Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Copernicus]

You can't tell millions of people to displace to somewhere else and then just leave them there with little in the way of support for this they'd need due to said displacement.

Sure you can.
Just ask Hamas, Egypt, UN, Iran...

Really, the list of people who want Gazans to die rather than give up the power they hold in the international community is huge.

Back, 75 years ago, it would have been better to produce a better place for Zionists to move to than The Holy Land. But all those people didn't. Now, it's better if they find a better place for Palestinians than The Holy Land.

How about that? Do what is best for the civilians who are just trying to live a life and feed their kids. Currently, that would be opening the border to Egypt.
Tom

Tom, Egypt, the UN, and Iran do not control what happens in the Gaza Strip, and Hamas only ever had administrative control at the pleasure of the Israeli government. That territory has been under Israeli control for decades, and it is Israel that is responsible for the wellbeing of the population that lives there. Israel controls the food, water, and power supplied to the Gaza Strip. It is not surprising that Egypt and Jordan refuse to be a party to any plans for ethnic cleansing of Palestinian enclaves that remain under the control of Israel.

 

[lpetrich]

Canada will restore funding to UNRWA, the embattled UN agency in Gaza | AP News

Canada will restore funding to the United Nations relief agency for Palestinians, weeks after the agency, known as UNRWA, lost hundreds of millions of dollars in support following Israeli allegations against some of its staffers in Gaza.

Canada was one of 16 countries that temporarily halted future payments.

Canada, Sweden Restore UNRWA Funds as Report Accuses Israel of Torturing Agency Staff

Sweden made its announcement Saturday and said a $20 million disbursement would be made to help UNRWA regain its financial footing.

The restoration of funds follows weeks of global criticism and protest for the decision by many Western nations to withhold UNRWA funds after Israel claimed, without presenting evidence, that a few members of the agency—the largest employer in the Gaza Strip—had participated in the Hamas-led attacks of October 7.

As a result, UNRWA has said it's ability to provide aid and services to Gaza—where over 100,000 people have been killed or wounded in five months of constant bombardment and blockade by the Israeli military—has been pushed to the "breaking point" as malnutrition and starvation has been documented among the displaced population of over 2 million people.

UNRWA report claims some agency employees admitted Hamas ties under Israeli coercion | The Times of Israel - "11-page document says detained staffers tortured by military to make false accusations, though agency does not provide transcripts of interviews with freed prisoners or evidence"

 

[Derec]

Canada, Sweden Restore UNRWA Funds as Report Accuses Israel of Torturing Agency Staff

Not good. UNRWA is a toxic entity through and through. Even beside the fact that many of its employees are Hamas, and some of them participated in the 10/7 massacre, the whole idea of having an UN agency solely devoted to Palestinians, with a definition of "refugee" not applied to any other population, is just mind-boggling. UNRWA should have been abolished and its functions folded into UNHCR decades ago.

As far as torture (Common Dreams is a far-left and rabidly anti-Israel website btw.), Palestinians always claim that. It's their go-to accusation whenever one of their terrorists admits to anything in interrogation.

 

[Derec]

Tom, Egypt, the UN, and Iran do not control what happens in the Gaza Strip,

Iran is the puppet master of both Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Hamas runs Gaza, and Islamic Jihad is a prominent terror group active there.

and Hamas only ever had administrative control at the pleasure of the Israeli government.

BS. Israel did (foolishly) disengage from Gaza in 2005, but after that they did not have control over which faction would win out.

That territory has been under Israeli control for decades, and it is Israel that is responsible for the wellbeing of the population that lives there.

BS again. Israel left Gaza in 2005. Hamas took over, and thus they have responsibility.

Israel controls the food, water, and power supplied to the Gaza Strip.

They could also buy these things from Egypt. Hell, if they hadn't started the "2nd Initfada" they'd have a functioning airport as well as a seaport to move people and goods.

That said, one big problem with supplying Gaza is that Palestinian politicians have long encouraged Palestinians to have as many children as possible, as a demographic weapon against Israel. Having more than five children is hardly rare in Gaza. Population of Gaza was 340k in 1970 and it is 2.4M now. Such exponential growth is hardly sustainable, but Gaza still has one of the highest birth rates (27.5/1000/year, 38th in the world), while having one of the lowest death rates (3 deaths/1000/year, 225th in the world) although this has temporarily increased somewhat due to the ongoing conflict. Total fertility rate is ~3.4 per woman, but it was >5 not too long ago and whopping 8 as recently as early 1990s.
World Factbook - Gaza Strip

I strongly suspect that the recent decrease of the fertility rate has more to do with dire economic conditions since Hamas took over (as well as expensive weddings {btw, why is the little girl in the wedding cosplaying as Yasser Arafat?}) and less with Gazans not being willing to wield the demographic sword any more.
In any case, while the population growth has slowed, it is still going on, and in any case, the damage to resources like the coastal aquifer has been done.

It is not surprising that Egypt and Jordan refuse to be a party to any plans for ethnic cleansing of Palestinian enclaves that remain under the control of Israel.

These are their Arab brethren. Why should US and EU take in Palestinians, but not the Arab countries? Biden even declared that no Palestinians here illegally will be deported. Italy doesn't even want to extradite Palestinian terrorists it caught recently. Madness!

 

[Patooka]

Even beside the fact that many of its employees are Hamas

This is the first time I've ever heard less than 0.5% being described as "many".

 

[steve_bank]

Biden is ding the usual political two step. Hey come on Netanyahu I as POTUS am very unhappy about 30,000 casualties, but not to worry I'll keep the weapons flowing.

Why is he taking the Hamas figures seriously?
How the Gaza Ministry of Health Fakes Casualty Numbers

Hamas must be destroyed, or else they will keep attacking Israel.

The issue of slavery and Jim Crow still hangs around our necks as a moral failure. The incarceration of and seizure of property of Japanese Americans in WWII. Genocide of Native Americans.

What does any of that have to do with Israel defending itself from naked aggression by Gaza?

Gaza will go down in history as one of our greatest moral failures. The eradication of a people.

Eradication of a people? The Gaza, after the war, will be very different than when they started the war on 10/7.
But there is no "eradication of a people". Even using Hamas numbers, 30k is just over 1% of Gaza population.

Starve the kids and there is no future for Palestinians in Gaza.

Let them eat cake! Literally:
Cake in the time of war, in Gaza

Or meat, which is also available.


If you read Al Jazeera et al, you'd think there was no food at all in all of Gaza. In reality, many trucks enter through Kerem Shalom every day.

And we wonder why people in the Mid East hate us Americans.

They hate a lot of people. Jews, Americans, women who refuse to wear hijabs or burkas ...

Biden is the stereotypical career double talking politician.

There has been some discussion as to why Hamas exists and taggers Israel. Israel plays the victim and Amerces have bought the propaganda. Hetanyahu has been playing our politicians like a violin for years. He is an expert political manipulator. He tried to maneuver Obama into attacking Iran and Obama did not tale the bait.

Israel is not a victim. After the founding Israel clouded with the Er opens to invade Egypt.

The attacks on Israel are the result of Israeli treatment of Palestinians form the start. Seizure of land and no right of return to land owned and occupied by non Jews. Seizures of land for occupation by Israelis.

Our Mid East foreign poly is a a moral and ethical cesspool. Saudi Arabia is not much different than Iran, but SA is 'our oppressive Islamic state. And their oil is important. SA schools have been lnwn to teach anti Amercan views. It was taught in SA funded relgious schools in the USA.

It goes back to the Cold War. We supported Chang Kai-sheks's fascist regime in Taiwan because he was anti communist.

We toppled the democrtclly elected leader of Iran because he might nationalize oil, and intaled the brutal opressive dictator Shah. An Iranin imgrant told me before that Iatrnians liked Amercans.

Iraq seized Kuwait and we went to war. Isrerl siezes Plaestinian land and we look the other way.

And we wonder why people in the Mid East conspire to harm us.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Even beside the fact that many of its employees are Hamas

This is the first time I've ever heard less than 0.5% being described as "many".

It isn't many for civilian death toll, but it is for UN staffing.

 

[TomC]

Tom, Egypt, the UN, and Iran do not control what happens in the Gaza Strip,

Of course they do. Egypt closed the border. UN staff helped with the terrorist attacks on October 7. Iran has been funding Islamic violence in Gaza for years.

Hamas only ever had administrative control at the pleasure of the Israeli government.

Nonsense. Hamas won the election in 2006. They've been funded ever since by other islamicists.

That territory has been under Israeli control for decades, and it is Israel that is responsible for the wellbeing of the population that lives there.

Nonsense. Had Israel been in control Gaza wouldn't have a stockpile of 10K missiles, launchers, and the network of tunnels it did.

Israel controls the food, water, and power supplied to the Gaza Strip.

If Gazan leadership had invested in caring for the people instead of launching attacks on Israel those wouldn't be a problem.

It is not surprising that Egypt and Jordan refuse to be a party to any plans for ethnic cleansing of Palestinian enclaves that remain under the control of Israel.

Nevertheless, whatever their reasons for keeping Gazans trapped there, it is resulting in thousands of deaths.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Whatever the reasons? It is obvious. Egypt doesn't want poor Gazans moving to Egypt permanently. The Gazans cross the border you think Israel is letting them back?

 

[TomC]

Whatever the reasons? It is obvious. Egypt doesn't want poor Gazans moving to Egypt permanently. The Gazans cross the border you think Israel is letting them back?

So, it's okay for Egypt to let them suffer and die?
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Whatever the reasons? It is obvious. Egypt doesn't want poor Gazans moving to Egypt permanently. The Gazans cross the border you think Israel is letting them back?

So, it's okay for Egypt to let them suffer and die?
Tom

That question is based on the dubioys premises that
1) it is Egypt’s responsibility to care for Gazans wishing to leave Gaza, and
2) the suffering and death occurring in Gaza are not in any way related to Israeli actions.

 

[TomC]

Whatever the reasons? It is obvious. Egypt doesn't want poor Gazans moving to Egypt permanently. The Gazans cross the border you think Israel is letting them back?

So, it's okay for Egypt to let them suffer and die?
Tom

That question is based on the dubioys premises that
1) it is Egypt’s responsibility to care for Gazans wishing to leave Gaza, and
2) the suffering and death occurring in Gaza are not in any way related to Israeli actions.

No, it's based on the observation that fewer Gazans would suffer and die in comparably safe Egypt than in Hamas dominated Gaza.
Tom

 

[Copernicus]

Tom, Egypt, the UN, and Iran do not control what happens in the Gaza Strip,

Of course they do. Egypt closed the border. UN staff helped with the terrorist attacks on October 7. Iran has been funding Islamic violence in Gaza for years.

Closing the border doesn't control what happens in the Gaza Strip. It does prevent Egypt from having to take on the responsibility of dealing with a stampede of refugees. And it seems to have escaped your attention that Israel itself was complicit in the financial buildup of Hamas, because that is exactly what split the Palestinian opposition to colonization of the West Bank by illegal Israeli settlement projects. The Likud government was fully aware of who was in control.

Hamas only ever had administrative control at the pleasure of the Israeli government.

Nonsense. Hamas won the election in 2006. They've been funded ever since by other islamicists.

And how many elections did it win after that? None. Israel didn't care, because they were content to leave Hamas in control of its large concentration camp, which was not permitted a seaport or an airport. Power, water, and supplies into Gaza were always under the control of the Israeli government. They may have let their guard down over time, but they always could have found ways to remove Hamas, if they felt that had been in their interest. As it turns out, Hamas was perceived as serving a purpose.

That territory has been under Israeli control for decades, and it is Israel that is responsible for the wellbeing of the population that lives there.

Nonsense. Had Israel been in control Gaza wouldn't have a stockpile of 10K missiles, launchers, and the network of tunnels it did.

Not all of the materials used were imported. Hamas was able to smuggle in many weapons, but they also developed a homegrown manufacturing capability, including rockets made from repurposed infrastructure materials. The network of tunnels was done under Israeli noses, and it was useful for smuggling. My point, however, was that Israel essentially supplied water, power, and the import of humanitarian aid (food and medical supplies). Israel was responsible for the wellbeing of the population that lived there.

Israel controls the food, water, and power supplied to the Gaza Strip.

If Gazan leadership had invested in caring for the people instead of launching attacks on Israel those wouldn't be a problem.

Oh, but Hamas did invest in caring for the people, which was an important aspect of their control over the population. They also invested in building up a lethal capability to carry out the massive attack on October 7, which would never have happened if the Likud government had taken them as a serious threat. Netanyahu was too preoccupied with expanding settlements in the West Bank to pay attention, and he is now widely blamed in Israel for that policy.

It is not surprising that Egypt and Jordan refuse to be a party to any plans for ethnic cleansing of Palestinian enclaves that remain under the control of Israel.

Nevertheless, whatever their reasons for keeping Gazans trapped there, it is resulting in thousands of deaths.
Tom

Yes, but Egypt and Jordan are not in a position to stop Israel from actually killing those thousands of Palestinians other than to submit to Israel's desire to use them as a dumping ground for Palestinian refugees. Jordan already hosts over 3 million Palestinians. Neither Jordan nor Egypt is prepared for the burden of taking on responsibility for everyone who wants to flee the devastation being caused by Israel. Once the Gaza Strip is cleansed, all of those who fled to Egyptian Gaza territory would then be Egypt's responsibility care for. Israel could then forget about them, except that they would then need to worry about a buildup of an angry population there looking for revenge against Israel.

 

[TomC]

Closing the border doesn't control what happens in the Gaza Strip.

Neither did closing the border with Israel.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Whatever the reasons? It is obvious. Egypt doesn't want poor Gazans moving to Egypt permanently. The Gazans cross the border you think Israel is letting them back?

So, it's okay for Egypt to let them suffer and die?
Tom

No. WTF does that have to do with my response? I explained WHY the nation of Egypt doesn't want the Gazans.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Whatever the reasons? It is obvious. Egypt doesn't want poor Gazans moving to Egypt permanently. The Gazans cross the border you think Israel is letting them back?

So, it's okay for Egypt to let them suffer and die?
Tom

That question is based on the dubioys premises that
1) it is Egypt’s responsibility to care for Gazans wishing to leave Gaza, and
2) the suffering and death occurring in Gaza are not in any way related to Israeli actions.

No, it's based on the observation that fewer Gazans would suffer and die in comparably safe Egypt than in Hamas dominated Gaza.
Tom

This reads like a justification for the permanent relocation of the Gazan people.

 

[TomC]

Whatever the reasons? It is obvious. Egypt doesn't want poor Gazans moving to Egypt permanently. The Gazans cross the border you think Israel is letting them back?

So, it's okay for Egypt to let them suffer and die?
Tom

No. WTF does that have to do with my response? I explained WHY the nation of Egypt doesn't want the Gazans.

Do you understand why the Israeli government doesn't want the Gazans?

The decades of violence and the October 7 attack makes that obvious.

But my question was about whether Egypt's anti-Palestinian border closure is a moral issue. Given the circumstances, it seems like one. Egypt doesn't have the problem of a huge terrorist attack explaining why they prefer that Gazans suffer and die in Gaza.
Tom

 

[TomC]

This reads like a justification for the permanent relocation of the Gazan people.

But it isn't.
If Gazans got rid of the violent terrorists who run Gaza, things could be very different.
In a generation or two.
But it's not going to happen right away. I'm talking about dealing with the here and now.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Whatever the reasons? It is obvious. Egypt doesn't want poor Gazans moving to Egypt permanently. The Gazans cross the border you think Israel is letting them back?

So, it's okay for Egypt to let them suffer and die?
Tom

No. WTF does that have to do with my response? I explained WHY the nation of Egypt doesn't want the Gazans.

Do you understand why the Israeli government doesn't want the Gazans?

Careful, you are using labels very poorly as the Israeli Government is highly fractured.

There are very likely plenty in the Israeli Government that do not want the Gazans to leave.

There are people in the Israeli Government that want to force the Gazans out. This likely includes Netanyahu.

Neither of these opinions center around Hamas.

The decades of violence and the October 7 attack makes that obvious.

Does it? Netanyahu has been against a two state solution for decades, well before the atrocities of October 7th.

But my question was about whether Egypt's anti-Palestinian border closure is a moral issue. Given the circumstances, it seems like one.

There are a lot of moral issues at the moment. Concentrating on just Egypt isn't particularly useful. Hamas' intentional and atrocious failure, Netanyahu's failing, and Egypt's failings are all part of one cosmically large stew of sewage. Each side, quite justified in their minds of their actions, none of which gives a damn about the others.

 

[TomC]

Concentrating on just Egypt isn't particularly useful.

I didn't concentrate on Egypt, that was someone else. I mentioned them along with many others, like the UN and Iran.

What we are talking about here is the fact that Gazans are suffering and dying in Gaza when they would be far safer and have more access to aid in Egypt. That is a fact.
Tom