cultural, generational, etc.) disagreements are actual human beings with while you share common values and much more than you may be comfortable with is not a ‘sob story.’ Loudly condemning others who hold somewhat different beliefs than you do is straight out of the FOX news playbook.

 

[Toni]

I love all y’all starry eyed folk, having answered to that description at times.
Experience has tainted my optimism somewhat but I do continue to believe that the vast majority of people would like to think of themselves as kind or good, even as they commit atrocities against nature and mankind. Such folks probably could be salvaged. The ones who want to be thought of as badass, dangerous etc, might be less so.

This is true and applies to all sides.

 

[CosmicJellyfish]

What a lot of conservatives feel is attacked. They heavily feel the contempt that oozes from liberal talking points and tv shows that are so so cool and totally not within the ability of rubes to understand. They feel that their religious faith is under attack, that their way of life: farming, factory work, skilled or unskilled labor is looked down upon. That they are regarded as stupid and uninformed by those who went to college

I don't buy these JD Vance style sob stories. Rural conservatives shit on godless coastal liberal gay degenerate city slickers just as much if not more than the other way around, and somehow the godless coastal liberals manage not to become fascists.

Blaming the left/center for the right's turn toward fascism has got a strong "see what you made me do" quality to it.

Funny because at least one gay man from a small town in a very red midwestern state posts here on this very forum.

Here he is agreeing with me that right-wing rhetoric is far worse:

Split - Conservatives Feel Attacked (was Special Counsel 2)

But what I hear from a lot of my fellow liberals is a lot of unstated fuck your feelings and we college educated people know what’s best for YOU. Wrapped up in a lot of politically correct verbiage, of course. If you think liberals are mean, wait until you hear about what right-wingers say...

iidb.org

Pointing out that people with whom you have extremely sharp political ( philosophical, religious, cultural, generational, etc.) disagreements are actual human beings with while you share common values and much more than you may be comfortable with is not a ‘sob story.’

You are pedaling right-wing victimhood. Right-wingers aren't victims. They are the assholes that perpetuate the social and economic hierarchies from which they benefit (or think they benefit).

Moreover, when you lecture to people on the left about how right-wingers are "actual human beings", you are preaching to the choir. Left-wing politics are by definition egalitarian. Right-wingers are the ones who think inequality is natural and exists because some people are just better than others, e.g. "black people are poorer because they are lazy". So really, right-wingers are the ones you should be lecturing.

Loudly condemning others who hold somewhat different beliefs than you do is straight out of the FOX news playbook.

"somewhat different beliefs"

You are minimizing how destructive fascism is. These assholes tried to overthrow an election, they want to turn women into incubators, they are doing everything possible to make it harder for black people to vote, they are making life hell for lgbt people, they are concentrating more and more wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people, etc, etc...

I mean, what you're doing is like someone in Nazi Germany telling Jewish people that Jews and Nazis share a lot of common values. What would be the point? What good does that do Jewish people?

 

[Elixir]

I love all y’all starry eyed folk, having answered to that description at times.
Experience has tainted my optimism somewhat but I do continue to believe that the vast majority of people would like to think of themselves as kind or good, even as they commit atrocities against nature and mankind. Such folks probably could be salvaged. The ones who want to be thought of as badass, dangerous etc, might be less so.

This is true and applies to all sides.

All sides? There seems to me to be a very lopsided distribution of folk who want to be thought of as dangerous badasses. If you know what I mean.

 

[Toni]

What a lot of conservatives feel is attacked. They heavily feel the contempt that oozes from liberal talking points and tv shows that are so so cool and totally not within the ability of rubes to understand. They feel that their religious faith is under attack, that their way of life: farming, factory work, skilled or unskilled labor is looked down upon. That they are regarded as stupid and uninformed by those who went to college

I don't buy these JD Vance style sob stories. Rural conservatives shit on godless coastal liberal gay degenerate city slickers just as much if not more than the other way around, and somehow the godless coastal liberals manage not to become fascists.

Blaming the left/center for the right's turn toward fascism has got a strong "see what you made me do" quality to it.

Funny because at least one gay man from a small town in a very red midwestern state posts here on this very forum.

Here he is agreeing with me that right-wing rhetoric is far worse:

Split - Conservatives Feel Attacked (was Special Counsel 2)

But what I hear from a lot of my fellow liberals is a lot of unstated fuck your feelings and we college educated people know what’s best for YOU. Wrapped up in a lot of politically correct verbiage, of course. If you think liberals are mean, wait until you hear about what right-wingers say...

iidb.org

Pointing out that people with whom you have extremely sharp political ( philosophical, religious, cultural, generational, etc.) disagreements are actual human beings with while you share common values and much more than you may be comfortable with is not a ‘sob story.’

You are pedaling right-wing victimhood. Right-wingers aren't victims. They are the assholes that perpetuate the social and economic hierarchies from which they benefit (or think they benefit).

Moreover, when you lecture to people on the left about how right-wingers are "actual human beings", you are preaching to the choir. Left-wing politics are by definition egalitarian. Right-wingers are the ones who think inequality is natural and exists because some people are just better than others, e.g. "black people are poorer because they are lazy". So really, right-wingers are the ones you should be lecturing.

Loudly condemning others who hold somewhat different beliefs than you do is straight out of the FOX news playbook.

"somewhat different beliefs"

You are minimizing how destructive fascism is. These assholes tried to overthrow an election, they want to turn women into incubators, they are doing everything possible to make it harder for black people to vote, they are making life hell for lgbt people, they are concentrating more and more wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people, etc, etc...

I mean, what you're doing is like someone in Nazi Germany telling Jewish people that Jews and Nazis share a lot of common values. What would be the point? What good does that do Jewish people?

Nope. You’re projecting in order to justify your stance that anyone who disagrees with you even a little bit is the enemy and is also stupid, provincial, homophobic racism std and misogynists, hypocritical and beneath your notice—which does not prevent you from giving their faults plenty of your attention.

I am guessing that you are too young to actually know people who escaped the Nazis because otherwise your comparison of most conservatives with the Nazis is on par with comparing liberals with China’s Cultural Revolution which still forces abortions on those who are unwilling to abort a child the state thinks they should not bear comes across as willfully ignorant and horribly disrespectful of victims of the Holocaust.

You are equating the conservative views of people you are certain are beneath you with fascism—which seems pretty fascist to me.

You seem to want war so badly: I think you should attempt to join the Peace Corps and spend some time in areas which have suffered and are suffering the horrific effects of war instead of playing hard as behind a keyboard.

 

[Toni]

I love all y’all starry eyed folk, having answered to that description at times.
Experience has tainted my optimism somewhat but I do continue to believe that the vast majority of people would like to think of themselves as kind or good, even as they commit atrocities against nature and mankind. Such folks probably could be salvaged. The ones who want to be thought of as badass, dangerous etc, might be less so.

This is true and applies to all sides.

All sides? There seems to me to be a very lopsided distribution of folk who want to be thought of as dangerous badasses. If you know what I mean.

Really? You are unaware that there are leftist terrorist groups in the US?

I think no one participating on these forums is even approaching the central fringes of far leaning ( any direction) groups in the US.

I do think that there is serious effort to divide the US into Us vs Them along whatever fracture lines can be exploited. It’s not just FOX and Friends. Everyone who insists that all conservatives are ignorant incestuous homophobic racists is helping that cause. And the other way around.

 

[Elixir]

Really? You are unaware that there are leftist terrorist groups in the US?

Really? You think they outnumber the Gravy Seals?

 

[Toni]

Really? You are unaware that there are leftist terrorist groups in the US?

Really? You think they outnumber the Gravy Seals?

You think that there are no leftist terror organizations in the US? And you think that it matters in a moral sense if there are more right wing terrorist groups than left wing terrirists?

There are extremists on both sides, here in the US:

Pushed to Extremes: Domestic Terrorism amid Polarization and Protest

The number of domestic terrorist attacks and plots at demonstrations has increased, resulting in escalating violence in U.S. cities between extremists from opposing sides. This analysis updates a CSIS data set to assess trends in domestic terrorism through December 2021.

www.csis.org

People like to throw out Hitler but they forget that Pol Pot weren’t no slouch when it came to genocide.

 

[Elixir]

You think that there are no leftist terror organizations in the US?

Oh I’m sure there are a few of them. How many can you name? What are their membership numbers? Why, despite Republicans‘ best efforts, cries of “ANTIFA!!!” are all they can come up with for “leftist terrorist organizations”?

Two terrorists make an “organization” and a “leftist” is whoever you say it is. I’m sure that if the Proud Boys moved a little more to the right, they’d be the far left. But they haven’t... yet.
Meanwhile, I suspect that what every single intelligence organization agrees on, is correct: the biggest threat this nation faces is RIGHT wing terrorism.

BTW- I think Hitler was only a mini PolPot when it came to dehumanizing. Totally irrelevant - the Pol Pot Party isn’t running the House of Representatives or running for President. Come to think of it, ANY Pot Party would be better than our republicans.

 

[CosmicJellyfish]

What a lot of conservatives feel is attacked. They heavily feel the contempt that oozes from liberal talking points and tv shows that are so so cool and totally not within the ability of rubes to understand. They feel that their religious faith is under attack, that their way of life: farming, factory work, skilled or unskilled labor is looked down upon. That they are regarded as stupid and uninformed by those who went to college

I don't buy these JD Vance style sob stories. Rural conservatives shit on godless coastal liberal gay degenerate city slickers just as much if not more than the other way around, and somehow the godless coastal liberals manage not to become fascists.

Blaming the left/center for the right's turn toward fascism has got a strong "see what you made me do" quality to it.

Funny because at least one gay man from a small town in a very red midwestern state posts here on this very forum.

Here he is agreeing with me that right-wing rhetoric is far worse:

Split - Conservatives Feel Attacked (was Special Counsel 2)

But what I hear from a lot of my fellow liberals is a lot of unstated fuck your feelings and we college educated people know what’s best for YOU. Wrapped up in a lot of politically correct verbiage, of course. If you think liberals are mean, wait until you hear about what right-wingers say...

iidb.org

Pointing out that people with whom you have extremely sharp political ( philosophical, religious, cultural, generational, etc.) disagreements are actual human beings with while you share common values and much more than you may be comfortable with is not a ‘sob story.’

You are pedaling right-wing victimhood. Right-wingers aren't victims. They are the assholes that perpetuate the social and economic hierarchies from which they benefit (or think they benefit).

Moreover, when you lecture to people on the left about how right-wingers are "actual human beings", you are preaching to the choir. Left-wing politics are by definition egalitarian. Right-wingers are the ones who think inequality is natural and exists because some people are just better than others, e.g. "black people are poorer because they are lazy". So really, right-wingers are the ones you should be lecturing.

Loudly condemning others who hold somewhat different beliefs than you do is straight out of the FOX news playbook.

"somewhat different beliefs"

You are minimizing how destructive fascism is. These assholes tried to overthrow an election, they want to turn women into incubators, they are doing everything possible to make it harder for black people to vote, they are making life hell for lgbt people, they are concentrating more and more wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people, etc, etc...

I mean, what you're doing is like someone in Nazi Germany telling Jewish people that Jews and Nazis share a lot of common values. What would be the point? What good does that do Jewish people?

Nope. You’re projecting in order to justify your stance that anyone who disagrees with you even a little bit is the enemy and is also stupid, provincial, homophobic racism std and misogynists, hypocritical and beneath your notice—which does not prevent you from giving their faults plenty of your attention.

Nonsense. What exactly am I projecting?

I am quite tolerant of a variety of different views and opinions, however, fascism is beyond the pale. MAGA is a fascist movement. And yes, I do think it's fair to call the MAGA movement as a whole stupid, homophobic, racist, and misogynist. I would also add Christian nationalist.

I am guessing that you are too young to actually know people who escaped the Nazis because otherwise your comparison of most conservatives with the Nazis

I differentiate between conservatives and fascists. MAGA is clearly fascist and it is currently the dominant wing of the Republican party. The left wing of the GOP (Romney, Murkowski, Kinzinger and so on) are conservatives. What they have in common is that they all support socioeconomic hierarchy. Where they differ is in how extreme their views are, and how far they're willing to go to establish and perpetuate hierarchy. I'm generally fine with conservatives as they willing to work within a democratic framework, but I do have serious problems with conservatives who have remained with the GOP even after its turn toward fascism. These conservatives have made themselves fascist collaborators. If you are a decent person, you leave your political party when it turns fascist.

is on par with comparing liberals with China’s Cultural Revolution which still forces abortions on those who are unwilling to abort a child the state thinks they should not bear comes across as willfully ignorant and horribly disrespectful of victims of the Holocaust.

You are equating the conservative views of people you are certain are beneath you with fascism—which seems pretty fascist to me.

1. I don't do that, and
2. that's not what fascism is.

If you would like to know what fascism is, some good places to start are The Anatomy of Fascism and Ur Fascsim:

The Anatomy of Fascism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

https://archive.fo/oOTDZ

You seem to want war so badly: I think you should attempt to join the Peace Corps and spend some time in areas which have suffered and are suffering the horrific effects of war instead of playing hard as behind a keyboard.

I don't want war. They have more guns. I'm just tired of bothsidesing and false equivalence and I want people to understand that fascism is real and it still exists, and the fact that fascists stopped calling themselves fascists doesn't mean they are no longer a threat.

 

[Toni]

You think that there are no leftist terror organizations in the US?

Oh I’m sure there are a few of them. How many can you name? What are their membership numbers? Why, despite Republicans‘ best efforts, cries of “ANTIFA!!!” are all they can come up with for “leftist terrorist organizations”?

Two terrorists make an “organization” and a “leftist” is whoever you say it is. I’m sure that if the Proud Boys moved a little more to the right, they’d be the far left. But they haven’t... yet.
Meanwhile, I suspect that what every single intelligence organization agrees on, is correct: the biggest threat this nation faces is RIGHT wing terrorism.

BTW- I think Hitler was only a mini PolPot when it came to dehumanizing. Totally irrelevant - the Pol Pot Party isn’t running the House of Representatives or running for President. Come to think of it, ANY Pot Party would be better than our republicans.

Try reading the article I linked. I was surprised.

Seriously, we’re arguing on whether all conservatives are subhuman?

What is your plan? Some ideology test and those who fail are sent to camps? Whether they are ‘work’ or ‘re-education’ camps makes much less difference than some here seem to believe. Genocide is genocide.