Arctish
Centimillionaire
3) that it would be okay for Egypt to attack Israel in order to stop the suffering and dying in Gaza, seeing as how Egypt is being criticized for letting it happen.
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TomC
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What the hell is that supposed to mean?
Egypt has attacked Israel in the recent (historically) past. It didn't turn out well for them.
How would attacking Israel "stop the suffering and dying in Gaza"?
Sorry if reality intrudes on your preferred world view, but there's no way Egypt can use force against Israel in a way that would benefit anyone, least of all Gazans.
Tom
Arctish
Centimillionaire
Gazans would also be safer and have more access to aid in refugee facilities in Ashkelon. Heck, they'd be safer and have more access to aid right there in Gaza if Israel stopped bombing and shelling the part of the Strip where it told them to go to seek safety.
Arctish
Centimillionaire
You appeared to be criticizing Egypt for not taking action to stop the suffering and dying in Gaza. I suggested an action Egypt might take to pressure Netanyahu to stop bombing and shelling refugee centers and to allow humanitarian aid to be delivered.
TomC
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Sorry if reality intrudes again but no they won't.
It doesn't matter how much you want Israel to take responsibility for the disaster brought about by violent Islamic terrorists. They are not going to do it because it would be tantamount to social suicide. It would be helping the Islamicists achieve their goals of genocide and destruction of Israelis.
Tom
TomC
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Egypt could end it.
Israel has very good reasons for continuing the destruction of the Gazan military installations.
Why do you think that this time an Egyptian attack on Israel will work? Egyptian attacks are a big part of the reason that Israelis aren't willing to take responsibility for the disaster caused by violent Islamic terrorists.
Tom
Arctish
Centimillionaire
I take it you're in the 'Palestinians are inherently evil and would poison our blood' camp.
it's true that Israel would cease to be a Jewish State if it were to accept non-Jews as full citizens and respect the Right of Return and the Rights of refugees. But the State of Israel won't cease to exist if Gazan orphans and mothers with young children move into refugee camps in the Ashkelon area. Israel is pretty darn proud of its ability to take in waves of immigrants and provide housing for them. And it's not like Israel would be footing the bill, either.
So racism and religious bigotry aside, what's the problem?
TomC
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No
But I can understand why you prefer to misrepresent me rather than discuss what I actually post.
Tom
laughing dog
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Fewer Gazans would suffer or die in just about any civilized area on Earth. So what again was your point?
TomC
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That Gazan civilians would be far better off in a safer place than Gaza.
Egypt won't allow that.
That's my point.
Tom
Copernicus
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But I think that is what Jimmy meant about concentrating on Egypt, regardless of who brought the subject up earlier. You see Egypt as obstructing a solution to the problem by not letting hundreds of thousands of Palestinians flee into their territory, thus lending legitimacy to Israel's proposed policy of ethnic cleansing. And you blame Egypt for not being complicit in that policy, because you believe it is the best way for the fighting to end. As opposed to blaming Israel for not engaging in a ceasefire and negotiations to free hostages. That would be a better solution for saving lives, because it would not require any action on Egypt's part.
Perhaps another way to solve the problem would be for Israel to cede the Gaza Strip to Egypt. Make it Egyptian territory with Egyptian troops to take over security and the Egyptian government to administer it. Egypt might balk at that, but then again, they would be getting new territory added to their national boundaries. Israel has peace treaties in place with Egypt, and those would help guarantee its security. Similarly, Jordan could simply be given the West Bank, eliminating that problem for Israel. The illegal settlers would have to move into the boundaries of Israel or become citizens of Jordan. Wouldn't that make everyone happy? (Ha. Ha. Just kidding. I know it wouldn't. There is no simple solution to this mess.)
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How about the US then? They could easily gain refugee status.
Arctish
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I agree that Gazan civilians would be better off in a safer place than Gaza. I agree that Egypt won't allow the relocation of Gazan civilians to Egypt. I believe where we disagree is criticizing Egypt for that.
Egypt will not allow Israel to escape its responsibilities under the Geneva Convention, nor will it be complicit in the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, at least for now. In the past, Israel's allies have employed a combination of bribes and arm twisting to get neighboring countries to go along with Israel's expansion in the West Bank, and briefly into Gaza and southern Lebanon as well. Those allies _might_ put pressure on Egypt to let Israel have its way, but I think the international community is less willing to turn a blind eye to refugees than it once was.
Netanyahu has a well documented history of opposing any solution that doesn't give every bit of land the Bible says was once occupied by Jews to modern day Jews, regardless of them having any actual historical links to the region. So it's no surprise he wants to force the Gazans out of Gaza and will move Jewish settlers there at the first opportunity. Is there anyone here who doubts that's Netanyahu's plan?
Copernicus
Industrial Grade Linguist
It might help with our labor shortage problem, since we actually do need people to do all the work that is needed to keep our economy going.
TomC
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I'd be good with that, personally.
We're a big country. And we've already got violence issues.
A million more religious people with questionable ethics concerning violence would be a drop in the bucket. At least where I live.
I'm a serious conservative when it comes to immigration. Bring 'em on! Immigrants Made this Country Great in the first place. Palestinians. Mexicans. Venezuelans. Whatever!
I'm a hardcore conservative on some issues, like immigration.
Tom
laughing dog
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Why specify Egypt? Egypt is not the only safer place than Gaza. Seems your point is not well thought out at all.
TomC
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Because someone else up thread did.
They singled out Egypt from Iran, UN, and a bunch of other people I specified in my post.
Egypt is not the only safe place. The Muslim world is quite large and Muslim Gazans have a lot more choices than Zionists did back in the day. Zionists had one, and it wasn't particularly safe until they fought for a homeland.
And won.
Tom
Arctish
Centimillionaire
Zionists had one choice because they would not accept alternatives to claiming the area around Jerusalem and creating a Jewish State there. That's what made them Zionists.
But if you mean Jews had no alternatives, it's not that simple.
Jews were as safe as every other ethnic and religious community in the Ottoman Empire. They were safe in North America, in large parts of South America, in Australia, and in New Zealand, although their immigration into English speaking countries was restricted by racists and religious bigots. They were not safe in many parts of Europe, although there were individuals and communities that protected them.
Jews, both the local Palestinian Jews and the immigrants, would have been safe in Mandatory Palestine if the British had been determined to make it so. Unfortunately but not unexpectedly, the British put their own interests ahead of everyone else's. They toppled the existing political structure and social compact without putting any real effort into creating a replacement that was just as good if not better. And then the Europeans went full murderous Anti-Semite and slaughtered Jews, and European chauvinists vilified Palestinians for not voluntarily exiling themselves and ceding everything around Jerusalem to the survivors. And then, when they did cede more than half of Palestine to the Zionists, racist religious bigots like Netanyahu said that wasn't good enough (they want it all) and Palestinians are still being criticized for objecting to their forced removal from their ancestral homeland.
JohnG
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Pre Oct 7 - It's been much easier for Palestinians to cross the border into Israel than into Egypt.
Derec
Contributor
Last thing we need! Why can't their fellow Arab states take them in? Why must US (and Europe, Canada and Australia) be islamicized?