Historical Jesus

[steve_bank]

And we can see what Jewish nationalism/Zionism is doing in the Mid East.

Today as 2000 years ago Jews are sowing the seeds of their own destruction. Today support for Israel is diminishing in the wake of the brutal actions fostered by Zionism.

Hinduism still exists and predates Jews by a long time.

I have herd this from Evangelicals, Jews are the source of everything, Math, science, writing.

Jews are still around as are other cultures. The Jewish myth embellished in the bible is one of power and glory. The reality is they were repeatedly overrun by other cultures.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Guess what! Some of the stories in the Gospels are FICTIONAL !!!

Why not all?

 

[TomC]

Anyone can look at the last 3000 years of history and see that if there is a God, he doesn't much care for the people of Abraham.

From the Assyrians to the Chaldeans to the Romans to the Germans to the Muslims, about anyone can smite the Jews and God doesn't care.

Actually, to me this is one small point in favor of Judeo-Christianity. Almost every evil empire in human history has tried to oppress or eliminate the Jews. And they didn't just survive, they are now thriving (both in their own state, and dispersed throughout the West).

I don't see it that way.
For one thing, I see Judaism as quite different from it's heretical offspring, Islam and Christianity. Those religions were designed to be weapons for the elite, from the Roman Emperors to Arabic Warlords. Judaism was, once upon a time, but that ended over 2000 years ago.

I don't care that much about stuff that happened that long ago.

And frankly, as a group, I find Jewish people the most generally "live and let live" of modern Abrahamics. Not all, but generally so.
Tom

 

[steve_bank]

Muhammad weaponized his religion.In the Koran religion and state are one and the same.

 

[bilby]

Let's digress and play a parlor game.

No, let's not. I am as disinterested in your stupid games as I am in your failure to grasp the point I am making.

Your list of names is a distraction.

Jesus may or may not have actually existed; But if he did exist, the question is "Did he do the things he is famous for?". We can (and should) ask this question of any historical character.

Jesus is famous for miracles. He is also famous for being a minor revolutionary.

He didn't do miracles. He may (or may not) have done revolt against Imperial Rome.

My position is that in the case that all he did was the latter, he deserves exactly the level of fame as similar figures - for example Wat Tyler - who fomented revolution and got killed for their trouble.

His current fame is out of all proportion to his historical actions; Nobody should care much about him. Most people have never heard of Wat Tyler. The world would be a better place if more had heard of Tyler, and fewer of Jesus.

Fuck Jesus. The little shit is sucking all the air out of the room, and making the job of actually understanding history needlessly difficult.

 

[Learner]

Anyone can look at the last 3000 years of history and see that if there is a God, he doesn't much care for the people of Abraham.

From the Assyrians to the Chaldeans to the Romans to the Germans to the Muslims, about anyone can smite the Jews and God doesn't care.

Actually, to me this is one small point in favor of Judeo-Christianity. Almost every evil empire in human history has tried to oppress or eliminate the Jews. And they didn't just survive, they are now thriving (both in their own state, and dispersed throughout the West).

I don't see it that way.
For one thing, I see Judaism as quite different from it's heretical offspring, Islam and Christianity. Those religions were designed to be weapons for the elite, from the Roman Emperors to Arabic Warlords. J

This design you mention Tom by the Romans, didn't work the way they expected it would seem. A not so well thought out plan, being that Jesus went in the direction of being more of a weapon against all the elements of Roman tradition. An invention to give Jesus the title 'King of kings' is quite counter productive to Rome. A Jewish king above caesar of the whole Roman empire? This weapon invented by Romans has turned an Abrahamic God of the Jews into being woshipped and adored in place of the many Roman gods, reducing them to redundancy.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Fuck Jesus. The little shit is sucking all the air out of the room, and making the job of actually understanding history needlessly difficult.

My friends are always telling me about these spirits that visit them and how they see a spirit and then it is gone. They wax on and on about a relative or ancestor visiting them in the form of a bird or a gust of wind or a noise in the house. "Historical Jesus" is derived from the miracle stories we have. People have told me about how Jesus "rose from the dead" and that its historical fact.

So the problem isn't Jesus anymore than it's a devil or a succubus or the historical Clark Kent or those creaky noises our homes make sometimes.

 

[ideologyhunter]

It cracks me up how Jesus is accomodated into the culture by the 'social Christians' I know -- those who don't seem to read the Bible at all, rarely go to church, but would assert their Christian identity if asked. If you asked them if a pro forma prayer read to a class in public school would be a good thing, many would say yes. Jesus? He called it hypocrisy. Or they tell you how their kids have live-in arrangements with their partners, which is fornication in the NT. Or how casually divorce is treated -- which I think it should be, it's always a positive outcome for people who can't accept each other -- but it's the same as adultery to Jesus, if you divorce and remarry. A capital offense in his world. Kim Davis Syndrome.

 

[TomC]

Anyone can look at the last 3000 years of history and see that if there is a God, he doesn't much care for the people of Abraham.

From the Assyrians to the Chaldeans to the Romans to the Germans to the Muslims, about anyone can smite the Jews and God doesn't care.

Actually, to me this is one small point in favor of Judeo-Christianity. Almost every evil empire in human history has tried to oppress or eliminate the Jews. And they didn't just survive, they are now thriving (both in their own state, and dispersed throughout the West).

I don't see it that way.
For one thing, I see Judaism as quite different from it's heretical offspring, Islam and Christianity. Those religions were designed to be weapons for the elite, from the Roman Emperors to Arabic Warlords. J

This design you mention Tom by the Romans, didn't work the way they expected it would seem. A not so well thought out plan, being that Jesus went in the direction of being more of a weapon against all the elements of Roman tradition. An invention to give Jesus the title 'King of kings' is quite counter productive to Rome. A Jewish king above caesar of the whole Roman empire? This weapon invented by Romans has turned an Abrahamic God of the Jews into being woshipped and adored in place of the many Roman gods, reducing them to redundancy.

Sure it did.
It worked superbly.

The Roman elite wanted a religion that could be weaponized. Christianity fit the bill. A vague sort of mythic hero who could be shaped to suit the purpose.

Traditional Greco-Roman gods and goddesses wouldn't work for the purpose. They were too numerous and too freewheeling. There was a god image to suit everyone with no reason to fight about anything.
Once they'd replaced Jesus with Christ, Christianity could be used to facilitate their power. Christ was a Greco-Roman demigod, part of a pantheon, and could be used as a symbol of "obey or die" morality. Jesus, the anti-Roman activist, was simply ignored.

Christianity became the religion of slaves.
Tom

 

[steve_bank]

Anyone can look at the last 3000 years of history and see that if there is a God, he doesn't much care for the people of Abraham.

From the Assyrians to the Chaldeans to the Romans to the Germans to the Muslims, about anyone can smite the Jews and God doesn't care.

Actually, to me this is one small point in favor of Judeo-Christianity. Almost every evil empire in human history has tried to oppress or eliminate the Jews. And they didn't just survive, they are now thriving (both in their own state, and dispersed throughout the West).

I don't see it that way.
For one thing, I see Judaism as quite different from it's heretical offspring, Islam and Christianity. Those religions were designed to be weapons for the elite, from the Roman Emperors to Arabic Warlords. J

This design you mention Tom by the Romans, didn't work the way they expected it would seem. A not so well thought out plan, being that Jesus went in the direction of being more of a weapon against all the elements of Roman tradition. An invention to give Jesus the title 'King of kings' is quite counter productive to Rome. A Jewish king above caesar of the whole Roman empire? This weapon invented by Romans has turned an Abrahamic God of the Jews into being woshipped and adored in place of the many Roman gods, reducing them to redundancy.

Here we go with dueling quotes. Jesus said give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to god what is god's.

Certainly counter to Jewish nationals and Zionism of the day. Jews were lookng for the retrn of a king in a royal line that would restore them to power. Think Trump's slogan MAGA make America great again.

It points again to he gospel Jesus being a conflation of people and events, and Greek and Roman influence in how the gospels were written.

There may have been a radical Jew crucified with a sign 'king of the Jews', and others my have been others generally refereed to as Jesus in the gospels.


If there was a singular HJ that led to a movenmet that became Christianity who he may have been is not derivable from the gospels.

 

[steve_bank]

Anyone can look at the last 3000 years of history and see that if there is a God, he doesn't much care for the people of Abraham.

From the Assyrians to the Chaldeans to the Romans to the Germans to the Muslims, about anyone can smite the Jews and God doesn't care.

Actually, to me this is one small point in favor of Judeo-Christianity. Almost every evil empire in human history has tried to oppress or eliminate the Jews. And they didn't just survive, they are now thriving (both in their own state, and dispersed throughout the West).

I don't see it that way.
For one thing, I see Judaism as quite different from it's heretical offspring, Islam and Christianity. Those religions were designed to be weapons for the elite, from the Roman Emperors to Arabic Warlords. J

This design you mention Tom by the Romans, didn't work the way they expected it would seem. A not so well thought out plan, being that Jesus went in the direction of being more of a weapon against all the elements of Roman tradition. An invention to give Jesus the title 'King of kings' is quite counter productive to Rome. A Jewish king above caesar of the whole Roman empire? This weapon invented by Romans has turned an Abrahamic God of the Jews into being woshipped and adored in place of the many Roman gods, reducing them to redundancy.

Sure it did.
It worked superbly.

The Roman elite wanted a religion that could be weaponized. Christianity fit the bill. A vague sort of mythic hero who could be shaped to suit the purpose.

Traditional Greco-Roman gods and goddesses wouldn't work for the purpose. They were too numerous and too freewheeling. There was a god image to suit everyone with no reason to fight about anything.
Once they'd replaced Jesus with Christ, Christianity could be used to facilitate their power. Christ was a Greco-Roman demigod, part of a pantheon, and could be used as a symbol of "obey or die" morality. Jesus, the anti-Roman activist, was simply ignored.

Christianity became the religion of slaves.
Tom

IOW Constantine.

 

[TomC]

IOW Constantine.

Not just him, but mostly.
Tom

 

[TomC]

There may have been a radical Jew crucified with a sign 'king of the Jews', and others my have been others generally refereed to as Jesus in the gospels.

The first century name that has become Jesus was quite common.
There were undoubtedly many people who matched the anti-Roman parts of the Jesus biography who shared the name. Maybe more than one was crucified within a few years of each other.

There's no way to tell, based on the tiny scraps of badly recorded story left after a few decades, much less all these centuries.
Tom

 

[TomC]

Here we go with dueling quotes. Jesus said give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to god what is god's.

Have you ever imagined Jesus telling that story out of both sides of His mouth? I find it difficult not to do so.

Start with the question, why would someone ask Him that? The most obvious answer is because someone wanted Him to either commit actionable treason or contradict His anti-Roman activist teachings. But wily Jesus talked out of both sides of His mouth. He did neither and both.

Imagine Jesus telling that story, and emphasizing the "render unto Caesar" part with a pantomimed sword thrust to the gut. The story would take on a whole new meaning. At least, to the audience of the moment.
Tom

 

[steve_bank]

Anything is possible, we only have to look at religion and politics today. I doubt therre is much basic indigence between today and 2000 years ago. Corruption, intrigue, money, and power.

From all the forum discussions I have a half dozen or so possible HJs. One might be an educated Roman Jew who went to Israel to save Jews from fostering their own destruction. Jerusalem was not the only Jewish community in the empire. From what I read there were disputes between Assyrian Jews and Jerusalem Jews over who were the 'real' Jews descended form the original tribes.

In a philosophy comparative religion class that there were multiple claimants to the Jewish prophesy of a king, some bandits was covered.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

From all the forum discussions I have a half dozen or so possible HJs.

Philo of Alexandria never heard of the guy. It's like an American Civil War historian never mentioning Ulysses S Grant.

 

[Learner]

Anyone can look at the last 3000 years of history and see that if there is a God, he doesn't much care for the people of Abraham.

From the Assyrians to the Chaldeans to the Romans to the Germans to the Muslims, about anyone can smite the Jews and God doesn't care.

Actually, to me this is one small point in favor of Judeo-Christianity. Almost every evil empire in human history has tried to oppress or eliminate the Jews. And they didn't just survive, they are now thriving (both in their own state, and dispersed throughout the West).

I don't see it that way.
For one thing, I see Judaism as quite different from it's heretical offspring, Islam and Christianity. Those religions were designed to be weapons for the elite, from the Roman Emperors to Arabic Warlords. J

This design you mention Tom by the Romans, didn't work the way they expected it would seem. A not so well thought out plan, being that Jesus went in the direction of being more of a weapon against all the elements of Roman tradition. An invention to give Jesus the title 'King of kings' is quite counter productive to Rome. A Jewish king above caesar of the whole Roman empire? This weapon invented by Romans has turned an Abrahamic God of the Jews into being woshipped and adored in place of the many Roman gods, reducing them to redundancy.

Sure it did.
It worked superbly.

The Roman elite wanted a religion that could be weaponized. Christianity fit the bill. A vague sort of mythic hero who could be shaped to suit the purpose.

It worked for Christianity more so that's for sure now that many people get to hear about it - most effect when news travels faster through connecting nations throughout an empire. Besides, the Romans already had a culture that dominated the ancient world before a Jewish God was introduced (goimg by your proposed theory).

Traditional Greco-Roman gods and goddesses wouldn't work for the purpose. They were too numerous and too freewheeling. There was a god image to suit everyone with no reason to fight about anything.

Christianity was already established without the Romans (who eventually ook over much later). The phrase 'If you can't beat them join them' in a manner of speaking, is how I would see it, especially when you're an empire and are unable to stop your citizens converting without force, just by hearing about Christ.

Once they'd replaced Jesus with Christ, Christianity could be used to facilitate their power. Christ was a Greco-Roman demigod, part of a pantheon, and could be used as a symbol of "obey or die" morality. Jesus, the anti-Roman activist, was simply ignored.

Christianity became the religion of slaves.
Tom

Christianity is a big pain to dictatorships. like it has been for atheist nation states or any other nations sytstem of belief. If Believers are willing to die for their belief then what control as a tyrant can you have over them? It was written about 'outside of the bible' by Romans describing Roman soldiers becoming believers themselves, refusing to fight for Rome anymore, once they converted - even dying with the Christians.

I agree about power hungry people under the guise of Christianity who evidently do the opposite to what Christ teaches. This is pretty much when one can use the label Christianity for negative 'modus operandi' agendas. Much like the abundant charities existing out there for the good. - while the odd few under the guise of being charities sometimes get exposed as deceitful scams and are not really charities at all!

 

[Learner]

IOW Constantine.

Churches were already established 'centuries' before him. Pauls letters to the churches? Unfrotunately no prize here for originality regarding Constantine.

 

[Politesse]

From all the forum discussions I have a half dozen or so possible HJs.

Philo of Alexandria never heard of the guy. It's like an American Civil War historian never mentioning Ulysses S Grant.

If he was a philosopher rather than a historian, and was a man of Cree extraction living in Ottawa, and you were using some brief treatises he wrote on First Nations history to prove that General Stand Watie never existed, the comparison would be apt.

 

[steve_bank]

IOW Constantine.

Churches were already established 'centuries' before him. Pauls letters to the churches? Unfrotunately no prize here for originality regarding Constantine.

During Comstantine's reign Christians were violently clashing over theology. To put a stop to t he fosterd a conference that led to compromise among the Christian powers. Anything contrary to the new synthesis was harshly suppressed.

The Council of Nicaea was the first council in the history of the Christian church that was intended to address the entire body of believers. It was convened by the emperor Constantine to resolve the controversy of Arianism, a doctrine that held that Christ was not divine but was a created being.Feb 13, 2024

First Council of Nicaea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

What you have inherited as g3nreal Christianity today has nothing to do with an HJ, it was a geophysical compromise, politics among Christian powers. All the other interpretations were suppressed. Contrary writings were destroyed so we do not know a lot abuot allthe variatioss that existed.

From the get go through today Christians were conflicting with each other, they were not hugging each other in universal love. Today a majpr Chrtian split over rproductivee rights, both sides agitated and emotional ad combative,.
Te North Ireland 'troubles'. The Russian church does not tolerate ompetition for followerts.

One man iuuse was whether Jesus was divine ior human.

The basic Christian doctrine going forward was and is the Nicene Creed,

Nicene Creed - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Nicene Creed
We believe in one God,
the Father, the almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is,
seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven;
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to com