Are there any "true" atheists?

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

They appear to me to be working hard to hold on to their pet ideas and finding ways to eliminate all doubters.

Speaking for myself, that looks a lot more like you.

Get that ad hominem fallacy in there, Tom!

Here's where I stopped reading the post. You are not making sense.

You made a bit of a personal statement regarding people's "hold[ing] on to their pet ideas." Tom replied no that's you and then you declared ad hom. That's beyond a double standard you have expressed there: If you're saying N people are doing X and then someone says "No you are," and whatever X really is...if it is truly an ad hom, then you had launched an ad hom at N people.

I notice that your responses in the thread tend toward the personal rather than choosing posts with more substance that are challenging and replies you make are also personal as evidenced by the above. That really calls into question what the purpose of this thread is, especially since the op question has already been answered and conceded to. I recommend that you end the thread, save whatever dignity we all have left including you, and then if you can reformulate another coherent non-insulting question into another op covering any remaining questions, do so.

 

[TomC]

I've read their posts.

This is my first post in this thread

I'm such a hard agnostic I may as well be an atheist. We don't, and probably cannot, understand anything important about The Original Source. That doesn't mean that there's nothing besides the material world we are capable of investigating.
Tom

I don't recall you ever responding to it.

What do you think.
Am I an atheist or not?
Tom

 

[Unknown Soldier]

For example, we've seen on this thread the definition that atheism means lack of belief in God. That definition rules out my position that atheists can possibly believe in God.

If a person believes in god, by definition, they are not an atheist.

If you choose to define an atheist as a person who does not believe in God, then you arrive at your preconceived destination. Ruling out other definitions ensures that you get to where you want to go.

I think you are missing the point. Several people in this thread, including I have told you that they don't believe in a god, and that they call themselves atheists based on this lack of belief. At the end of the day, it is their worldview, their lack of belief in god that is important, not necessarily what they choose to call themselves.

Most people here appear to understand what the word atheist means, and how they define their own position in the matter of their personal lack of belief in god, but you seem determined to not listen to them and run with the script playing in your own head. A script that is apparently based in an alternate reality where up means down and atheist means theist.

But why don't you accuse those who disagree with me of doing the same? You could just as easily assert that they don't define atheism properly and that they have scripts based in "alternate realities."

I have read the thread, and what I see is a lack of communication, and I place most of the fault for this lack of communication with you. I, and others have told you that we don't believe that gods exist, but you keep insisting that they do believe, that their word is not to be trusted. You have also told us that it is appropriate for people who do believe in gods to call themselves atheists. The point of language is communication, and you don't seem to be good at it. That is my observation.

In other words, my opponents attempt to win the debate with a definition that makes their position true!

There is no winning a debate in which one party refuses to accept commonly accepted definitions of words.

But there is more than one commonly accepted definition of atheism as I have documented on this thread. You are oversimplifying. I say keep an open mind and be willing to accept disagreement. I had enough of narrow, dogmatic, exclusionary thinking when I was a theist, and it's no more acceptable to me when it comes from atheists.

People who believe in gods do not call themselves atheists. At least that has been my experience. And people who don't believe in gods and call themselves atheists are not being dogmatic when they insist that they don't believe.

I've already conceded that "pure" atheists can exist. I can't rule them out. But I cannot wisely accept as true the mere words of those who insist they have no beliefs in God(s) at all. I gave up believing everything I was told when I was a theist!

The fact that you choose to not believe what people keep telling you about their personal convictions...

I made no such choice. I don't have all the facts regarding what I was told, so for now I reserve judgment.

You have made a choice. You have chosen to believe that many of the people telling you that they don't believe in gods may be lying. And I suggest that says more about your state of mind than those you choose not to believe.

speaks more about you than it does them.

Why am I an issue here? You're engaging in an ad hominem fallacy.

you appear to be using this thread as some sort of misdirected rant where you flail around and make a public scene as you try to work through your own complex on this subject.

If you don't like the thread, or you don't like me, then you can leave the thread any time. Just don't ruin it for others.

I would suggest getting professional help to work through this complex.

I see doctors as needed, and I work diligently to maintain my health. After all, if I don't do so, then who else will inject some reason into an otherwise unreasonable forum?

While this forum might be free, people here are not professional therapists, and are probably not looking at your posts as a therapist would in a one-on-one counseling session.

They appear to me to be working hard to hold on to their pet ideas and finding ways to eliminate all doubters.

Which takes us full circle: Theists do that too when their beliefs are being scrutinized.

Telling a self-professed atheist that he may be lying and that he is being dogmatic simply because he insists that the statement is true is not scrutiny, its just a way to be contrary and call people liars. Especially when multiple people are telling you the same thing. Like I said, a plain reading of this thread has led me to believe that you are conflicted about your own worldview, and keep projecting this conflict on to others. It is also possible that you are being contrary for the fun of it - I can't say for sure.

Eric, I've already rebutted essentially everything you've posted here. So rather than keep repeating myself, I suggest you go over the thread to read my relevant rebuttals. You are welcome to ask me germane questions if I haven't already answered them.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I've read their posts.

This is my first post in this thread

I'm such a hard agnostic I may as well be an atheist. We don't, and probably cannot, understand anything important about The Original Source. That doesn't mean that there's nothing besides the material world we are capable of investigating.
Tom

I don't recall you ever responding to it.

What do you think.
Am I an atheist or not?
Tom

I don't know if you're an atheist, and I have little idea why I'm supposed to know if you're an atheist. But if I understand correctly, I'm obligated to believe whatever you say. If I don't say I believe what you say, then I'm in danger of being punished for allegedly calling you a liar.

 

[TomC]

. But if I understand correctly, I'm obligated to believe whatever you say.

You don't understand correctly at all.

You believe what you want. Label yourself as you want.
But don't tell other people that they're wrong when they tell you about themselves and what they believe.
Tom

 

[Unknown Soldier]

. But if I understand correctly, I'm obligated to believe whatever you say.

You don't understand correctly at all.

It can be difficult to understand; that's true.

You believe what you want. Label yourself as you want.

I said I don't like labels.

But don't tell other people that they're wrong when they tell you about themselves and what they believe.
Tom

But you're wrong right there. I didn't tell anybody that they're wrong--not until now.

So you complain about my not believing you only to post what I know is false.

 

[TomC]

It can be difficult to understand; that's true.

What I said, and you quoted, isn't difficult to understand.
You aren't obligated to believe anything. And you can self identify any way you want.
That's it.
Tom

 

[Rhea]

They appear to me to be working hard to hold on to their pet ideas

In what way is it a “pet idea” to answer your question and let you know I’m a true atheist and resist your attempts to say I’m not?

Then I'm left wondering why everybody here keeps trying to eliminate me.

“Eliminate“ you? Wut?
They are just answering your question and refusing to let you call their answers something other than their answers.

It appears that the idea of theism in an atheist is a very unsettling and unacceptable idea to the atheists here. It's very reminiscent of theists angrily denying that they really don't believe their doctrines.

It’s not unsettling a bit. It’s just contrary to what the prefix “a-“ means. And you reveal that you know this by using the phrase, “true atheist” in your OP, to distinguish it from atheist (implicit can have doubts).

It makes perfect sense to say either an atheist or a theist can harbor doubt. But it would be wrong to say that ALL of them do, when you are faced with people who do not exptress doubt. And it would be wrong to say that theism and without-theism are synonyms.

But you're wrong right there. I didn't tell anybody that they're wrong--not until now.

You must have forgotten your reply to me that when I said I was an atheist you asserted that I was not, I just didn’t know it.

Like I said, a plain reading of this thread has led me to believe that you are conflicted about your own worldview, and keep projecting this conflict on to others.

I think this is becoming more and more apparent.


Unknown soldier, it’s fine that you harbor doubts. It’s fine that you call yourself an atheist-who-is-not-a-true-atheist.

You made it clear you are not a “True Atheist” but you are still an atheist.
The response is, “that’s fine, we believe you.”

You asked if there were any “True Atheists” here.
The answer is yes.

 

[DBT]

'Don't know' or 'not sure' probably qualifies as atheism because you do not hold a belief in the existence of a God or gods.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

You must have forgotten your reply to me that when I said I was an atheist you asserted that I was not, I just didn’t know it.

Where did I say that? You must be misquoting me because I don't know if you're an atheist or not.

 

[Rhea]

You must have forgotten your reply to me that when I said I was an atheist you asserted that I was not, I just didn’t know it.

Where did I say that? You must be misquoting me because I don't know if you're an atheist or not.

Seriously?

Do any people exist who have no belief at all in any God(s)?

Here’s another one. Me, my husband, my kids, my siblings. Most of his siblings.
I have no belief at all in any God(dess)(es).

A lot of people insist they aren't racist but when tested for it test positive. Others say they can distinguish between Coke and Pepsi and fail that test too. So what people say and what's the reality often differ.

You know that I’m a true atheist because I told you I was.
Anything different than that is you trying to assert that I’m not.

 

[Shadowy Man]

You must have forgotten your reply to me that when I said I was an atheist you asserted that I was not, I just didn’t know it.

Where did I say that? You must be misquoting me because I don't know if you're an atheist or not.

Seriously?

Do any people exist who have no belief at all in any God(s)?

Here’s another one. Me, my husband, my kids, my siblings. Most of his siblings.
I have no belief at all in any God(dess)(es).

A lot of people insist they aren't racist but when tested for it test positive. Others say they can distinguish between Coke and Pepsi and fail that test too. So what people say and what's the reality often differ.

You know that I’m a true atheist because I told you I was.
Anything different than that is you trying to assert that I’m not.

No no. You see… in his response he asserted nothing about you. It was only your poor reading comprehension that the immediate juxtaposition of his reference to others who say they are something when they are not with your claim of being an atheist made it *appear* to you and every other reader of this thread as if he was denigrating your claim.

 

[DBT]

You must have forgotten your reply to me that when I said I was an atheist you asserted that I was not, I just didn’t know it.

Where did I say that? You must be misquoting me because I don't know if you're an atheist or not.

If you lack conviction in the existence of a God or gods, you are an atheist.

 

[bilby]

Every single person here who identifies as an atheist has a back story and every single one of them has, as I have learned, come to their atheism for very considered reasons.

I didn't. I was born an atheist, and never found any reason to change my position.

I haven't "come to" my atheism at all; I've never left it, and have never even had a moment of doubt when someone suggested that my position was wrong - because their suggestions have always been absurd, and backed by laughable "evidence" (or none at all).

 

[Unknown Soldier]

You must have forgotten your reply to me that when I said I was an atheist you asserted that I was not, I just didn’t know it.

Where did I say that? You must be misquoting me because I don't know if you're an atheist or not.

Seriously?

Do any people exist who have no belief at all in any God(s)?

Here’s another one. Me, my husband, my kids, my siblings. Most of his siblings.
I have no belief at all in any God(dess)(es).

A lot of people insist they aren't racist but when tested for it test positive. Others say they can distinguish between Coke and Pepsi and fail that test too. So what people say and what's the reality often differ.

You know that I’m a true atheist because I told you I was.
Anything different than that is you trying to assert that I’m not.

I'm not sure what to make of this post. Is it a joke? Is it a trap of some kind? One thing's for sure; this forum is bizarre. It turns the truth inside out and upside down. And if I dare point that out, then I'm threatened with punishment.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

It was only your poor reading comprehension that the immediate juxtaposition of his reference to others who say they are something when they are not with your claim of being an atheist made it *appear* to you and every other reader of this thread as if he was denigrating your claim.

This statement doesn't make sense.

 

[TomC]

I'm not sure what to make of this post.

Rhea told you the truth. You don't like the truth.
So you don't know what to make of it.
Tom

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I'm not sure what to make of this post. Is it a joke?

Sadly, no, you are not joking.

 

[Shadowy Man]

It was only your poor reading comprehension that the immediate juxtaposition of his reference to others who say they are something when they are not with your claim of being an atheist made it *appear* to you and every other reader of this thread as if he was denigrating your claim.

This statement doesn't make sense.

Yes. That’s been obvious.

 

[Shadowy Man]

You must have forgotten your reply to me that when I said I was an atheist you asserted that I was not, I just didn’t know it.

Where did I say that? You must be misquoting me because I don't know if you're an atheist or not.

Seriously?

Do any people exist who have no belief at all in any God(s)?

Here’s another one. Me, my husband, my kids, my siblings. Most of his siblings.
I have no belief at all in any God(dess)(es).

A lot of people insist they aren't racist but when tested for it test positive. Others say they can distinguish between Coke and Pepsi and fail that test too. So what people say and what's the reality often differ.

You know that I’m a true atheist because I told you I was.
Anything different than that is you trying to assert that I’m not.

I'm not sure what to make of this post. Is it a joke? Is it a trap of some kind? One thing's for sure; this forum is bizarre. It turns the truth inside out and upside down. And if I dare point that out, then I'm threatened with punishment.

What specifically have you been threatened with?