China Prepares for War - Our Response?

[bilby]

That is my point, it does not seem like naval battles are winnable.

Surely there has to be a winner, unless both fleets are completely destroyed?

The US Navy has a lot of experience and knowledge regarding how to use and protect surface vessels. I doubt that China has sufficient such expertise as to prevent American submarines from turning their entire surface fleet into a nice artificial reef that scuba divers will enjoy in a couple of decades time.

Assuming it came to a shooting war.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Two points regarding any intentions of China beyond Taiwan is it is highly questionable that what they have now could be considered a
 Blue water navy in that they are not building nuclear powered aircraft carriers and they do not have the bases around the world to support sustained blue water operations of an entire battlegroup.
Ships need ports for repairs crews can't perform,  UnRep capabilities of the entire group, critical parts and company tech reps sent around the world in as little as two days.
China is unlikely to build the relationships necessary to have ports/repair facilities around the world. It's a lesson they should have learned from Russia. No one likes an asshole.

 

[SLD]

That is my point, it does not seem like naval battles are winnable. Especially in a conflict over Taiwan.

Go back to the Falklands War.

Biden's reckless rhetoric may have backed us into a corner. I beleve the Cold War era agreement was to supply weapons not a mutual defense treaty.

A shooting naval engagemnt between China and the USA could easily spin out of control.

Global trade could crash. That is why the Chinese beligerence is insane.

you’re confusing surface and sub surface warfare. The Chinese do not know how to counter our submarines. We could put 5 subs in the straits and they’d wreak havoc on any Chinese fleet. We wouldn’t risk aircraft carriers anywhere near Taiwan.

And yes global trade would crash. It would be insane. But they may not care.

 

[Harry Bosch]

That is my point, it does not seem like naval battles are winnable. Especially in a conflict over Taiwan.

Go back to the Falklands War.

Biden's reckless rhetoric may have backed us into a corner. I beleve the Cold War era agreement was to supply weapons not a mutual defense treaty.

A shooting naval engagemnt between China and the USA could easily spin out of control.

Global trade could crash. That is why the Chinese beligerence is insane.

I disagree that it was reckless. We can't allow China to invade Taiwan. Forget the human aspect for a sec. Our economy would be destroyed if China destroys Taiwan. If you want to blame someone for backing us into a corner, blame the people who devised the global trade supply. Taiwan manufacturers about 90% of the chips that we use today. You'll be affected if you drive a car, rely on heat or AC for your house, have a pacemaker, smart phones, and all other electronic equipment. My new toaster that I bought yesterday has chips. The computer that you use to tell me that I'm wrong has chips in it! They are in everything today. Biden is at least trying to bring chip production back to the US. Did Trump, Obama, or Bush do anything to defuse the problem? Biden is also gathering allies (Japan and South Korea) to encourage China to not invade.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That is my point, it does not seem like naval battles are winnable. Especially in a conflict over Taiwan.

Go back to the Falklands War.

Biden's reckless rhetoric may have backed us into a corner. I beleve the Cold War era agreement was to supply weapons not a mutual defense treaty.

A shooting naval engagemnt between China and the USA could easily spin out of control.

Global trade could crash. That is why the Chinese beligerence is insane.

you’re confusing surface and sub surface warfare. The Chinese do not know how to counter our submarines. We could put 5 subs in the straits and they’d wreak havoc on any Chinese fleet. We wouldn’t risk aircraft carriers anywhere near Taiwan.

And yes global trade would crash. It would be insane. But they may not care.

When an idiot took people to their death in a small submersible in the Atlantic, the US Navy decided to allowing the leaking that they detected the implosion. I think that was done specifically to remind the major powers on the globe that we haven't been resting since the 1970s or 80s. It was meant as a signal that we will not be surprised. You can try and attack us, but we'll know. What do you think you know about where we are?

The good news is that a war between China and the US would have awful repercussions for both sides, making it much less likely. We'd beat the Chinese, but we'd be so much more the worse off afterwards. And I've got to think China knows this. They have been trying to manage their overpopulation problem for a while via economic growth. With a weakening economy after decades of manipulating it, the piper is nearing the gate. They have no solution. There will be pain. War won't solve that problem without worsening other things. Taking back Taiwan won't make things easier as well.

China has serious issues. The truth to the matter is we do as well. We have different problems. Some decently large ones that we need to be concerning ourselves with... and not distracting ourselves with lesser existing threats from global powers.

 

[steve_bank]

China has been harassing Philippine fising vessels. Shootng at and hitting with water hoses. PI ran a ship aground on a reef to claim onership of the waters around. I think Norway did sometng simiar with a rock in the Atlantic.

China has played chicken with our Navy and planes. My guess is at the top the CCP has hyped itself into a kind of ideological frenzy.

Back in the 90s for our annual Sea Fair event a Chinese destroyer tied up in Everett. I walked through.

At the gangplank were two grim looking Chinese with AK47s at the ready fingers on the trigger. Never forgot the image. I think that represents China's attitude towards us and the world.

China is backing itself into a corner with no off ramp, as Putin did.

China is obsessed with having an identity separate from the west and in particular the USA.

WE made China as it s. We blindly allowed wholesale transfer of technology and manufacturing expertise to China. Tax breaks to subside companies moving to Chima may still be on the books.

The idea was we would keep intellectual white collar jbs over here and manufactur in China, union busting was probably part of it. Turned out China was as smart s we are and learned to do deign work themselves.

If you are over here and have a product idea Chinese companies will do the design and delever a product to you.

China was smart and exploited it to the max funding their military modernization.

It is all aother case of our really stupid foreign policy. We play nice and hold out the hand of friendship and all will be well. China is still picking our pockets.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

China has been harassing Philippine fising vessels. Shootng at and hitting with water hoses. PI ran a ship aground on a reef to claim onership of the waters around. I think Norway did sometng simiar with a rock in the Atlantic.

China has played chicken with our Navy and planes. My guess is at the top the CCP has hyped itself into a kind of ideological frenzy.

Back in the 90s for our annual Sea Fair event a Chinese destroyer tied up in Everett. I walked through.

At the gangplank were two grim looking Chinese with AK47s at the ready fingers on the trigger. Never forgot the image. I think that represents China's attitude towards us and the world.

Read up on Chinese history and its relationship to the West. Read up on the Opium War, Boxer Rebellions, and the US "support" of China while they were getting slaughtered by Japan.

China's distaste for the West didn't just happen. Our involvement with their nation is so disturbing we don't teach it in school. We gave them a lot of our production, openly. And not because we gave a fuck, because we wanted to outsource our pollution. And now we paint them as the bad guy for stealing our jobs?!

Why should China care about us or have any semblance of empathy towards the West? China isn't a collective of angels, but we abused that nation for over a century.

 

[Elixir]

because we wanted to outsource our pollution.

No, it is not about pollution. It is and always has been, about cheap human labor and the Chinese devaluation of human life. A few hundred million subjugated and repressed individuals working their fingers to the bone, can elevate both the US and the Chinese economies. It gets dicey when American libtards start complaining about little yellow children being worked to death making the libtards’ own kids’ socks.

 

[bilby]

Turned out China was as smart s we are and learned to do deign work themselves.

Anyone who knows any history would have anticipated that China would be as smart as, or smarter than, America, on average.

Of course, the problem here is that most Americans suck at history. And at geography.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Americans are great at the study of historical American exceptionalism.

 

[Derec]

Anyone who knows any history would have anticipated that China would be as smart as, or smarter than, America, on average.

Especially since our schools and colleges have become more interested in "equity" and using math for political purposes (like to push the reparations ideology) than in actual education.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

FFS!

 

[pood]

Anyone who knows any history would have anticipated that China would be as smart as, or smarter than, America, on average.

Especially since our schools and colleges have become more interested in "equity" and using math for political purposes (like to push the reparations ideology) than in actual education.

LOL, Faux News sure did their number on untold millions across a couple generations since that corrupt propaganda platform was founded.

 

[pood]

The real people who hate eduction and try to destroy it are, of course, right wingers. If the populace were educated right wingers would never win another election.

 

[steve_bank]

China has been harassing Philippine fising vessels. Shootng at and hitting with water hoses. PI ran a ship aground on a reef to claim onership of the waters around. I think Norway did sometng simiar with a rock in the Atlantic.

China has played chicken with our Navy and planes. My guess is at the top the CCP has hyped itself into a kind of ideological frenzy.

Back in the 90s for our annual Sea Fair event a Chinese destroyer tied up in Everett. I walked through.

At the gangplank were two grim looking Chinese with AK47s at the ready fingers on the trigger. Never forgot the image. I think that represents China's attitude towards us and the world.

Read up on Chinese history and its relationship to the West. Read up on the Opium War, Boxer Rebellions, and the US "support" of China while they were getting slaughtered by Japan.

China's distaste for the West didn't just happen. Our involvement with their nation is so disturbing we don't teach it in school. We gave them a lot of our production, openly. And not because we gave a fuck, because we wanted to outsource our pollution. And now we paint them as the bad guy for stealing our jobs?!

Why should China care about us or have any semblance of empathy towards the West? China isn't a collective of angels, but we abused that nation for over a century.

I know that and you know that, but or politicians do not think historically. We did not learn from VN, Afghanistan and Iraq.

Over the last 20 years the mantra has been 'we wnat a level playing field' as if China gves a shit about western values of rule of law, fair play and competition.

Under our paradigm of profit and no restrictions on capital movement American busness went headlong into China.

Our foreign policy is make the world safe for America busness. What is good for busness is good for Amercan. Jobs said explicitly 'Apple will never bring manufacturing back to America'.


Ted Kopple did a series from China. In one epse he is inerviewing a top Chines auto executve. Kopell asks about theft of intectual property. The Chibes points to a car on an assembly line and said 'If we can;t get a transmission from an Amercan car w';ll get one from somebody else'.

They are blatant about it.

To manufacture in China they required teaching Chinese about the technology. A European wind turbibe company built a plant in China. China in turn copied it asd started a comany to compete.

Finally we are hearing politicians say China is our enemy and they are eating our lunch. No shit Sherlock.

 

[Derec]

China is backing itself into a corner with no off ramp, as Putin did.

Interestingly, if China wants a military success Putin has given them an opening. Russia is busy in Ukraine, and is not doing terribly well there.
Prime time for China to take back territories it lost to Russia in the mid 19th century.

It would still distract from domestic problems like the economy, but US/EU would likely not give much of a fuck unlike with Taiwan, which is good for trade. What can Putin do? Without nuclear weapons (which China also has) not much. Russian military is in some trouble as is, and if they decide to drop Ukraine when China starts moving their assets to their northern border, the bulk of their military is 4000 miles away. China could end the kinetic part of the conflict before Russia could properly mobilize.
China lost these territories during the "century of humiliation" and it would be a propaganda coup to get them back. It would sour things with Russia for decades, sure, but you can't expand without pissing somebody off.

China is obsessed with having an identity separate from the west and in particular the USA.

Nothing wrong with having a separate identity. That does not mean they should be antagonistic for the sake of being antagonistic.

As you can see, a lot of Chinese exports go to US and other western countries (EU, UK, Canada, Australia). Another big chunk is its Asian neighbors (although, should Hong Kong even count?). Russia only gets 2% - less than Mexico and the same as the city state of Singapore.

WE made China as it s. We blindly allowed wholesale transfer of technology and manufacturing expertise to China. Tax breaks to subside companies moving to Chima may still be on the books.

True. Our supply chain is too dependent on China, and we have not linked trade to environmental improvements, which allowed China to be very dirty - most CO₂ emissions of any country, and also most coal which is not only the most carbon intensive fuel, but also very dirty otherwise.

The idea was we would keep intellectual white collar jbs over here and manufactur in China, union busting was probably part of it. Turned out China was as smart s we are and learned to do deign work themselves.

So-called "union busting" is a separate issue. Unions is US tend to become too powerful as they can effectively extort employers. Think of the recent UPS threat of strike which led to delivery drivers now being paid whopping $50/hour for what is rather unskilled work.

A better balance between unions and employers is needed in the US. Maybe there would be more unionization in the US if unions where they exist aren't able to make ridiculous demands that harm the employers. WGA and SAG also come to mind - union scale is already pretty high. Why are these 1%ers striking?

If you are over here and have a product idea Chinese companies will do the design and delever a product to you.

A tip: please proofread your posts. The amount of typos in this one is way too high.

 

[Derec]

The real people who hate eduction and try to destroy it are, of course, right wingers. If the populace were educated right wingers would never win another election.

Pox on both their houses! Both sides want to control what kids learn. But the leftists are way more powerful in the ed biz, and have been for decades.

To bring it back to our rivalry with China, we need to fix our education system. Bring it back to solid education, not indoctrination. Lack of ideological diversity among faculty and administration is also a problem, as that makes universities and other school susceptible to group think and echo chamber effects.

In the 1950s US had the "Sputnik moment". USSR launched the first man-made satellite and that acted as a wake-up call to improve US education. The result has been a half century ol.f domination of US universities on the world stage. But now the quality of US universities is on the decline. I already posted here before about a local college that has dropped their academic standards precipitously over the last 5 years. Now it seems in the business in giving easy As even if hitherto hard classes like organic chemistry (unproctored online exams (i.e. trivially easy to cheat) even when the class is not given online as well as covering far less material than before). That is not the way. I think we need another wakeup call. What will it be? Whatever it is, it will probably have to do with China.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

you’re confusing surface and sub surface warfare. The Chinese do not know how to counter our submarines. We could put 5 subs in the straits and they’d wreak havoc on any Chinese fleet. We wouldn’t risk aircraft carriers anywhere near Taiwan.

And yes global trade would crash. It would be insane. But they may not care.

This. While subs can't control the seas they certainly can deny them to others--and China doesn't have much ability to counter our subs. The normal approach is helicopters with dipping sonar--but you can only do that if you have control of the skies where you are searching.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Where would that war be? We are not going to invade China and vice versa.

I do not think we shoud interfere in Riawn. Officaly Taiwn has no international status and I believe China may have a legal claim to Taiwan.

China is irrational. They made a tremendous leap out of the Maoist chaos by opening up to western investment and trade.

Now they want to risk that for what amounts to 19th 20th century imperialism and colonialism that led to WWII.

China has shot at Philippine fishing boats in international waters.

Correction: Taiwan has a legal claim on China.

China/Taiwan is an unresolved civil war in which the original government is now in Taiwan.

 

[Tigers!]

Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum - If you want peace prepare for war