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Forced vaccinations with zero exemptions

The best and most ethical method to increase compliance is not to force people to be vaccinated but to make such a decision costly: charge them a yearly non-vaccination tax for every member in their household that is not vaccinated.

That would be an interesting way to think about it if the only downside to society stemming from unvaccinated individuals were increased costs to the healthcare system. Not so much once once we acknowledge they also become carriers of infectious diseases, thus potentially endangering the lives of other who for some reason or other cannot be vaccinated, or whose vaccination failed to give them immunity. Or do you also think it should be possible to opt out from DUI laws by paying a drunk-driver tax?
 
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For the record, my childhood occurred before most of those vaccinations were around, so I got measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox. All of which I remember. And pertussis (whooping cough) which I contracted as an infant, before an age where I would have been vaccinated had vaccine been available at the time. I don't remember whooping cough but my understanding is that it nearly killed me.

You've just given the best reason for forced vaccinations without noticing. When people who are old enough to be vaccinated (e.g. for pertussis) remain unvaccinated, they spread the germ - including to children who are too young to be vaccinated, some of whom will die as a consequence. The choice to remain unvaccinated is a stupid one in that you put yourself at the greatest risk, but it's more like drunk driving than seatbelts because you also put others at a significant risk by doing so.

What about those who cannot be vaccinated because of medical issues? I've known a couple of very young children with cancer. Their treatment for cancer meant they could not be vaccinated.

If foregoing vaccination were only left for those who had established medical reasons to avoid vaccination, the risk of contracting the disease would be quite small. And limited to those who already bear substantial risk from the diseases the vaccinations protect against. And things like cancer or HIV.
 
That's a hell of a lot of work for a parent of a child undergoing chemo to have to go through, frankly. And more prohibitively, that's a really expensive proposition you've put forth.

No it isn't. While on one of their many doctors visits for that condition, their doctor merely signs an official government form verifying that the child has a medically validated risk if vaccinated. The panel I referred to isn't for each individual case but just a national level panel that gets together to create a list of the conditions that pose notable medical risk if a child is vaccinated. That list is on the form that the child's doctor merely uses to indicate the condition the child has. There is zero additional work or cost beyond getting diagnosed with the condition that puts one at risk.

MOST people send their children to school and all states have mandates vaccine schedules with some exemptions, especially medical exemptions already outlined. That already serves as a pretty good way to ensure close to universal vaccination. But not all people send their children to school and can avoid vaccination that way. I am sure there are other ways, as well.

Nearly all states allow non-medical exemptions that amount to nothing more than parents having to say "No, thanks". Around 10% of the national population is not vaccinated for measles and the same for polio, with many states having between 15% to 20% not vaccinated. That is far from "universal" and offers up a feeding ground for outbreaks to occur.

IMO, the best and most cost effective way to get compliance is via education.

Despite massive education efforts, measles vaccines flattened out about 15 years ago at the levels I mentioned above. Some places are getting higher while in other places the anti-vaccine propaganda is working and rates are getting lower. Pockets of sizeable non-vaccinated kids have created increases in outbreaks in recent years. There has been a sizable increase in measles cases with 3 of the last 4 years having more cases than the 10 prior years combined.
measles-cases-616px.jpg


The CDC set a goal of > 95% vaccination in all states by 2020. There is no way that is happening even by 2030 without additional coercion and the elimination of people being able to opt out without any medical reason whatever.

There are risks from all types of vaccinations, be they small. The people who die as a result (or their parents) clearly don't know the risks until it is too late.
 
No it isn't. While on one of their many doctors visits for that condition, their doctor merely signs an official government form verifying that the child has a medically validated risk if vaccinated. The panel I referred to isn't for each individual case but just a national level panel that gets together to create a list of the conditions that pose notable medical risk if a child is vaccinated. That list is on the form that the child's doctor merely uses to indicate the condition the child has. There is zero additional work or cost beyond getting diagnosed with the condition that puts one at risk.

MOST people send their children to school and all states have mandates vaccine schedules with some exemptions, especially medical exemptions already outlined. That already serves as a pretty good way to ensure close to universal vaccination. But not all people send their children to school and can avoid vaccination that way. I am sure there are other ways, as well.

Nearly all states allow non-medical exemptions that amount to nothing more than parents having to say "No, thanks". Around 10% of the national population is not vaccinated for measles and the same for polio, with many states having between 15% to 20% not vaccinated. That is far from "universal" and offers up a feeding ground for outbreaks to occur.

IMO, the best and most cost effective way to get compliance is via education.

Despite massive education efforts, measles vaccines flattened out about 15 years ago at the levels I mentioned above. Some places are getting higher while in other places the anti-vaccine propaganda is working and rates are getting lower. Pockets of sizeable non-vaccinated kids have created increases in outbreaks in recent years. There has been a sizable increase in measles cases with 3 of the last 4 years having more cases than the 10 prior years combined.
measles-cases-616px.jpg


The CDC set a goal of > 95% vaccination in all states by 2020. There is no way that is happening even by 2030 without additional coercion and the elimination of people being able to opt out without any medical reason whatever.

There are risks from all types of vaccinations, be they small. The people who die as a result (or their parents) clearly don't know the risks until it is too late.
No. I would pose that they do know the risks. They just recognize that the vaccine is simply the better gamble. You can't know for certain how dice will fall, but if you have to bet, bet on a seven.
 

They need to remove the religious exemption, too. If "conscience" is not enough, neither is "god" for putting other kids at risk. You want "god" to protect your kids, let him protect them in your home. Bet he can provide childcare for you, too. Just pray for it. Prayer works!

Apparently Christian Scientists are the only exception, leading to speculation that anti-vaccine parents in Australia may attempt to join that church under false pretenses.

Christian Science Australia spokeswoman Kay Stroud told Fairfax Media that the church was in fact "very neutral on the subject of vaccination" and did not make a suggestion to followers either way.

Ms Stroud also said the church would be able to determine if people were joining it simply to get out of vaccinating their children.

"We're not silly," she said...

Christian Science is based on the Bible and explained in writings by 19th century US founder Mary Baker Eddy. Among other things, it believes there is a link between prayer and health - as well as other issues such as global issues and employment.

The religion states it is up to each Christian Science follower to "choose" what health care they want. But many "decide to pray first about every challenge ... and find it effective".

It is not Scientology.
 
That does sound like an effective advertising campaign for pretty much any religion.

"Hey ... it's not like we're Scientology".
 
They need to remove the religious exemption, too. If "conscience" is not enough, neither is "god" for putting other kids at risk. You want "god" to protect your kids, let him protect them in your home. Bet he can provide childcare for you, too. Just pray for it. Prayer works!

Apparently Christian Scientists are the only exception, leading to speculation that anti-vaccine parents in Australia may attempt to join that church under false pretenses.

Christian Science Australia spokeswoman Kay Stroud told Fairfax Media that the church was in fact "very neutral on the subject of vaccination" and did not make a suggestion to followers either way.

Ms Stroud also said the church would be able to determine if people were joining it simply to get out of vaccinating their children.

"We're not silly," she said...

Christian Science is based on the Bible and explained in writings by 19th century US founder Mary Baker Eddy. Among other things, it believes there is a link between prayer and health - as well as other issues such as global issues and employment.

The religion states it is up to each Christian Science follower to "choose" what health care they want. But many "decide to pray first about every challenge ... and find it effective".

It is not Scientology.

Seems odd then that they are given the sole exception despite the issue not being directly related to any religious practices. Any religious exemptions is the State favoring some religions over others, so there should be zero exemptions to any law.
If there is any questions whether something is important enough for the public interests to warrant restricting religious practice, then it should be a law at all.

BTW, fines and fees are really just a form of "force" and punishment. Ultimately, they cannot be enforced unless backed by a credible threat of physical force (incarceration).
 
Apparently Christian Scientists are the only exception, leading to speculation that anti-vaccine parents in Australia may attempt to join that church under false pretenses.

Christian Science Australia spokeswoman Kay Stroud told Fairfax Media that the church was in fact "very neutral on the subject of vaccination" and did not make a suggestion to followers either way.

Ms Stroud also said the church would be able to determine if people were joining it simply to get out of vaccinating their children.

"We're not silly," she said...

Christian Science is based on the Bible and explained in writings by 19th century US founder Mary Baker Eddy. Among other things, it believes there is a link between prayer and health - as well as other issues such as global issues and employment.

The religion states it is up to each Christian Science follower to "choose" what health care they want. But many "decide to pray first about every challenge ... and find it effective".

It is not Scientology.

Seems odd then that they are given the sole exception despite the issue not being directly related to any religious practices. Any religious exemptions is the State favoring some religions over others, so there should be zero exemptions to any law.
While I agree that this would be an appropriate principle to apply from an ethical point of view, I feel that I should point out that this attitude is extremely rare amongst governments.

Almost all governments worldwide have no concept of separation of church and state, and religious exemptions and exceptions are endemic. They should not surprise anybody.
If there is any questions whether something is important enough for the public interests to warrant restricting religious practice, then it should be a law at all.

BTW, fines and fees are really just a form of "force" and punishment. Ultimately, they cannot be enforced unless backed by a credible threat of physical force (incarceration).
BTW This attitude is illogical and stupid, and despite being popular with the extreme right wing (particularly in the USA), is not recognised as in any way factual by anyone else.

It is a logical extension of the well known schoolyard assertion "You can't make me"; most people over the age of seven recognise the deeply flawed thinking that underlies this belief.

It amuses me that, having just derided religious exemptions from the law, you immediately point out an irrational belief that you seem to think applies universally to the enforcement of laws.

If fines and fees are 'force', then so are all human interactions; and 'force' is rendered meaningless.

Force is force. Fees are not force. Suggestions are not force. Being told to eat your greens if you want dessert is not force.

Being told that you won't get a hand out unless you do something to qualify for it is not force. And belief that it is is a pseudo-religion, and ethically speaking, should be ignored by law-makers.

If I had the power to remove religious exemptions and exceptions from Australian law, this law would not be at the top of my priority list.
 
Apparently Christian Scientists are the only exception, leading to speculation that anti-vaccine parents in Australia may attempt to join that church under false pretenses.

Christian Science Australia spokeswoman Kay Stroud told Fairfax Media that the church was in fact "very neutral on the subject of vaccination" and did not make a suggestion to followers either way.

Ms Stroud also said the church would be able to determine if people were joining it simply to get out of vaccinating their children.

"We're not silly," she said...

Christian Science is based on the Bible and explained in writings by 19th century US founder Mary Baker Eddy. Among other things, it believes there is a link between prayer and health - as well as other issues such as global issues and employment.

The religion states it is up to each Christian Science follower to "choose" what health care they want. But many "decide to pray first about every challenge ... and find it effective".

It is not Scientology.

Seems odd then that they are given the sole exception despite the issue not being directly related to any religious practices. Any religious exemptions is the State favoring some religions over others, so there should be zero exemptions to any law.
While I agree that this would be an appropriate principle to apply from an ethical point of view, I feel that I should point out that this attitude is extremely rare amongst governments.

Almost all governments worldwide have no concept of separation of church and state, and religious exemptions and exceptions are endemic. They should not surprise anybody.

I am not surprised by it, I am just saying that exemptions violate the very core of the principle of a secular state, because they inherently constitute religious discrimination and favoritism. Those countries, like the USA, that claim that religious discrimination is not acceptable are violating their own principle by having exceptions.


If there is any questions whether something is important enough for the public interests to warrant restricting religious practice, then it should be a law at all.

BTW, fines and fees are really just a form of "force" and punishment. Ultimately, they cannot be enforced unless backed by a credible threat of physical force (incarceration).
BTW This attitude is illogical and stupid, and despite being popular with the extreme right wing (particularly in the USA), is not recognised as in any way factual by anyone else.


It is an undeniable objective fact of reality. A fine is just a threat of physical force used to coerce payment. People are given no choice but to pay the fine and no choice means being forced. Their sole option to be forcibly put in jail against their will. Show, me a single fine in the law where this is not the case. No one would pay fines if it wasn't.

It amuses me that, having just derided religious exemptions from the law, you immediately point out an irrational belief that you seem to think applies universally to the enforcement of laws.

What is amusing is that a suppossed adult has never given an ounce of rational thought to the inherent foundation of all formal "laws" and what it is that makes any person ever pay a fee or fine.

If fines and fees are 'force', then so are all human interactions; and 'force' is rendered meaningless.
Bullshit. You and I are interacting right now, and we can both freely choose to interact or stop whenever we want without either of us suffering loss of freedom over our bodily movements and actions. That is true of most human interactions. Fines and fees are not paid by free choice, only under threat of punishments that ultimately entail physical bodily force. They are equivalent to a bully who demands your lunch money under physical threat, and if you don't give it, he sits on you and drools on your face until you do. Sure, most smart kids pay up before the physical force happens, but that force is the only reason they do. According to you, such kids have not been forced to give up their lunch money.


Suggestions are not force.
Fees are not suggestions, they are "or else" demands. By definition, suggestions are not "enforced", unlike laws that require fees and fines. How are they enforced? By threat of physical force where a person is bodily constrained against their will to remain in a location with their movements and actions forcibly limited. If fines were "suggestions" then just like "suggested donations" one could and most would choose not to pay them without any consequences.


Being told to eat your greens if you want dessert is not force.

Being told that you won't get a hand out unless you do something to qualify for it is not force.


And neither of those share any similarity with fines and fees. Those are exchanges and one is free to engage in them or not. The consequence is merely not getting some reward that you would prefer to have. With fines and fees, you are not allowed to choose not to pay, because if you do then even more is taken from you up to and including your bodily freedom. You are physically forced to do things and be places you do not want to, if you don't pay (ie., lack of choice).
The only fines that are not rooted in force are those where payment is completely voluntary, and refusal to pay cannot possibly result in any arrest, or jail, or any consequence where you lose willful control over what happens to your bodily person.
 
Apparently Christian Scientists are the only exception, leading to speculation that anti-vaccine parents in Australia may attempt to join that church under false pretenses.

Christian Science Australia spokeswoman Kay Stroud told Fairfax Media that the church was in fact "very neutral on the subject of vaccination" and did not make a suggestion to followers either way.

Ms Stroud also said the church would be able to determine if people were joining it simply to get out of vaccinating their children.

"We're not silly," she said...

Christian Science is based on the Bible and explained in writings by 19th century US founder Mary Baker Eddy. Among other things, it believes there is a link between prayer and health - as well as other issues such as global issues and employment.

The religion states it is up to each Christian Science follower to "choose" what health care they want. But many "decide to pray first about every challenge ... and find it effective".

It is not Scientology.

Seems odd then that they are given the sole exception despite the issue not being directly related to any religious practices. Any religious exemptions is the State favoring some religions over others, so there should be zero exemptions to any law.
While I agree that this would be an appropriate principle to apply from an ethical point of view, I feel that I should point out that this attitude is extremely rare amongst governments.

Almost all governments worldwide have no concept of separation of church and state, and religious exemptions and exceptions are endemic. They should not surprise anybody.

I am not surprised by it, I am just saying that exemptions violate the very core of the principle of a secular state, because they inherently constitute religious discrimination and favoritism. Those countries, like the USA, that claim that religious discrimination is not acceptable are violating their own principle by having exceptions.


If there is any questions whether something is important enough for the public interests to warrant restricting religious practice, then it should be a law at all.

BTW, fines and fees are really just a form of "force" and punishment. Ultimately, they cannot be enforced unless backed by a credible threat of physical force (incarceration).
BTW This attitude is illogical and stupid, and despite being popular with the extreme right wing (particularly in the USA), is not recognised as in any way factual by anyone else.


It is an undeniable objective fact of reality. A fine is just a threat of physical force used to coerce payment. People are given no choice but to pay the fine and no choice means being forced. Their sole option to be forcibly put in jail against their will. Show, me a single fine in the law where this is not the case. No one would pay fines if it wasn't.

It amuses me that, having just derided religious exemptions from the law, you immediately point out an irrational belief that you seem to think applies universally to the enforcement of laws.

What is amusing is that a suppossed adult has never given an ounce of rational thought to the inherent foundation of all formal "laws" and what it is that makes any person ever pay a fee or fine.

If fines and fees are 'force', then so are all human interactions; and 'force' is rendered meaningless.
Bullshit. You and I are interacting right now, and we can both freely choose to interact or stop whenever we want without either of us suffering loss of freedom over our bodily movements and actions. That is true of most human interactions. Fines and fees are not paid by free choice, only under threat of punishments that ultimately entail physical bodily force. They are equivalent to a bully who demands your lunch money under physical threat, and if you don't give it, he sits on you and drools on your face until you do. Sure, most smart kids pay up before the physical force happens, but that force is the only reason they do. According to you, such kids have not been forced to give up their lunch money.


Suggestions are not force.
Fees are not suggestions, they are "or else" demands. By definition, suggestions are not "enforced", unlike laws that require fees and fines. How are they enforced? By threat of physical force where a person is bodily constrained against their will to remain in a location with their movements and actions forcibly limited. If fines were "suggestions" then just like "suggested donations" one could and most would choose not to pay them without any consequences.


Being told to eat your greens if you want dessert is not force.

Being told that you won't get a hand out unless you do something to qualify for it is not force.


And neither of those share any similarity with fines and fees. Those are exchanges and one is free to engage in them or not. The consequence is merely not getting some reward that you would prefer to have. With fines and fees, you are not allowed to choose not to pay, because if you do then even more is taken from you up to and including your bodily freedom. You are physically forced to do things and be places you do not want to, if you don't pay (ie., lack of choice).
The only fines that are not rooted in force are those where payment is completely voluntary, and refusal to pay cannot possibly result in any arrest, or jail, or any consequence where you lose willful control over what happens to your bodily person.

95% of the world population are not Americans. They don't share American ideas or ideals. Your cultural idiosyncrasies are not universal truths. As the law being discussed here does not apply to the USA, you shouldn't expect it to refer in any way to your constitution or ideals.

99.999% of the world population are not American style libertarians. They manage to get by without suggesting that all law is violence, and from their perspective, your rant looks petulant and childish.

And then the Americans wonder why other nations don't welcome their army as liberators. :rolleyesa:

We are not just like you. We don't want to be just like you. If you want to understand the other 95% of the world, then you need to stop assuming that we are just like you.

Did you know that outside the USA, police often go to great effort to avoid killing citizens? Strange but true. I can understand how Americans often confuse 'law' and 'force'. But that the error is understandable does not make it any less erroneous.
 
No it isn't. While on one of their many doctors visits for that condition, their doctor merely signs an official government form verifying that the child has a medically validated risk if vaccinated. The panel I referred to isn't for each individual case but just a national level panel that gets together to create a list of the conditions that pose notable medical risk if a child is vaccinated. That list is on the form that the child's doctor merely uses to indicate the condition the child has. There is zero additional work or cost beyond getting diagnosed with the condition that puts one at risk.

MOST people send their children to school and all states have mandates vaccine schedules with some exemptions, especially medical exemptions already outlined. That already serves as a pretty good way to ensure close to universal vaccination. But not all people send their children to school and can avoid vaccination that way. I am sure there are other ways, as well.

Nearly all states allow non-medical exemptions that amount to nothing more than parents having to say "No, thanks". Around 10% of the national population is not vaccinated for measles and the same for polio, with many states having between 15% to 20% not vaccinated. That is far from "universal" and offers up a feeding ground for outbreaks to occur.

IMO, the best and most cost effective way to get compliance is via education.

Despite massive education efforts, measles vaccines flattened out about 15 years ago at the levels I mentioned above. Some places are getting higher while in other places the anti-vaccine propaganda is working and rates are getting lower. Pockets of sizeable non-vaccinated kids have created increases in outbreaks in recent years. There has been a sizable increase in measles cases with 3 of the last 4 years having more cases than the 10 prior years combined.
measles-cases-616px.jpg


The CDC set a goal of > 95% vaccination in all states by 2020. There is no way that is happening even by 2030 without additional coercion and the elimination of people being able to opt out without any medical reason whatever.

There are risks from all types of vaccinations, be they small. The people who die as a result (or their parents) clearly don't know the risks until it is too late.
No. I would pose that they do know the risks. They just recognize that the vaccine is simply the better gamble. You can't know for certain how dice will fall, but if you have to bet, bet on a seven.

We don't fully know the risks or who will die. A Vaccine that saves 1,000 lives but kills one person is a better form of risk management if it saves 999 from an epidemic. However we still need to do some more research
 
Seattle's polio vaccination rate is lower than Rwanda's.

http://kuow.org/post/seattle-kids-have-lower-polio-vaccination-rate-rwanda


Parents are also increasingly opting out of the polio vaccine. Seventeen years ago, 95.4 percent of kindergarteners in Washington state were vaccinated for polio.

This year, 88.4 percent had the vaccine.


It’s even more dramatic in Seattle, where 81.4 percent of kindergarteners have been vaccinated for polio. That’s lower than the 2013 polio immunization rates for 1-year-olds in Zimbabwe, Rwanda, Algeria, El Salvador, Guyana, Sudan, Iran, Kyrgyzstan, Mongolia and Yemen, among other countries, according to data from the World Health Organization.

“We're concerned because we need to have about 95 percent of those kids vaccinated to protect everybody else who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons or because they're too young,” Throne said.
 
Vaccinations cause my kidneys to stop working. I only had the first round when I was a child. There are other people like me so fuck anyone that wants to impose a death sentence on innocent people. That's what no exceptions means.
No, actually the woo-anti-vac people are putting you at risk. When a large percentage of people is immunized (except those like you that can't sue to medical reasons) you benefit from "herd immunity". If the percentage of people who get immunized drops (for example due to a New Agey misinformation campaign) the effectiveness of herd immunity drops as well.
 
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