Forced vaccinations with zero exemptions

[Toni]

The benefits of vaccination are really up to the level of herd-immunity. Beyond a certain % the disease can't spread easily, and dangerous sweeping outbreaks occur far less often.

However, what you're talking about is using a great deal of expensive and distressing coercion to force EVERYONE to get vaccinated. The level won't be 100% because of medical exemptions. But you want to push it as high as possible. Why? What's the medical benefit of going from the 80-90% or so that you get from a voluntary program to the 99% of a compulsory one? Because it strikes me that your plan here is to kill people (both vaccination and coercion have a non-zero death rate, as the smallpox program showed) in order to get an arbitrarily high vaccination rate. Is the epidemeology really behind you on this one?

Measles is not endemic in the US at this point. Outbreaks are due to imports from areas without the high vaccination level.

If you could bring the whole world to a 90% level measles would go extinct, there would be no reason to push vaccination levels higher. Herd immunity doesn't stop imports, though, it just limits the size of the outbreak.

And you can't do it by requiring visitors to show a health card, those are too easy to fake. (It's the same system in use now as in the 80s--and back then I traveled across Africa in a group where everyone had faked health cards. We weren't anti-vaxxers, we only faked the smallpox vaccination--because you could still have trouble with border guards wanting bribes if your vaccinations weren't up to date--never mind that the only people with current smallpox shots at that time were people that worked in level 4 labs.)

You are correct that most measles outbreaks are due to unvaccinated immigrants.

Smallpox vaccination raises an immediate and large, pronounced blister that leaves an easily discernible scar. They must not have given a shit if you got smallpox but I'm a little surprised you got back into the states.

 

[Toni]

Yeah, medical exemption based on the evaluation of an independent doctor, not the family doctor (although it can be based on things in the family doctor's record.) The problem is too many doctors are pressured to sign off on medical exemptions when there isn't a valid reason.

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More education, not more coercison is needed to counteract the misinformation. The necessary education is not limited to knowing that vaccines protect against disease and do not cause autism, or whatever the condition of the month is. It starts with basic science education, including understanding what science is, what evidence is, medical science, etc.

When people feel coerced, they try to get around rules. When people don't have the basic tools with which to understand how their bodies work, how vaccines work, they don't make as good decisions. When people feel that that knowledge is somehow beyond them, they turn to woo and conspiracy theories. When people actually understand why something is necessary, they are much more likely to be compliant.

You can't make them learn, any more than you can make the horse drink.

You are misunderstanding: I'm talking about high quality comprehensive science education from K-12, minimum, with strong emphasis on human biology.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yeah, medical exemption based on the evaluation of an independent doctor, not the family doctor (although it can be based on things in the family doctor's record.) The problem is too many doctors are pressured to sign off on medical exemptions when there isn't a valid reason.

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You can't make them learn, any more than you can make the horse drink.

You are misunderstanding: I'm talking about high quality comprehensive science education from K-12, minimum, with strong emphasis on human biology.

Toni, we have good schools today and some people still think Evolution is a lie.

Hmm... maybe the doctor can threaten to call the cops. That should scare the hell out of them. The cops could end up lighting the whole place up with gun fire because some kid slammed a door.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Toni, we have good schools today and some people still think Evolution is a lie.

But do we really care all that much if those people die from measles?

 

[Toni]

You are misunderstanding: I'm talking about high quality comprehensive science education from K-12, minimum, with strong emphasis on human biology.

Toni, we have good schools today and some people still think Evolution is a lie.

Correction: we have some good schools. Not all schools have good, comprehensive science curriculum.

However, we still do have a constitution, despite W.

 

[bilby]

Toni, we have good schools today and some people still think Evolution is a lie.

But do we really care all that much if those people die from measles?

If they die? No, not much.

If their stupidity causes their children's deaths? Yes, that's an issue.

If their stupidity causes the deaths of strangers who cannot be vaccinated, because they are too young, or have a medical condition that prevents vaccination? Yes, we certainly should care.

If only they were only harming themselves, I would be amongst the first to applaud their decision to try for a Darwin Award. But like a drunk driver, an anti-vaxer tends to take a few innocent bystanders with them when they go. And that's a real problem.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

But do we really care all that much if those people die from measles?

If they die? No, not much.

If their stupidity causes their children's deaths? Yes, that's an issue.

If their stupidity causes the deaths of strangers who cannot be vaccinated, because they are too young, or have a medical condition that prevents vaccination? Yes, we certainly should care.

If only they were only harming themselves, I would be amongst the first to applaud their decision to try for a Darwin Award. But like a drunk driver, an anti-vaxer tends to take a few innocent bystanders with them when they go. And that's a real problem.

Fair point.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But do we really care all that much if those people die from measles?

If they die? No, not much.

If their stupidity causes their children's deaths? Yes, that's an issue.

If their stupidity causes the deaths of strangers who cannot be vaccinated, because they are too young, or have a medical condition that prevents vaccination? Yes, we certainly should care.

If only they were only harming themselves, I would be amongst the first to applaud their decision to try for a Darwin Award. But like a drunk driver, an anti-vaxer tends to take a few innocent bystanders with them when they go. And that's a real problem.

So... suggesting a preemptive strike then?

 

[Toni]

Are those who are advocating coerced vaccination including vaccination against influenza?

Does anybody know how many deaths due to measles occur annually in the U.S.?

Anybody know if vaccination is mandated in Europe?

 

[bilby]

Are those who are advocating coerced vaccination including vaccination against influenza?

That depends what you mean by 'coerced'. I oppose fines or imprisonment for refusal to vaccinate; but I support prohibiting voluntarily unvaccinated persons from public places (which pretty much makes it mandatory if you are not living as a hermit), and I would support the same constraint on those who choose (with no medical justification) to be unvaccinated against influenza as on those unvaccinated against measles, polio, mumps, pertussis or rubella.

Does anybody know how many deaths due to measles occur annually in the U.S.?

Unless there are some in the current outbreak that I have not yet heard of, the last one was in 2005; there have been 15 deaths in the US since 1992. Prior to the availability of the measles vaccine, which was licensed in 1963, the number of yearly measles deaths in the US was around 450; in addition to these 450 annual deaths, in the US prior to 1963 around 48,000 measles patients per annum were hospitalised, and 4,000 developed encephalitis.

Anybody know if vaccination is mandated in Europe?

I don't think it is a legal requirement to immunise against any diseases anywhere in the EU at present, but I am not sure.

 

[Toni]

That depends what you mean by 'coerced'. I oppose fines or imprisonment for refusal to vaccinate; but I support prohibiting voluntarily unvaccinated persons from public places (which pretty much makes it mandatory if you are not living as a hermit), and I would support the same constraint on those who choose (with no medical justification) to be unvaccinated against influenza as on those unvaccinated against measles, polio, mumps, pertussis or rubella.

Does anybody know how many deaths due to measles occur annually in the U.S.?

Unless there are some in the current outbreak that I have not yet heard of, the last one was in 2005; there have been 15 deaths in the US since 1992. Prior to the availability of the measles vaccine, which was licensed in 1963, the number of yearly measles deaths in the US was around 450; in addition to these 450 annual deaths, in the US prior to 1963 around 48,000 measles patients per annum were hospitalised, and 4,000 developed encephalitis.

Anybody know if vaccination is mandated in Europe?

I don't think it is a legal requirement to immunise against any diseases anywhere in the EU at present, but I am not sure.

I should have asked before but I just forgot: Are such vaccinations mandatory in Australia? How is compliance monitored and enforced?

I was curious about how people felt about the flu vaccine for a few reasons:

1. It must be annual, not a few times and done.
2. It is far less effective than the other vaccines and the effectiveness varies from year to year
3. Many more people die from influenza than die from those childhood diseases we typically vaccinate against.

It's interesting that you would mandate confinement rather than fines for those who do not vaccinate. How would you handle those who travel from or immigrate from countries where vaccinations are not as available and not typically given in childhood?

How do you think those who have serious reactions to vaccines (there are actually deaths due to reactions to vaccines and serious illness/injury disability, although they are rare) should be compensated?

I'm a big proponent of vaccines. As I've mentioned, I remember well those childhood diseases. But I'm also a big proponent of individual freedom and control over one's own body. I find harsh penalties problematic.

 

[Rhea]

People who can be vaccinated should be vaccinated, for the protection of those who cannot.

People no more have the moral right to choose not to vaccinate for philosophical or religious reasons than they have the right to choose to drive while intoxicated for philosophical or religious reasons.

Your freedom to choose a course of action ends where that choice needlessly endangers others.

Just testing the waters here, so don't go crazy on me. Your example of intoxication troubles me. You're comparing a choice of not doing something to a choice of doing something. I'm not entirely sure that matters, but I wanted to throw that out there.

make it seatbelt use, then. And child restraints. Kids are REQUIRED to be safely restrained or you get fined. Because it endangers them and the people they fly around the car into.

 

[Rhea]

Okay, so medically established reasons get an exemption, scientifically invalid claims, whether about causing autism or how God feels about it do not. IOW, a panel of expert doctors and medical researchers testify as to the list of medical reasons why a vaccination puts a person at undue risk, and those people whose doctor sign a legal statement that the patient has such a vaccine relevant condition get an exemption.

That's a hell of a lot of work for a parent of a child undergoing chemo to have to go through, frankly. And more prohibitively, that's a really expensive proposition you've put forth. MOST people send their children to school and all states have mandates vaccine schedules with some exemptions, especially medical exemptions already outlined. That already serves as a pretty good way to ensure close to universal vaccination. But not all people send their children to school and can avoid vaccination that way. I am sure there are other ways, as well.

IMO, the best and most cost effective way to get compliance is via education.

It is exactly as hard as getting the doctor's medical approval to participate in high school sports, provide vaccine records to attend school and prescription paperwork for on-campus administration of medications.

It is certainly no more difficult, and honestly much easier than getting diagnosis paperwork for participation in Individual Accommodation Plans in education or for classroom aids.

 

[Rhea]

How do you think those who have serious reactions to vaccines (there are actually deaths due to reactions to vaccines and serious illness/injury disability, although they are rare) should be compensated?

.

You asked for numbers from others. I'm surprised you did not offer any here.

 

[Rhea]

It looks like flu deaths are on the decline - slowly but noticibly.



here's a list of deaths from these diseases
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/G/cases-deaths.pdf

This list of vaccine -caused deaths only lists total petitions filed or won, one cannot see how many deaths ended up being decided as cause by the vaccine and the decision is not separated by injury vs. death.
http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statisticsreports.html#1a

but you can see that in the last nine years it was 1300 cases combined settled/conceded/won, combined injury/death.

I did a little math on that last one to determine the compensible cases per million doses delivered (this does not mean deaths - it means any need for compensation, which can include missed work) Here it is by vaccine type

[table="width: 350, class: grid, align: left"]
[tr][td] Vaccine Alleged by Petitioner2 [/td][td]Compensible cases per 1MM doses given[/td][/tr]
[tr][td] DT [/td][td] 6.749 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] DTaP [/td][td] 1.395 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] DTaP-Hep B-IPV [/td][td] 0.730 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] DTaP-HIB [/td][td] 0.000 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] DTaP-IPV-HIB [/td][td] 0.107 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] DTP [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] Hep A-Hep B [/td][td] 0.769 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] Hep B-HIB [/td][td] 0.649 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] Hepatitis A (Hep A) [/td][td] 0.208 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] Hepatitis B (Hep B) [/td][td] 0.394 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] HIB [/td][td] 0.071 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] HPV [/td][td] 1.251 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] Influenza5 [/td][td] 0.864 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] IPV [/td][td] 0.057 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] Measles [/td][td] 7.371 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] Meningococcal [/td][td] 0.430 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] MMR [/td][td] 1.184 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] MMR-Varicella [/td][td] 1.734 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] Nonqualified6 [/td][td] 0.000 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] OPV [/td][td] 0.000 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] Pneumococcal Conjugate [/td][td] 0.049 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] Rotavirus [/td][td] 0.261 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] Rubella [/td][td] 2.367 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] Td [/td][td] 1.056 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] Tdap [/td][td] 0.523 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] TETANUS [/td][td] 4.171 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] Unspecified7 [/td][td] 0.000 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] Varicella [/td][td] 0.303 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] Grand Total [/td][td] 0.660 [/td][/tr]

[/table]


Interestingly, from this data, you would be advised to go for the multi-vaccine shots, not the single Measles.

 

[fast]

Just testing the waters here, so don't go crazy on me. Your example of intoxication troubles me. You're comparing a choice of not doing something to a choice of doing something. I'm not entirely sure that matters, but I wanted to throw that out there.

make it seatbelt use, then. And child restraints. Kids are REQUIRED to be safely restrained or you get fined. Because it endangers them and the people they fly around the car into.

Bilby responded with another example. I tried half a dozen times to respond, but I'm not getting anywhere.

 

[Rhea]

to expand on this:
Interestingly, from this data, you would be advised to go for the multi-vaccine shots, not the single Measles, not the single Rubella. And the chickenpox vax takes nothing from the safety of the multi-shot.

[table="width: 350, class: grid, align: center"]
[tr][td] Varicella [/td][td] 0.303 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] MMR [/td][td] 1.184 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] MMR-Varicella [/td][td] 1.734 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] Rubella [/td][td] 2.367 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] Measles [/td][td] 7.371 [/td][/tr]

[/table]

So "I need to take them one at a time!" seems to be making a choice to place your child in more harm.

 

[Toni]

How do you think those who have serious reactions to vaccines (there are actually deaths due to reactions to vaccines and serious illness/injury disability, although they are rare) should be compensated?

.

You asked for numbers from others. I'm surprised you did not offer any here.

In the post you quoted , I asked how bilby would compensate those injured by vaccines. I also asked if he was aware of the number of deaths due to diseases against which there are vaccines readily available. I didn't ask for the numbers or figures, but I do thank you for posting those.

Some are proposing very harsh sanctions against parents (and their children) for refusing to vaccinate. Yet I the case of measles, mumps, rubella, diphtheria, pertussis and chickenpox, there have been almost no deaths due to these illnesses since vaccination has become so prevalent. There have been deaths and serious injury to some small numbers of individuals.

Of course I am well aware that the death rate (virtually nil) to those diseases is so low because most people are vaccinated. However, the risk of vaccination for apparently healthy individuals is not zero.

I am a big proponent of vaccination and made certain that my kids all had all recommended vaccines. I think all parents should. But it is a lie to suggest that vaccination is risk free. And I believe that draconian measures to ensure vaccination are wrong and unnecessary. We have achieved an extremely low incidence rate through methods already in place.

I am vehemently opposed to knee jerk reactionary measures because of fear mongering (see the Patriot Act) but that knee jerk reaction to fear mongering does not fall on only one side of the issue.

 

[Perspicuo]

I would say that the best way to do it is with universal healthcare, so every child with an exemption is recognized prior to vaccination time.

But of course, saying that means I'm a communist.

Reptilian, actually.
Get updated, grampa.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Measles is not endemic in the US at this point. Outbreaks are due to imports from areas without the high vaccination level.

If you could bring the whole world to a 90% level measles would go extinct, there would be no reason to push vaccination levels higher. Herd immunity doesn't stop imports, though, it just limits the size of the outbreak.

And you can't do it by requiring visitors to show a health card, those are too easy to fake. (It's the same system in use now as in the 80s--and back then I traveled across Africa in a group where everyone had faked health cards. We weren't anti-vaxxers, we only faked the smallpox vaccination--because you could still have trouble with border guards wanting bribes if your vaccinations weren't up to date--never mind that the only people with current smallpox shots at that time were people that worked in level 4 labs.)

You are correct that most measles outbreaks are due to unvaccinated immigrants.

Smallpox vaccination raises an immediate and large, pronounced blister that leaves an easily discernible scar. They must not have given a shit if you got smallpox but I'm a little surprised you got back into the states.

Note the time: The 1980s. This was long enough after smallpox had been wiped out that everyone's shots were no longer valid. The US wouldn't give a hoot because they knew there was no reason to have a smallpox shot in the first place. I'm no anti-vaxxer, I've had the smallpox shot before--although it didn't leave a scar on me that I can find at least. (I was young enough at the time I don't recall where it was, I've looked in the reasonable places and found nothing.)

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Yeah, medical exemption based on the evaluation of an independent doctor, not the family doctor (although it can be based on things in the family doctor's record.) The problem is too many doctors are pressured to sign off on medical exemptions when there isn't a valid reason.

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You can't make them learn, any more than you can make the horse drink.

You are misunderstanding: I'm talking about high quality comprehensive science education from K-12, minimum, with strong emphasis on human biology.

It would help but you still can't make them learn.

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But do we really care all that much if those people die from measles?

If they die? No, not much.

If their stupidity causes their children's deaths? Yes, that's an issue.

If their stupidity causes the deaths of strangers who cannot be vaccinated, because they are too young, or have a medical condition that prevents vaccination? Yes, we certainly should care.

If only they were only harming themselves, I would be amongst the first to applaud their decision to try for a Darwin Award. But like a drunk driver, an anti-vaxer tends to take a few innocent bystanders with them when they go. And that's a real problem.

Exactly. If they want to risk themselves I have no problem with it. When they risk others I have a problem.

Perhaps we need to start prosecuting anti-vaxxer caused deaths as murder. (Any parent whose kid was part of the chain between patient zero and someone who dies would be considered as having caused it.)