Split Conservatives Feel Attacked (was Special Counsel 2)

[Toni]

So: rural and small town people are stupid.

Don’t put words in my mouth, please.
I AM “small town people”.
There are stupid people in cities as well.
Even the “smart” people in cities are stupid/ignorant about diagnosing and treating colic in a horse. Thing is, that doesn’t particularly effect the rest of us, whereas the stupidity/ignorance of the rural Trumpsucker is dangerous to every one of us. Your equivocation is falling flat.

I am eager to seek common ground with conservatives. Trumpsuckers whose pride and identity are inextricably bound to a career criminal rapist mobster traitor? Not so much. Such folks are in too deep to EVER let go of their neurotic fixation.
Yeah - I am writing them off, for the time being.

Urban people make all sorts of decisions that negatively affect rural people-and ultimately, everyone. Because people.

Inextricably and for now are at odds. I’m glad to read the for now.

Because I’ve had to, I try very hard to separate individuals from their political allegiance. It isn’t just for conservatives. I know some very insufferable liberals, as well.

 

[Toni]

A good example of what I’m talking about is when Republicans were polled on the individual contents of the Affordable Care Act they were largely supportive of it. However, they were vehemently against Obamacare.

So common ground is there, it is just politically unattainable. And it can’t be the sole responsibility of one side to seek or
Concede their values to attain that common ground.

If you choose not to think rationally don’t expect to find rational solution

I think it has been politically unattainable, I have hopes for the future if we keep looking for and pushing for common ground.

 

[Shadowy Man]

A good example of what I’m talking about is when Republicans were polled on the individual contents of the Affordable Care Act they were largely supportive of it. However, they were vehemently against Obamacare.

So common ground is there, it is just politically unattainable. And it can’t be the sole responsibility of one side to seek or
Concede their values to attain that common ground.

If you choose not to think rationally don’t expect to find rational solution

I think it has been politically unattainable, I have hopes for the future if we keep looking for and pushing for common ground.

And where do you see Republicans’ best efforts to seek common ground?

It’s hard to see. When the statistics as mentioned above is so high that they feel the election was stolen it’s going to be very difficult. Are they even trying.

 

[marc]

There is common ground. When polls are done on actual policies, worded in a way that separates them from party talking points and labels, things like gun background checks and universal health care actually are popular. The problem is the republican party spent decades telling people not to trust the news, getting them to live in an information bubble disconnected from reality. It is hard to reach common ground with people who are essentially in a political cult, trained to not believe anyone who isn't in the cult. Of course the democratic party leaders don't help things much when they suck at messaging, and on economic issues they tend to be republican-lite. They have common ground with the republican party, but mostly in the pro-business-screw-everyone-else areas. The non-right-wing media also doesn't help in that they give cover to the pro-business policies, and care more about ratings from fake controversies and conflicts, than the work of covering actual policy differences.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So: rural and small town people are stupid.

Don’t put words in my mouth, please.
I AM “small town people”.
There are stupid people in cities as well.
Even the “smart” people in cities are stupid/ignorant about diagnosing and treating colic in a horse. Thing is, that doesn’t particularly effect the rest of us, whereas the stupidity/ignorance of the rural Trumpsucker is dangerous to every one of us. Your equivocation is falling flat.

I am eager to seek common ground with conservatives. Trumpsuckers whose pride and identity are inextricably bound to a career criminal rapist mobster traitor? Not so much. Such folks are in too deep to EVER let go of their neurotic fixation.
Yeah - I am writing them off, for the time being.

Urban people make all sorts of decisions that negatively affect rural people-and ultimately, everyone. Because people.

Inextricably and for now are at odds. I’m glad to read the for now.

Because I’ve had to, I try very hard to separate individuals from their political allegiance. It isn’t just for conservatives. I know some very insufferable liberals, as well.

I praise your ability to do this. The election of Trump was rough, but the hyper-partisan response to Covid-19... I can't take some people seriously after that. Their absolute allegiance to self-interest, and what they were willing to willfully ignore indicated to me they were too far gone. Some of these people were so hyper-partisan, they literally died as a direct consequence of it. You aim to seek common ground, while their politics are a mutated derivative of the Southern Strategy, which sought to divide.

 

[Elixir]

About half of those that think the 2020 was illegitimate... don't think there is any evidence to demonstrate that is true. They are pragmatic to admit there is no evidence, but apparently hyper-partisan enough to toss caution to the wind and just presume illegitimacy based on a hunch.

You say “hyper-partisan”, and everyone knows what you mean. But I don’t think garden variety hyper-partisanship is what’s happening when they blatantly eschew reason. Those people may be - should be, imo - written out of political consideration. They don’t respond to facts, so you will only find common ground if you legitimize the falsehoods to which they have inextricably tied their very identity.
Let us put the era of the post-truth presidency behind us, and then look to bring them back into the process.
Toni can scream about “elitism” til she’s blue in the face, and it won’t make me want to coddle subscribers to lies. Actually, accusations of elitism are the penultimate irony to me. I have made the conscious choice to live with those on the fringes; not quite the diametric opposite of “elites”, but pretty close.

 

[Elixir]

Inextricably and for now are at odds. I’m glad to read the for now.

My intent was to convey “inextricably, for now”. I think many will return to relative sanity once the golden calf is purged from the barn.

Because I’ve had to, I try very hard to separate individuals from their political allegiance. It isn’t just for conservatives. I know some very insufferable liberals, as well.

I can suffer insufferable. It’s dangerous that I don’t tolerate. Yes, I make my own calls about what’s dangerous.

 

[CosmicJellyfish]

if we keep looking for and pushing for common ground.

What does this even mean? What exactly does this entail? How does one go about applying this to the real world? You keep saying this, and it just looks like a vapid bromide to me. How does "looking for and pushing for common ground" stop them from taking away women's bodily autonomy, disenfranchising black people, and making life hell for gay and trans people?

 

[TomC]

if we keep looking for and pushing for common ground.

What does this even mean? What exactly does this entail? How does one go about applying this to the real world? You keep saying this, and it just looks like a vapid bromide to me. How does "looking for and pushing for common ground" stop them from taking away women's bodily autonomy, disenfranchising black people, and making life hell for gay and trans people?

Or, for that matter, cheering on the hostile takeover of SCOTUS, insurrection, and attacking the Justice system for holding Trump to account for criminal behavior up to and including espionage.
Tom

 

[Toni]

Inextricably and for now are at odds. I’m glad to read the for now.

My intent was to convey “inextricably, for now”. I think many will return to relative sanity once the golden calf is purged from the barn.

Because I’ve had to, I try very hard to separate individuals from their political allegiance. It isn’t just for conservatives. I know some very insufferable liberals, as well.

I can suffer insufferable. It’s dangerous that I don’t tolerate. Yes, I make my own calls about what’s dangerous.

Me, too.

 

[Toni]

So: rural and small town people are stupid.

Don’t put words in my mouth, please.
I AM “small town people”.
There are stupid people in cities as well.
Even the “smart” people in cities are stupid/ignorant about diagnosing and treating colic in a horse. Thing is, that doesn’t particularly effect the rest of us, whereas the stupidity/ignorance of the rural Trumpsucker is dangerous to every one of us. Your equivocation is falling flat.

I am eager to seek common ground with conservatives. Trumpsuckers whose pride and identity are inextricably bound to a career criminal rapist mobster traitor? Not so much. Such folks are in too deep to EVER let go of their neurotic fixation.
Yeah - I am writing them off, for the time being.

Urban people make all sorts of decisions that negatively affect rural people-and ultimately, everyone. Because people.

Inextricably and for now are at odds. I’m glad to read the for now.

Because I’ve had to, I try very hard to separate individuals from their political allegiance. It isn’t just for conservatives. I know some very insufferable liberals, as well.

I praise your ability to do this. The election of Trump was rough, but the hyper-partisan response to Covid-19... I can't take some people seriously after that. Their absolute allegiance to self-interest, and what they were willing to willfully ignore indicated to me they were too far gone. Some of these people were so hyper-partisan, they literally died as a direct consequence of it. You aim to seek common ground, while their politics are a mutated derivative of the Southern Strategy, which sought to divide.

A strategy to divide has been renewed and still thrives. I’m trying to stand against that.

I have at least one distant relative who died from COVID, caught while attending the funeral of someone who…died from COVID, not someone I had seen in…decades. I liked his parents but he was a dumb shit. So yeah.

I won’t lie: I don’t know that my relationship with my father would have survived Obama’s presidency, much less Trump’s. I’m sorry he’s gone but I’m not sorry we missed those tests…

 

[Elixir]

if we keep looking for and pushing for common ground.

What does this even mean? What exactly does this entail? How does one go about applying this to the real world? You keep saying this, and it just looks like a vapid bromide to me. How does "looking for and pushing for common ground" stop them from taking away women's bodily autonomy, disenfranchising black people, and making life hell for gay and trans people?

Or, for that matter, cheering on the hostile takeover of SCOTUS, insurrection, and attacking the Justice system for holding Trump to account for criminal behavior up to and including espionage.
Tom

“If we keep looking for and pushing for common ground” is more than a bromide I think (hope). It could be a behavioral prescription for avoiding becoming what we bemoan - which is what Toni seems to warn us of.
My feeling is that common ground is something the right detests, regardless of what it might be. Even if it’s ground traditionally staked out by conservatives. But I guess that should not deter us from seeking it for our own sakes, if not for theirs. At least we can sleep soundly knowing we tried to find some use for the reactionary trumpsuckers …

 

[Toni]

Honestly, if you want a complacent, content enough population, make sure they have access to good jobs, affordable housing abd health care and day care and good educational opportunities for their families. And roads in decent shape, clean air and water. In other words, security, with hope for the future.

yes, and both rural people and urban people should want this and they should be United in their desire to have political candidates who address these things. And yet it seems that the majority of Republicans are not thinking this way.

I’m quite happy to consider the reasoned political opinions of those whose values may differ from mine but I almost never hear that from the right. Perhaps that is media bias at play, and the voices of those who are reasonable are getting drowned out.

I think a lot of it is the voices that get amplified by media.

But honestly I wasn’t talking about listening to and respecting or agreeing with formulated political opinion, per se. I was really just talking about looking fir common, shared values,

I’d be happy to look for common, shared values because I agree with you that we all likely have a lot of them. However, how can I take seriously people who elect Marjorie Taylor Greene and her ilk into power? If you want to ding common ground with me you will have to use your brain in a logical, intellectual manner. I do feel sorry for those who have been poisoned by corrupt media like Fox News. They’ve been swindled and I hope that some day they can get over that but at some point you have to take responsibility for your own political views. And it’s not just a vocal minority. Many, many Republicans think the 2020 election was rigged, not just the crazy ones.

Heh. I think it was a little rugged, as well. Or an attempt was made…Just not in the same direction.

 

[Toni]

A good example of what I’m talking about is when Republicans were polled on the individual contents of the Affordable Care Act they were largely supportive of it. However, they were vehemently against Obamacare.

So common ground is there, it is just politically unattainable. And it can’t be the sole responsibility of one side to seek or
Concede their values to attain that common ground.

If you choose not to think rationally don’t expect to find rational solution

I think it has been politically unattainable, I have hopes for the future if we keep looking for and pushing for common ground.

And where do you see Republicans’ best efforts to seek common ground?

It’s hard to see. When the statistics as mentioned above is so high that they feel the election was stolen it’s going to be very difficult. Are they even trying.

I don’t really care if radical conservatives are making the effort I think we ALL should make. I won’t keep pushing for that and making the effort myself just because someone else isn’t making the same effort,

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I don’t really care if radical conservatives are making the effort I think we ALL should make.

Are you saying that you don't care that such a large percentage of conservatives actually believe Trump won the 2020 election? If that's what you are saying How do I reciprocate?

 

[TomC]

I don’t really care if radical conservatives are making the effort I think we ALL should make. I won’t keep pushing for that and making the effort myself just because someone else isn’t making the same effort,

But what I'm seeing in the real world is a bunch of leftist peacenik Democrats carrying signs while the conservative TeaParty Republicans stock up on guns and ammo.
Tom

 

[Elixir]

I think it was a little rugged, as well. Or an attempt was made…Just not in the same direction.

If you think 2020 was a little rugged, wait til you see how rugged the fascists make it in ‘24.

If we don’t hold firm and put down the Trumpsucking right in the next election, American elections will most likely be “rugged” forever more.

 

[Toni]

I don’t really care if radical conservatives are making the effort I think we ALL should make.

Are you saying that you don't care that such a large percentage of conservatives actually believe Trump won the 2020 election? If that's what you are saying How do I reciprocate?

What I mean is: The fact that other people are in the wrong does not relieve me of my duty to do what I believe to be right.

For me, that means that I keep looking for common ground and build bridges/strengthen bonds—and work hard for progressive values. Vote! Donate to campaigns! Support causes I believe in!

I think it’s a mistake to let the people who piss us off or repulse us stop us from doing our best to do what is right— and to be as good an example of well reasoned, thoughtful, considerate and caring people with the highest values. I’m not advocating writing people off so much as I am advocating for dragging them along If we have to buy trying hard to convince them we are right. Which means smiles in our faces, shirt sleeves rolled up and refusing to look fiwn our noses at people with whom we disagree.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I don’t really care if radical conservatives are making the effort I think we ALL should make.

Are you saying that you don't care that such a large percentage of conservatives actually believe Trump won the 2020 election? If that's what you are saying How do I reciprocate?

What I mean is: The fact that other people are in the wrong does not relieve me of my duty to do what I believe to be right.

For me, that means that I keep looking for common ground and build bridges/strengthen bonds—and work hard for progressive values. Vote! Donate to campaigns! Support causes I believe in!

I think it’s a mistake to let the people who piss us off or repulse us stop us from doing our best to do what is right— and to be as good an example of well reasoned, thoughtful, considerate and caring people with the highest values. I’m not advocating writing people off so much as I am advocating for dragging them along If we have to buy trying hard to convince them we are right. Which means smiles in our faces, shirt sleeves rolled up and refusing to look fiwn our noses at people with whom we disagree.

I would agree with all of that, which includes calling a spade a spade when it's a spade.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Loren, I know liberals think they want people to be able to make their own decisions, but that’s only true when they agree with the decisions being made.

In some places, so called blue laws meant that a lot of businesses could only operate on Sundays starting at noon so as not to interfere with church services. Some businesses simply were closed on Sundays. . A lot of people protested those laws. But when such laws were repealed, a lot of people protested because that eliminated the one day they could count on as ‘family time.’ In the name of freedom from unwarranted religious control, people lost time they could count in to spend time as families as more people had to work on Sundays.

Decisions have consequences. Some dislike the blue laws going away. Nobody's making a business be open on Sunday.