Is it time to finally move on from "Stopping Climate Change" and instead work on mitigating it?

[Shadowy Man]

Carbon taxes are the answer according to Elon Musk and he is correct (as usual). Make everyone pay the real cost of fuel (whatever that fuel is), the cost of production PLUS the cost of damage to the environment. Climate change has been figured out and resolved for you Jimmy!

That doesn't solve the increase in temperature problem, nor the unstoppable acceleration. That's why Elon Musk is working on spaceships for the wealthy elite to eventually escape the hell hole they've created. So basically, can't stop it, so mitigate it. But then can't mitigate it, so run away. But get paid doing it. That guy's a genius!

There’s nowhere that Elon Musk can take the ultra-elite where life would be easier for them than here on Earth. At least not for a few generations. Despite global climate change the elite will manage to find ways to make themselves comfortable for quite some time.

 

[TomC]

Carbon taxes are the answer according to Elon Musk and he is correct (as usual). Make everyone pay the real cost of fuel (whatever that fuel is), the cost of production PLUS the cost of damage to the environment. Climate change has been figured out and resolved for you Jimmy!

That doesn't solve the increase in temperature problem, nor the unstoppable acceleration. That's why Elon Musk is working on spaceships for the wealthy elite to eventually escape the hell hole they've created. So basically, can't stop it, so mitigate it. But then can't mitigate it, so run away. But get paid doing it. That guy's a genius!

There’s nowhere that Elon Musk can take the ultra-elite where life would be easier for them than here on Earth. At least not for a few generations. Despite global climate change the elite will manage to find ways to make themselves comfortable for quite some time.

This is why I find manned space flight immoral. And extraplanetary communities profoundly immoral.

If we've got the technology and resources to keep one person alive on a space station, we can keep a thousand people alive on earth. If we can keep one person alive on the moon, we could keep a million people alive on earth. If we could keep one person alive on Mars, probably closer to a hundred million earth humans.

Extraterrestrial life, for humans, is the ultimate in gated community. Musk and his billionaire buddies might think that they can escape the human disaster they are causing by immigrating off earth. But they can't. They'll be the same old self indulgent power elite they are here, except that there won't be an peons to do their bidding.
Tom

 

[Shadowy Man]

Carbon taxes are the answer according to Elon Musk and he is correct (as usual). Make everyone pay the real cost of fuel (whatever that fuel is), the cost of production PLUS the cost of damage to the environment. Climate change has been figured out and resolved for you Jimmy!

That doesn't solve the increase in temperature problem, nor the unstoppable acceleration. That's why Elon Musk is working on spaceships for the wealthy elite to eventually escape the hell hole they've created. So basically, can't stop it, so mitigate it. But then can't mitigate it, so run away. But get paid doing it. That guy's a genius!

There’s nowhere that Elon Musk can take the ultra-elite where life would be easier for them than here on Earth. At least not for a few generations. Despite global climate change the elite will manage to find ways to make themselves comfortable for quite some time.

This is why I find manned space flight immoral. And extraplanetary communities profoundly immoral.

If we've got the technology and resources to keep one person alive on a space station, we can keep a thousand people alive on earth. If we can keep one person alive on the moon, we could keep a million people alive on earth. If we could keep one person alive on Mars, probably closer to a hundred million earth humans.

Extraterrestrial life, for humans, is the ultimate in gated community. Musk and his billionaire buddies might think that they can escape the human disaster they are causing by immigrating off earth. But they can't. They'll be the same old self indulgent power elite they are here, except that there won't be an peons to do their bidding.
Tom

For the cost of going to another planet to live a miserable life in space suits with terrible food and losing bone density they could live extremely lavish lives in Earth. It makes no sense.

 

[Politesse]

As human beings continue to substitute sustainability for cost savings and convenience, I ponder whether it is time for the UN to stop trying to limit climate change. China is kind of giving up already. I mean, they are going to address it, but it'll take a while.

China would pursue its commitments “unswervingly,” but the pace of such efforts “should and must be” determined without outside interference, Xi said late Tuesday. It was a long way from the 2015 Paris climate accord when a Chinese-U.S. agreement paved the way for the international goal of keeping global warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius (2.7 degrees Fahrenheit) above preindustrial levels.

It appears the last two years of high temperatures were tempered by La Nina... which isn't good as China, the US, and Europe are teasing all-time records or breaking them in just July during this "super" El Nino.

The trouble we have at the moment is that if we stopped adding any CO2 into the atmosphere today, it'll likely take several years for the atmosphere to reach an equilibrium, and then several more to see if "nature" manages the CO2 itself and starts cutting it back. So these high temps... are going to get a bit higher, and then stay, unless nature does claw it back. But the problem is this... we aren't stopping CO2 emissions. CO2 emissions are going to go up. We might be looking at a cold fusion sort of time scale of perpetually never getting to our target.

So that leads us to the next thing. The climate has already changed, and will continue to get warmer. Who knows whether any planetary thresholds are surpassed that really mess things up. But let's just assume it isn't the worst, and instead the Middle East is becoming borderline unlivable, the historic infrastructure developed for one type of climate in areas is no longer able to manage the changing climate (leading to more CO2 emissions just to manage it), catastrophic flooding from 500 / 1000 year storm/flood events become more like 100 year events locally and nationally multiple times a year events, the Gulf of Mexico becomes an even larger hurricane microwave?

We need to address where is the money coming from to deal with all that. We'll need new flood models. Determine the adequacy of flood protection systems. We'll need to adapt hurricane models because they are still underpredicting wind speed development in the Gulf. Then we'll have the issue of food production and the impact climate will likely have on that.

While some consider "climate change" some sort of political sabre, the reality is, climate change is now historical, as in, it has already happened. Instead of the UN trying to pretend we have a chance at managing the temperature increase and its impact on our weather due to the solubility of water in 2.1 x 10²⁰ cubic feet of air in the Troposphere, we need to be seriously looking at the consequences that are occurring now and will likely occur as we heat up the ocean, kill off part of the ecosystem (coral reefs and supporting life), flood the heck out of towns and cities, and brew up stronger hurricanes.

The globe's fight against climate change was much like a Cleveland Browns' season. Even when it is good, it sucks. It is time to accept defeat and deal with managing the consequences instead of dwelling in delusions that nations will back down on economic growth in order to make life on Earth not as sucky.

I don't understand why this is an "instead". Why would addressing the consequences of climate change preclude trying to reduce carbon emissions?

 

[TomC]

I don't understand why this is an "instead". Why would addressing the consequences of climate change preclude trying to reduce carbon emissions?

Also, why do westerners keep bringing up China, as though they're the problem?

Last I knew, the per capita Chinese carbon footprint was about a quarter of the American. And we westerners developed our economies without regard for climate change.

Why should Chinese people carry the burden for a problem we created and continue to create daily?
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Because globally, even if we did everything right to reduce carbon, it'll take decades. And we are currently on the path of a century. So while it is a good idea to still and try to reduce carbon emissions, the OP is under the viewpoint that we aren't. So we need to deal with the consequences.

 

[Politesse]

Because globally, even if we did everything right to reduce carbon, it'll take decades. And we are currently on the path of a century. So while it is a good idea to still and try to reduce carbon emissions, the OP is under the viewpoint that we aren't. So we need to deal with the consequences.

I don't see anyone arguing against making adaptations to the changing climate, except for climate denialists who don't want to admit there's a problem in the first place. No one is like "We should refuse to humanely evacuate Vanuatu because China hasn't reduced its carbon emissions yet."

 

[Thomas II]

Florida resident checking in. My bags are packed.

Why? What is happening in Florida?

 

[Thomas II]

As human beings continue to substitute sustainability for cost savings and convenience, I ponder whether it is time for the UN to stop trying to limit climate change. China is kind of giving up already. I mean, they are going to address it, but it'll take a while.

China would pursue its commitments “unswervingly,” but the pace of such efforts “should and must be” determined without outside interference, Xi said late Tuesday. It was a long way from the 2015 Paris climate accord when a Chinese-U.S. agreement paved the way for the international goal of keeping global warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius (2.7 degrees Fahrenheit) above preindustrial levels.

It appears the last two years of high temperatures were tempered by La Nina... which isn't good as China, the US, and Europe are teasing all-time records or breaking them in just July during this "super" El Nino.

The trouble we have at the moment is that if we stopped adding any CO2 into the atmosphere today, it'll likely take several years for the atmosphere to reach an equilibrium, and then several more to see if "nature" manages the CO2 itself and starts cutting it back. So these high temps... are going to get a bit higher, and then stay, unless nature does claw it back. But the problem is this... we aren't stopping CO2 emissions. CO2 emissions are going to go up. We might be looking at a cold fusion sort of time scale of perpetually never getting to our target.

So that leads us to the next thing. The climate has already changed, and will continue to get warmer. Who knows whether any planetary thresholds are surpassed that really mess things up. But let's just assume it isn't the worst, and instead the Middle East is becoming borderline unlivable, the historic infrastructure developed for one type of climate in areas is no longer able to manage the changing climate (leading to more CO2 emissions just to manage it), catastrophic flooding from 500 / 1000 year storm/flood events become more like 100 year events locally and nationally multiple times a year events, the Gulf of Mexico becomes an even larger hurricane microwave?

We need to address where is the money coming from to deal with all that. We'll need new flood models. Determine the adequacy of flood protection systems. We'll need to adapt hurricane models because they are still underpredicting wind speed development in the Gulf. Then we'll have the issue of food production and the impact climate will likely have on that.

While some consider "climate change" some sort of political sabre, the reality is, climate change is now historical, as in, it has already happened. Instead of the UN trying to pretend we have a chance at managing the temperature increase and its impact on our weather due to the solubility of water in 2.1 x 10²⁰ cubic feet of air in the Troposphere, we need to be seriously looking at the consequences that are occurring now and will likely occur as we heat up the ocean, kill off part of the ecosystem (coral reefs and supporting life), flood the heck out of towns and cities, and brew up stronger hurricanes.

The globe's fight against climate change was much like a Cleveland Browns' season. Even when it is good, it sucks. It is time to accept defeat and deal with managing the consequences instead of dwelling in delusions that nations will back down on economic growth in order to make life on Earth not as sucky.

Thought it was too late...

 

[Politesse]

Florida resident checking in. My bags are packed.

Why? What is happening in Florida?

It is not comfortably far above the water line, methinks.

 

[Thomas II]

Florida resident checking in. My bags are packed.

Why? What is happening in Florida?

It is not comfortably far above the water line, methinks.

I thought it was the heat wave...

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Because globally, even if we did everything right to reduce carbon, it'll take decades. And we are currently on the path of a century. So while it is a good idea to still and try to reduce carbon emissions, the OP is under the viewpoint that we aren't. So we need to deal with the consequences.

I don't see anyone arguing against making adaptations to the changing climate, except for climate denialists who don't want to admit there's a problem in the first place. No one is like "We should refuse to humanely evacuate Vanuatu because China hasn't reduced its carbon emissions yet."

I ponder whether way too much is being concentrated on sea level increase due to ice melt. The slowing of the Atlantic conveyor has made the water level rise in SE US much more than that expected from simply new water volume.

As I see it, the trouble we have is that it is already too late, we have decades of additional warming ahead of us and we are seeing some intense El Nino warming across the globe.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Florida resident checking in. My bags are packed.

Why? What is happening in Florida?

It is not comfortably far above the water line, methinks.

I thought it was the heat wave...

In Florida it isn't heat... wait, that isn't it. It isn't the air temp as much as it is the air temp's impact on the water temp. The water ecosystem isn't adapted to manage these stresses. And then there are the questions of what impact does a very warm Gulf have on the Atlantic.

 

[Thomas II]

Florida resident checking in. My bags are packed.

Why? What is happening in Florida?

It is not comfortably far above the water line, methinks.

I thought it was the heat wave...

In Florida it isn't heat... wait, that isn't it. It isn't the air temp as much as it is the air temp's impact on the water temp. The water ecosystem isn't adapted to manage these stresses. And then there are the questions of what impact does a very warm Gulf have on the Atlantic.

 

[bilby]

Florida resident checking in. My bags are packed.

Why? What is happening in Florida?

It is not comfortably far above the water line, methinks.

I thought it was the heat wave...

In Florida it isn't heat... wait, that isn't it. It isn't the air temp as much as it is the air temp's impact on the water temp. The water ecosystem isn't adapted to manage these stresses. And then there are the questions of what impact does a very warm Gulf have on the Atlantic.

That's only 4° below boiling

 

[ZiprHead]

One McMansion. Less than $400K.

2752 N Thomas Rd, Saginaw, MI 48609 | realtor.com®

View detailed information about property 2752 N Thomas Rd, Saginaw, MI 48609 including listing details, property photos, school and neighborhood data, and much more.

www.realtor.com

 

[thebeave]

One McMansion. Less than $400K.

2752 N Thomas Rd, Saginaw, MI 48609 | realtor.com®

View detailed information about property 2752 N Thomas Rd, Saginaw, MI 48609 including listing details, property photos, school and neighborhood data, and much more.

www.realtor.com

Damn. You got some inexpensive houses out there in MI. I did some fix up work on this house earlier this year prior to it going on the market. And it still looked like shit and is barely habitable. Listed for 2.2 mil, sold for 2.7 mil:

https://www.realtor.com/realestatea...-View-Ave_Mountain-View_CA_94041_M12297-03026

 

[Harry Bosch]

I don't understand why this is an "instead". Why would addressing the consequences of climate change preclude trying to reduce carbon emissions?

Also, why do westerners keep bringing up China, as though they're the problem?

Last I knew, the per capita Chinese carbon footprint was about a quarter of the American. And we westerners developed our economies without regard for climate change.

Why should Chinese people carry the burden for a problem we created and continue to create daily?
Tom

China is most definitely part of the problem.

"China, the world's largest emitter of greenhouse gas, saw its carbon dioxide emissions rise 4% in the first quarter of this year compared to the same period in 2022, reaching more than 3 billion tonnes, according to a new report by the Centre for Research on Energy and Clean Air."

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/12/economy/china-carbon-emissions-record-intl-hnk/index.html#:~:text=China%2C%20the%20world%27s%20largest%20emitter,(CREA)%20for%20Carbon%20Brief.

I actually have more hope in China than America in leading the way in the climate fight. The US is too divided. Half the country thinks that climate change is a hoax. It could be worse in China. I don't know. But they are a dictatorship essentially. They can make permanent changes on a dime. Not the US

 

[Shadowy Man]

Florida resident checking in. My bags are packed.

Why? What is happening in Florida?

It is not comfortably far above the water line, methinks.

I thought it was the heat wave...

In Florida it isn't heat... wait, that isn't it. It isn't the air temp as much as it is the air temp's impact on the water temp. The water ecosystem isn't adapted to manage these stresses. And then there are the questions of what impact does a very warm Gulf have on the Atlantic.

That's only 4° below boiling

When you catch the fish they are already cooked.

 

[TomC]

is most definitely part of the problem.

I'd put China as 1% of the problem. So, they are a part.
I'd put the 1.5B most affluent westerners as 95%.

Pretending that China needs to mend their ways is bullshit, IMNSHO.
Tom

ETA ~Here's a little anecdote. Somewhere in my neighborhood there's a guy who drives a truck is see occasionally. I've never seen it with more than one occupant or a load visible. It's a V-8, 4 door, dually, longbed pickup. Across the tailgate is a three foot wide bumper sticker.
"I am very proud of my carbon footprint"

As long as people like that continue to dominate the planet, I find it reprehensible to expect Chinese people to do without jobs or electric lights and whatever else is being powered by their generating plants. ~