Florida Education Department Rewrites History

[Derec]

I'm shocked you view the 1619 Project as a leftist political idea. Shocked!

I am shocked (legit, not sarcastic) that anybody believes that it is not a left wing project.
The founder Nikole Hannah-Jones is a leftist and a big supporter of reparations.
Hardly surprising then that one of the thing 1619 Project does is push "reparations math" on school systems where kids are supposed to calculate how much money black people should be given.

Nobody needs the 1619 project to learn that slavery was an integral & deeply consequential aspect of American history. Its indelible mark is felt even today, manifesting in both conspicuous and subtle forms across the United States.

Nobody denies that it wasn't a big part of US history. We did not need this project or NHJ to tell us that. But it is ludicrous to say that 1619 marked the "true" founding of US or that the American Revolution was fought to preserve slavery.

Irrespective of our discussions concerning its portrayal in schools, slavery constitutes an integral part of American history, and in fact all of our own personal heritages across the entire globe. Surely, you wouldn't categorize that as an exclusively left-wing political notion, would you?

It is the left that is keeping it alive by continuing to divide us by race with things like supporting race-based college admissions or insisting that white people are inherently "oppressors".

 

[Derec]

So anyway... there is nothing in the new curriculum about teaching "both siders" of Holocaust, right? Right?!?!

Of course not.
How does that justify politicizing education from right or from left?

One thing is whitewashing an atrocity of our history which must not be forgotten for the convenience of a bunch of white people who haven't gotten over losing the Civil War! Christ, imagine if Europe was like this!

I am not for for "whitewashing" but what the Left is doing is just as bad. Overemphasizing it, insisting that what happened in the past justifies discriminating in favor of blacks today, insisting that white people bear some sort of "original sin" due to out whiteness etc.

The other involves sometimes overstepping social commentary into other subjects.

I.e. pushing leftist politics in math class.

These two things, they aren't remotely similar. I've yet to see a math problem in my Daughter's work that was bothersome.

What state do you live in?

 

[Derec]

The 1619 Project is hardly leftist.

How is it not?

Even as an ignorant school girl, I knew that the virtually all male/all white history we were taught was so incomplete as to be a lie. I’m glad that a more complete history is now being taught in some places.

This is not "complete history". It's skewed from the other direction, and most troubling, it is specifically designed to indoctrinate kids in classes like math.

 

[Toni]

The 1619 Project is hardly leftist.

How is it not?

Even as an ignorant school girl, I knew that the virtually all male/all white history we were taught was so incomplete as to be a lie. I’m glad that a more complete history is now being taught in some places.

This is not "complete history". It's skewed from the other direction, and most troubling, it is specifically designed to indoctrinate kids in classes like math.

You did not answer: How is it ‘leftist’ to present an accurate account of slavery in the United States?

History as I was taught it was so cursory as to be very nearly all lie, something that was obvious to me. History has been told by the victors, to their great advantage and to preserve their status. Isn’t it time to hear actual truth, including the ugly bits?

 

[laughing dog]

A whataboutism is irrelevant to the discussion on what is happening in Florida.

It is not. They are two sides of the same coin.

The discussion is about one side of the coin.

The notion that education does not involve "political indoctrination" is naive.

So you and bilby should have no problem with what Florida is doing then?

Recognition that education cannot be politically neutral does not imply endorsement of a particular political agenda.

Since education involves making choices on what to include and omit in the curriculum, as well as how to teach and what examples to use, education is inherently "political indoctrination" as that term is currently used.

Not necessarily. One can choose what to include and what to omit without pushing a political agenda.

Nope.

 

[Ford]

DeSantis' latest defense is basically "hey, this isn't me...this all came from scholars." In fact, he said (of the Department of Education):

You know, they got a lot of scholars together to do a lot of standards and a lot of different things.

Because it wasn't us. It was the black people! They signed off on this!

Now I'm going to tell you the least surprising news of the day: The number of black people on the Florida Board of Education. Do I even need to say it?

Yep

 

[Politesse]

Hardly surprising then that one of the thing 1619 Project does is push "reparations math" on school systems where kids are supposed to calculate how much money black people should be given.

By which you mean that an interdisciplinary teacher cohort in Massachusetts, partially inspired by the 1619 project, suggested a 3 week sample curriculum in which math skills are applied to the reparations question.

Why would that be an inappropriate use of math skills? Is the idea that you believe we shouldn't use mathematics when discussing issues like wage gaps? Is "guestimating" the value of a person's work the only way one can talk about wages, labor rights, reparations, etc while remaining true to right wing values?

Are you arguing that any of the specific math skills taught with the curriculum are somehow "leftist"? Is it "woke" to know the difference between linear and exponential functions, for instance? Or what periodicity is? Will I turn into a communist if I teach my kid what an intercept is?

The so called right wing would turn us all into ignorant fools given the chance, I know, but why should any parent would want that fate for the child I do not understand. There's nothing "traditional" or valuable about destroying American public education in favor of your stupid political agenda.

 

[Toni]

The 1619 Project is hardly leftist.

How is it not?

Even as an ignorant school girl, I knew that the virtually all male/all white history we were taught was so incomplete as to be a lie. I’m glad that a more complete history is now being taught in some places.

This is not "complete history". It's skewed from the other direction, and most troubling, it is specifically designed to indoctrinate kids in classes like math.

How do you think the 1619 Project is skewed?

 

[Toni]

Hardly surprising then that one of the thing 1619 Project does is push "reparations math" on school systems where kids are supposed to calculate how much money black people should be given.

By which you mean that an interdisciplinary teacher cohort in Massachusetts, partially inspired by the 1619 project, suggested a 3 week sample curriculum in which math skills are applied to the reparations question.

Why would that be an inappropriate use of math skills? Is the idea that you believe we shouldn't use mathematics when discussing issues like wage gaps? Is "guestimating" the value of a person's work the only way one can talk about wages, labor rights, reparations, etc while remaining true to right wing values?

Are you arguing that any of the specific math skills taught with the curriculum are somehow "leftist"? Is it "woke" to know the difference between linear and exponential functions, for instance? Or what periodicity is? Will I turn into a communist if I teach my kid what an intercept is?

The right wing would turn us all into ignorant fools given the chance, I know, but why should any parent would want that fate for the child I do not understand.

I will say that I think that asking children to use their math skills towards solving the issuer of reparations, something that adults cannot even really wrap their heads around, is perhaps not appropriate, at least below junior and senior level students.

Or perhaps that is just me. I have a difficult time even conceptualizing how to attach a dollar amount to the cost of a human being, whose worth is, to me, incalculable.

However, it is urgent that we, as a nation, and as individuals, fully confront how we allowed the enslavement of people who were kidnapped, and shipped thousands of miles away from their families, and then treated even more brutally for the rest of their lives, and the lives of their children, their children’s children for generations, for hundreds of years, taking their lives and stealing their labor, their children, their lives, for the enrichment of white people. And likewise to confront that we invaded the lands of people living on this continent, murdered and raped and even sometimes enslaved those people, stole their lands, deliberately conducted genocidal policies against them—because we wanted their land. And how we treated Chinese and Japanese people. How we refused to accept Jewish people during WWII. And more.

 

[Politesse]

I will say that I think that asking children to use their math skills towards solving the issuer of reparations, something that adults cannot even really wrap their heads around, is perhaps not appropriate, at least below junior and senior level students.

Why not? And why junior level in particular?

Is the idea that you want black kids to be already involved in the labor market before they ever hear about the wage gap issue, ergo it would not be approporiate for them to find out about until they are already eligible to work? I mean, why junior level? Did you just pick that year arbitrarily as "feels old enough"? I don't see any good reason why a student capable of understanding the mathematical and historical concepts involved should be prevented from doing so until some arbitrary age gap is reached.

Perhaps adults like yourself would not be "unable to wrap their heads around" the issue of reparations had they learned about it in school.

 

[Toni]

I will say that I think that asking children to use their math skills towards solving the issuer of reparations, something that adults cannot even really wrap their heads around, is perhaps not appropriate, at least below junior and senior level students.

Why not? And why junior level in particular?

Is the idea that you want black kids to be already involved in the labor market before they ever hear about the wage gap issue, ergo it would not be approporiate for them to find out about until they are already eligible to work? I mean, why junior level? Did you just pick that year arbitrarily as "feels old enough"? I don't see any good reason why a student capable of understanding the mathematical and historical concepts involved should be prevented from doing so until some arbitrary age gap is reached.

Perhaps adults like yourself would not be "unable to wrap their heads around" the issue of reparations had they learned about it in school.

When I wrote junior or senior I was not thinking of black kids or white kids but about the maturity level ( and ability to think for themselves, independently and draw their own conclusions —side bar: I assume their conclusions would be to be as angry, horrified, and disgusted as I am but having raised teenagers, I hate to think of that mixed in with teen hormones without some years to adjust to the circumstances of their own lives enough to be able to have some…inkling if the horror of slavery) and math skill, base of knowledge with respect to history, sociology and I’d love to write economics but I know that’s a pipe dream —I’ve seen what passes for economics in high school.

I don’t want it to just be math problems. I want them to be old enough to be a little bit able to step outside of their own lives/experiences and to have some empathy and at the same time, have the emotional wherewithal to be able to objectively calculate a math problem whose basis, in fact, is an obscenity. Slavery is an obscenity. Buying and selling people is an obscenity. Forced pregnancy is an obscenity. Rape is an obscenity. Treating people like livestock you can fuck or just as livestock is an obscenity. Taking children from their parents is an obscenity. Beating people, branding people, everything associated with slavery is an obscenity. It’s all obscenity. Yeah, I’m concerned with how much detail is provided in lessons and at what grade levels.

A first grader, 6 or 7 years old, is old enough to be taught that for part of the history of this country, black people were treated as property, with less love and care than their own puppies and kittens, and made to work and were not paid for it. I do not think that they need to calculate the value of the labor produced by a 6 year old enslaved child who had been taken from her mother and given, like a pet, to the Little Miss of the owner. And worse as they grew older.

My personal views of teenagers and work? Extremely limited hours, extremely carefully selected workplaces where the kids will still be able to focus primarily on their school work, and not have to deal with the kinds of exploitation I’ve observed. I know good and well that many, many kids do not get these protections but we damn well need to create a society where those are the circumstances under which ALL minors are allowed to be employed. Families should not have to rely on the paid labor of their kids to be housed and fed.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Hardly surprising then that one of the thing 1619 Project does is push "reparations math" on school systems where kids are supposed to calculate how much money black people should be given.

By which you mean that an interdisciplinary teacher cohort in Massachusetts, partially inspired by the 1619 project, suggested a 3 week sample curriculum in which math skills are applied to the reparations question.

Why would that be an inappropriate use of math skills? Is the idea that you believe we shouldn't use mathematics when discussing issues like wage gaps? Is "guestimating" the value of a person's work the only way one can talk about wages, labor rights, reparations, etc while remaining true to right wing values?

Are you arguing that any of the specific math skills taught with the curriculum are somehow "leftist"? Is it "woke" to know the difference between linear and exponential functions, for instance? Or what periodicity is? Will I turn into a communist if I teach my kid what an intercept is?

The right wing would turn us all into ignorant fools given the chance, I know, but why should any parent would want that fate for the child I do not understand.

I will say that I think that asking children to use their math skills towards solving the issuer of reparations, something that adults cannot even really wrap their heads around, is perhaps not appropriate, at least below junior and senior level students.

Or perhaps that is just me. I have a difficult time even conceptualizing how to attach a dollar amount to the cost of a human being, whose worth is, to me, incalculable.

It'd be interesting, the trouble is there is no value that can be remedied, so then you move on to the next step. I think it can be done and would be a remarkable exercise in engineering, mathematics, and sociology if the right people worked on it. Not only would it be left-wing liberalism, it would be right-wing economic. The benefit of goods over money or visa versa.

IE, what would be the best way to fix it and then tackle how do you fulfill it? The problem is, it'd be a Stardew Valley like program that requires a number of economic, accounting, engineering, historian aspects to plug into the puzzle. But then we'd get the alt-righters whining about how it isn't fair to even teach that much. The alt-righters are suffocating our schools. Maybe we need to hold a massive drag show reading program to distract them.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The 1619 Project is hardly leftist.

How is it not?

Even as an ignorant school girl, I knew that the virtually all male/all white history we were taught was so incomplete as to be a lie. I’m glad that a more complete history is now being taught in some places.

This is not "complete history". It's skewed from the other direction, and most troubling, it is specifically designed to indoctrinate kids in classes like math.

That isn't even a valid accusation. It isn't even rising to the standard of baseless and vague. Care to actually mention the curricula (several examples) and where it is "skewed"? I am fatigued (well, there is another word for it and it has been for decades) over people whining about education programs they are wholly and utterly uninformed on.

So please, where is all this skewed history being taught and what is being taught.

 

[Shadowy Man]

However, it is urgent that we, as a nation, and as individuals, fully confront how we allowed the enslavement of people who were kidnapped, and shipped thousands of miles away from their families, and then treated even more brutally for the rest of their lives, and the lives of their children, their children’s children for generations, for hundreds of years, taking their lives and stealing their labor, their children, their lives, for the enrichment of white people. And likewise to confront that we invaded the lands of people living on this continent, murdered and raped and even sometimes enslaved those people, stole their lands, deliberately conducted genocidal policies against them—because we wanted their land. And how we treated Chinese and Japanese people. How we refused to accept Jewish people during WWII. And more.

Who do you suppose the “we” is in this paragraph? Does it include the people being deliberately mistreated? Does a white Jewish American person who descended from Jews who were refused to be accepted during WWII among those who need to come to terms with the history?

 

[Politesse]

Care to actually mention the curricula (several examples) and where it is "skewed"? I

There are no "several examples", just the one model curriculum linked in my post above. It isn't hard to find, or read. Not too many big people words, so everyone here should be able to follow it unless they've forgotten how to do the math parts. Here it is again.

 

[laughing dog]

However, it is urgent that we, as a nation, and as individuals, fully confront how we allowed the enslavement of people who were kidnapped, and shipped thousands of miles away from their families, and then treated even more brutally for the rest of their lives, and the lives of their children, their children’s children for generations, for hundreds of years, taking their lives and stealing their labor, their children, their lives, for the enrichment of white people. And likewise to confront that we invaded the lands of people living on this continent, murdered and raped and even sometimes enslaved those people, stole their lands, deliberately conducted genocidal policies against them—because we wanted their land. And how we treated Chinese and Japanese people. How we refused to accept Jewish people during WWII. And more.

Who do you suppose the “we” is in this paragraph? Does it include the people being deliberately mistreated? Does a white Jewish American person who descended from Jews who were refused to be accepted during WWII among those who need to come to terms with the history?

Depending on the person’s emotional makeup, they may need to come to terms with that ignoble part of history.

I know that after I learned some of my grandfather’s family were killed by the Nazis for being Jewish, it took me a long time to come to terms with that past.

 

[Toni]

However, it is urgent that we, as a nation, and as individuals, fully confront how we allowed the enslavement of people who were kidnapped, and shipped thousands of miles away from their families, and then treated even more brutally for the rest of their lives, and the lives of their children, their children’s children for generations, for hundreds of years, taking their lives and stealing their labor, their children, their lives, for the enrichment of white people. And likewise to confront that we invaded the lands of people living on this continent, murdered and raped and even sometimes enslaved those people, stole their lands, deliberately conducted genocidal policies against them—because we wanted their land. And how we treated Chinese and Japanese people. How we refused to accept Jewish people during WWII. And more.

Who do you suppose the “we” is in this paragraph? Does it include the people being deliberately mistreated? Does a white Jewish American person who descended from Jews who were refused to be accepted during WWII among those who need to come to terms with the history?

Sure. I think that is important that every student hear, as indisputable fact, that people in power, mostly but not entirely people whose ancestors were from Great Britain, France, Germany and mostly but not exclusively northern and Western Europe treated other people horrifically, including people from African nations, Various parts of Asia, and people of different religious traditions and heritages. Of course at various times and to lesser degrees this included Jewish and Catholic people, the Irish and the Italians. And that this was absolutely horribly and incontrovertibly wrong.

It would be good if everyone learned tgat treating any out-group was wrong because, of course, schools are rude with in groups and out groups and stereotypes because that’s what immature, insecure people do—no matter their age. And it’s wrong.

 

[Toni]

However, it is urgent that we, as a nation, and as individuals, fully confront how we allowed the enslavement of people who were kidnapped, and shipped thousands of miles away from their families, and then treated even more brutally for the rest of their lives, and the lives of their children, their children’s children for generations, for hundreds of years, taking their lives and stealing their labor, their children, their lives, for the enrichment of white people. And likewise to confront that we invaded the lands of people living on this continent, murdered and raped and even sometimes enslaved those people, stole their lands, deliberately conducted genocidal policies against them—because we wanted their land. And how we treated Chinese and Japanese people. How we refused to accept Jewish people during WWII. And more.

Who do you suppose the “we” is in this paragraph? Does it include the people being deliberately mistreated? Does a white Jewish American person who descended from Jews who were refused to be accepted during WWII among those who need to come to terms with the history?

Depending on the person’s emotional makeup, they may need to come to terms with that ignoble part of history.

I know that after I learned some of my grandfather’s family were killed by the Nazis for being Jewish, it took me a long time to come to terms with that past.

We ALL need to come to terms with the ignoble parts of history. Some will handle it better than others. Some will be in total denial. They need to get over that.

Do you remember when you first figured out that your parents were mere humans and flawed ones at that? Most of us are able to process that and to recognize the limitations of our parents, their upbringings and histories and to recognize the ways in which they overcame some of those limitations to become better people. Hopefully there is a lot to admire and respect despite the flaws. Hopefully we are inspired towards forgiveness, self-reflection and motivated to do better. You know: grow up.

As I see it, history is just an enormously bigger version of that. But then I’m no historian…

 

[Shadowy Man]

But when you say “we” need to confront how “we” allowed the enslavement of people’s does that include the enslaved? Did they allow it, too? Are they part of the “we” in that clause?

 

[Toni]

But when you say “we” need to confront how “we” allowed the enslavement of people’s does that include the enslaved? Did they allow it, too? Are they part of the “we” in that clause?

Wow. I’m certain there are plenty of nits you can pick to put into a little matchbox and take to the next debate club meeting.

Do you think that there should be separate but equal history curricula for white students and for non-white students?

Do you think that every sentence I write must be prefaced with my pronouns, marital status and exact shade of my skin( corrected for season of the year)? Am I aware that some African people sold other African people? Is that your point? Do I think that makes those Africans or their descendants responsible for slavery in the US? Or partially responsible?

I’m just talking to other people here, not writing my thesis and not footnoting it all.

Pick away all you want. I’m of the opinion that history needs to be taught to all students at a grade level appropriate way abd that care needs to be taken to ensure that students are not overwhelmed by the atrocities that have been committed, right alongside the noble deeds and sometimes, mistaken for a noble deed.

I see no point nor intention of making anyone feel guilty for what their ancestors may or may not have done. That is not the purpose of history. The purpose of history, as I see it, is to help us understand how our society got to be the way that it is today—good and bad—and to understand it well enough to avoid repeating the bad and trying to continue with the good.

But that’s just me, typing letters, on my phone at the moment, getting ready to go out and to pull more weeds.