Venezuela - Updated Chronicles in Socialist Success Stories!

[Trausti]

I believe in evidence. Do you have some?

Iran, Iraq, Libya,Syria, Liberia, Egypt, Venezuela, Guatamala, Honduras, Panama, Nicaragua, Columbia, Cuba, Vietnam, Korea, Laos, Cambodia, China, Ukraine, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Russia, Philippines take your pick. They have all had intensive U.S. intervention intended and sometimes succeeding in overturning their governments. You look up the details. Our country is clinging on to the notion of its hegemony in the entire world...a hegemony of military might combined with clandestine operatives. If you listen to Iranian radio station in the U.S., the CIA openly advertises for people to work for them in Iran in "clandestine operations."

I agree with Martin Luther King on this one. We are a country with no moral constraints on what it does overseas. It hasn't changed since his time.

So you suspect Joe Biden, too, huh? You may be right.

 

[Axulus]

I believe in evidence. Do you have some?

Iran, Iraq, Libya,Syria, Liberia, Egypt, Venezuela, Guatamala, Honduras, Panama, Nicaragua, Columbia, Cuba, Vietnam, Korea, Laos, Cambodia, China, Ukraine, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Russia, Philippines take your pick. They have all had intensive U.S. intervention intended and sometimes succeeding in overturning their governments. You look up the details. Our country is clinging on to the notion of its hegemony in the entire world...a hegemony of military might combined with clandestine operatives. If you listen to Iranian radio station in the U.S., the CIA openly advertises for people to work for them in Iran in "clandestine operations."

I agree with Martin Luther King on this one. We are a country with no moral constraints on what it does overseas. It hasn't changed since his time.

How arkirk and untermenche view the US:

 

[dismal]

I believe in evidence. Do you have some?

Iran, Iraq, Libya,Syria, Liberia, Egypt, Venezuela, Guatamala, Honduras, Panama, Nicaragua, Columbia, Cuba, Vietnam, Korea, Laos, Cambodia, China, Ukraine, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Russia, Philippines take your pick. They have all had intensive U.S. intervention intended and sometimes succeeding in overturning their governments. You look up the details. Our country is clinging on to the notion of its hegemony in the entire world...a hegemony of military might combined with clandestine operatives. If you listen to Iranian radio station in the U.S., the CIA openly advertises for people to work for them in Iran in "clandestine operations."

I agree with Martin Luther King on this one. We are a country with no moral constraints on what it does overseas. It hasn't changed since his time.

In this thread we are talking about the current issues in Venezuela.

Do you have evidence that they are being caused by Joe Biden and/or the CIA?

 

[untermensche]

How arkirk and untermenche view the US:

The US has military in about 130 nations and has about 900 overseas bases.

It has been conducting non-stop military activity since 2001 which included a massive unprovoked attack and occupation.

What exactly about that picture is an error?

 

[Derec]

The $755 Condom Pack Is the Latest Indignity in Venezuela

The high price is due to the huge gap between the official and the black market (aka real) exchange rate between the "strong" bolivar and the dollar.

So I guess Venezuela isn't fucked?

No, it is, but without protection.

 

[untermensche]

Iran, Iraq, Libya,Syria, Liberia, Egypt, Venezuela, Guatamala, Honduras, Panama, Nicaragua, Columbia, Cuba, Vietnam, Korea, Laos, Cambodia, China, Ukraine, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Russia, Philippines take your pick. They have all had intensive U.S. intervention intended and sometimes succeeding in overturning their governments. You look up the details. Our country is clinging on to the notion of its hegemony in the entire world...a hegemony of military might combined with clandestine operatives. If you listen to Iranian radio station in the U.S., the CIA openly advertises for people to work for them in Iran in "clandestine operations."

I agree with Martin Luther King on this one. We are a country with no moral constraints on what it does overseas. It hasn't changed since his time.

In this thread we are talking about the current issues in Venezuela.

Do you have evidence that they are being caused by Joe Biden and/or the CIA?

Economic warfare is A factor, not the only factor.

Every nation that attempts to construct an economy that is not part of the US dominated system is attacked. And the attacks are relentless. That is what history has clearly shown.

The CIA operates in total secrecy.

But when it's activities come to light we see how they have attempted to undermine every attempt to break free from the US dominated system.

Some thugs shoot people in the streets of Venezuela in an attempt to remove Chavez with force.

Their undemocratic and murderous activities are immediately legitimized by the US government and when the people of Venezuela throw the thugs out and restore democracy the thugs immediately find homes the US.

If the US will support the deliberate murder of people in the streets there is little it won't resort to to punish nations with the nerve to try to break from US dominance and control. We can see that in Venezuela and Chile.

 

[dismal]

In this thread we are talking about the current issues in Venezuela.

Do you have evidence that they are being caused by Joe Biden and/or the CIA?

Economic warfare is A factor, not the only factor.

Every nation that attempts to construct an economy that is not part of the US dominated system is attacked. And the attacks are relentless. That is what history has clearly shown.

The CIA operates in total secrecy.

But when it's activities come to light we see how they have attempted to undermine every attempt to break free from the US dominated system.

Some thugs shoot people in the streets of Venezuela in an attempt to remove Chavez with force.

Their undemocratic and murderous activities are immediately legitimized by the US government and when the people of Venezuela throw the thugs out and restore democracy the thugs immediately find homes the US.

If the US will support the deliberate murder of people in the streets there is little it won't resort to to punish nations with the nerve to try to break from US dominance and control. We can see that in Venezuela and Chile.

So you have absolutely no evidence of any of this?

Do you have some idea what specific acts of economic warfare the US/CIA/Joe Biden may have perpetrated?

Since the apparent problem is that Venezuela has adopted economic policies that will predictably cause widespread shortages, is the theory they hypnotized Maduro into following these economic policies?

 

[untermensche]

Economic warfare is A factor, not the only factor.

Every nation that attempts to construct an economy that is not part of the US dominated system is attacked. And the attacks are relentless. That is what history has clearly shown.

The CIA operates in total secrecy.

But when it's activities come to light we see how they have attempted to undermine every attempt to break free from the US dominated system.

Some thugs shoot people in the streets of Venezuela in an attempt to remove Chavez with force.

Their undemocratic and murderous activities are immediately legitimized by the US government and when the people of Venezuela throw the thugs out and restore democracy the thugs immediately find homes the US.

If the US will support the deliberate murder of people in the streets there is little it won't resort to to punish nations with the nerve to try to break from US dominance and control. We can see that in Venezuela and Chile.

So you have absolutely no evidence of any of this?

Do you have some idea what specific acts of economic warfare the US/CIA/Joe Biden may have perpetrated?

Since the apparent problem is that Venezuela has adopted economic policies that will predictably cause widespread shortages, is the theory they hypnotized Maduro into following these economic policies?

You can't predict what you pretend you can.

You know some superficialities of one economic system and don't even know how that system really operates.

Was the Great Depression a sign that capitalism is a bunch of junk?

Some shortages in Venezuela is not evidence that any other system is a bunch of junk, only that it needs adjustments.

 

[dismal]

So you have absolutely no evidence of any of this?

Do you have some idea what specific acts of economic warfare the US/CIA/Joe Biden may have perpetrated?

Since the apparent problem is that Venezuela has adopted economic policies that will predictably cause widespread shortages, is the theory they hypnotized Maduro into following these economic policies?

You can't predict what you pretend you can.

You know some superficialities of one economic system and don't even know how that system really operates.

Was the Great Depression a sign that capitalism is a bunch of junk?

Some shortages in Venezuela is not evidence that any other system is a bunch of junk, only that it needs adjustments.

I can't predict that printing currency to pay your bills will cause inflation?

I can't predict that maintaining an official exchange rate that has no bearing on reality as you inflate the value of your currency away will cause shortages and black markets?

I can't predict that fixing prices far below the price a seller is willing to sell at will cause shortages?

I can't predict that nationalizing hundreds of businesses will cause investment to dry up and international businesses to flee?

I can't predict that declaring economic war on the successful people in your country will cause them to up and leave?

Actually, I can, I did and I do. Mastering these predictions requires about a week of high school level economics classes.

Not only could I predict it, now I can observe it.

You, on the other hand, can't even describe what sort of weapons Joe Biden is using in this economic war he is waging.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The Capitalists in Venezuela and places like the former USSR are those persons who capitalize on given conditions to maximize personal gain. Those people are the leaders. What eventuates under such conditions is not socialism or even communism but rather gangsterism. I don't think any reasonable person disagrees with this.

There are plenty of socialist examples across the globe and all are intimately associated with capitalism, essentially sociocapitalist cultures, societies and governments. They are the norm. They are neither capitalist nor socialist entirely.

So yes, there are capitalists in Venezuela as uter opined, people like Chavez. If you want pure capitalism, he's your model, your poster child, an entrepreneur in its purest form.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Their problems are Israel, far more than the west. Other than that, I agree with your observation.

Of course you two will agree. You accept regime change from the outside for any country that has a socialist government. You guys are not alone. There is an entire CIA and NSA and FBI and DEA that agrees with you. Never mind that it is their job to keep their job. Their job in Venezuela is skullduggery. You guys simply believe in the religion of oil and profit.

It was the West that invaded and colonized the rest of the world in its mad scramble for resources to maintain industries that have polluted the entire friggin planet. Now, we say to the rest of the world..."You're blaming it all on us when some of it is you." At the same time our government has covert operations around the world and has attempted and at times succeeded in coups and toppling governments that truly were trying to serve their people. Most of the worst activies (most violent operations) are however against dictatorial governments that the U.S. supports because they are friendly to U.S. exploitation of resources or labor in that country. These are unsavory people and eventually the U.S. has to kill a few of them...like Saddam Hussein. You guys have no morals when it comes to your support of predatory capitalism and it seems you are the same when it comes to petrochemical industrialization. You seem unable to see any other way for any other person or country. New technologies are emerging that are going to totally reshape the dynamics of human societies on this planet and you guys just lolligag in the same old talking point support of systems that are in fact dying.

The people of Venezuela are doing this to themselves. I don't think we should intervene, other than giving them advice.

And the governments you say are trying to serve their people are doing so by engaging in the socialists' favorite occupation: stealing. As you can see with Venezuela, it doesn't work in the long run.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I believe in evidence. Do you have some?

Iran, Iraq, Libya,Syria, Liberia, Egypt, Venezuela, Guatamala, Honduras, Panama, Nicaragua, Columbia, Cuba, Vietnam, Korea, Laos, Cambodia, China, Ukraine, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Russia, Philippines take your pick. They have all had intensive U.S. intervention intended and sometimes succeeding in overturning their governments. You look up the details. Our country is clinging on to the notion of its hegemony in the entire world...a hegemony of military might combined with clandestine operatives. If you listen to Iranian radio station in the U.S., the CIA openly advertises for people to work for them in Iran in "clandestine operations."

I agree with Martin Luther King on this one. We are a country with no moral constraints on what it does overseas. It hasn't changed since his time.

The problem is that you are focusing on "socialist" and ignoring everything else.

Most of these were Soviet-bloc countries. No Soviet-bloc country was doing what the people needed. I've been in a fair number--everything I saw was fucked up.

As for clandestine operations in Iran--you are talking about a country that started out by an attack on the US and which has attacked us multiple times since. We would be grossly negligent if we didn't have spies there.

 

[Bullmoose Too]

After reading through this thread I have come to the conclusion that government spending with control over the economy enforced by a strongman means socialism.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

After reading through this thread I have come to the conclusion that government spending with control over the economy enforced by a strongman means socialism.

In practice when they claim "socialism" that's all too often what's actually happening.

 

[untermensche]

You can't predict what you pretend you can.

You know some superficialities of one economic system and don't even know how that system really operates.

Was the Great Depression a sign that capitalism is a bunch of junk?

Some shortages in Venezuela is not evidence that any other system is a bunch of junk, only that it needs adjustments.

I can't predict that printing currency to pay your bills will cause inflation?

The US does it all the time and it does not cause inflation.

I can't predict that maintaining an official exchange rate that has no bearing on reality as you inflate the value of your currency away will cause shortages and black markets?

I can't predict that fixing prices far below the price a seller is willing to sell at will cause shortages?

Venezuela has 4 different exchange rates, each of which has a bearing to a different aspect of "reality" and this is something the Venezuelan government is trying to control. They are working towards the goal of one exchange rate.

So this is a valid point.

But only if prices fall below costs will you definitely see shortages. Otherwise you may or may not. It depends on the makeup of the companies involved.

I can't predict that nationalizing hundreds of businesses will cause investment to dry up and international businesses to flee?

It depends on the kind of business and how the business operates.

Many capitalist business work with only one goal in mind, maximize share holder return. They are organized around that principle. This principle also means minimize worker return and customer return to as low as possible.

If companies were organized around the principle of maximizing worker and customer return then we would see them behave differently in many ways.

A system built entirely around maximizing shareholder return will look nothing like a system built around maximizing worker return.

Your prediction only work for amoral inhuman systems that some capitalists prefer.

They wouldn't hold true if we lived under the principle that production is a means to elevate society and not an end unto itself to make a tiny few incredibly wealthy.

You, on the other hand, can't even describe what sort of weapons Joe Biden is using in this economic war he is waging.

Biden uses the weapons at his disposal which are diplomatic and economic.

He works to isolate Venezuela in both arenas.

Venezuela is not considered a free nation able to choose a free path. It is an enemy, not doing the proper things according to the Big Leader up North.

And as an enemy any attack possible is justified.

 

[Axulus]

Biden uses the weapons at his disposal which are diplomatic and economic.

He works to isolate Venezuela in both arenas.

Venezuela is not considered a free nation able to choose a free path. It is an enemy, not doing the proper things according to the Big Leader up North.

And as an enemy any attack possible is justified.

Can you provide specifics and credible sources rather than bald assertions and platitudes?

 

[arkirk]

Iran, Iraq, Libya,Syria, Liberia, Egypt, Venezuela, Guatamala, Honduras, Panama, Nicaragua, Columbia, Cuba, Vietnam, Korea, Laos, Cambodia, China, Ukraine, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Russia, Philippines take your pick. They have all had intensive U.S. intervention intended and sometimes succeeding in overturning their governments. You look up the details. Our country is clinging on to the notion of its hegemony in the entire world...a hegemony of military might combined with clandestine operatives. If you listen to Iranian radio station in the U.S., the CIA openly advertises for people to work for them in Iran in "clandestine operations."

I agree with Martin Luther King on this one. We are a country with no moral constraints on what it does overseas. It hasn't changed since his time.

The problem is that you are focusing on "socialist" and ignoring everything else.

Most of these were Soviet-bloc countries. No Soviet-bloc country was doing what the people needed. I've been in a fair number--everything I saw was fucked up.

As for clandestine operations in Iran--you are talking about a country that started out by an attack on the US and which has attacked us multiple times since. We would be grossly negligent if we didn't have spies there.

Have you ever heard of Kermit Roosevelt and his U.S. sponsored murder of the democratically elected president of Iran in 1953? What some people will do for oil. Follow up the murder and coups with decades of U.S. installed Shah with his repression and oil company loyalties and you have the proper recipe for making of an enemy. We need to stop being a nation of Kermit Roosevelts and start being a nation motivated by peace. You seem to think this animosity the county feels toward the U.S. is directed by its leadership and at the people of the U.S. It is not. We opened the door to the Supreme Leader, a religious autocrat who will not allow the CIA to kill him. You get in Iran what Kermit and his buddies created until you CHANGE YOUR POLICIES. That is what this is all about. The people of Iran have the same attitude as you have toward "the great satan." So step aside and let others who are not so threatening and militaristic represent us in the region and things would settle down.

The same thing with Guantanamo. That country is not ours to dictate to or to rule. You always bring a kind of authoritarian attitude to these discussions that is as abrasive as it is uninformed.

We have almost always had the opportunity to cooperate with these countries and cooperate with them. When you start out wishing them ill and wanting to crush them, you get the situations we see and deal with everyday.

 

[Derec]

Have you ever heard of Kermit Roosevelt and his U.S. sponsored murder of the democratically elected president of Iran in 1953?

What murder? If you mean Mohammad Mosaddegh he wasn't killed by CIA but died in his home at the ripe age of 84 years long after the coup. Or do you think CIA inoculated him with cancer like they did with Chavez?
And he wasn't quite the textbook democrat as the later mythology around him would have it. Quite apart from the illegal expropriation (or theft in plain English) of US and British oil companies he also suspended the 1951 election mid-count in order to ensure his victory (his base of support was the cities and those election results came in first).
His party, the National Front, was also involved in political assassinations.
This myth of the good, democratic Mosaddegh vs. the evil, autocratic Shah is just that, a myth.

What some people will do for oil.

Same sentence could apply to Mosaddegh as well.

Follow up the murder and coups with decades of U.S. installed Shah with his repression and oil company loyalties and you have the proper recipe for making of an enemy. We need to stop being a nation of Kermit Roosevelts and start being a nation motivated by peace.

Crude oil is originally in the ground. It is useless in the ground. To get it out and put it form suitable for export one needs capital and expertise. So a country makes an agreement with companies to get the crude oil out and process it. Years later the country decides they can make more money if they kick the companies out and confiscate their property, contrary to their agreement.
By what logic is such behavior ok?

Imagine you did that to a contractor? You'd go to prison, and you should. Theft and breach of contract is not any less theft and breach of contract if done by a government vs. an individual.

You seem to think this animosity the county feels toward the U.S. is directed by its leadership and at the people of the U.S. It is not. We opened the door to the Supreme Leader, a religious autocrat who will not allow the CIA to kill him.

I am sure the CIA could kill him if they wanted to. Unfortunately another weird beard would take his place.

You get in Iran what Kermit and his buddies created until you CHANGE YOUR POLICIES. That is what this is all about. The people of Iran have the same attitude as you have toward "the great satan." So step aside and let others who are not so threatening and militaristic represent us in the region and things would settle down.

And what about the need of countries to abide by their agreements? If you want to nationalize your oil industry you compensate the current owners like Saudi Arabia did with Aramco, by buying the western oil companies out. They also routinely contract with western oil services companies like Schlumberger and Halliburton and that works because they do not refuse to pay the bills nor do they confiscate the rigs, like Venezuela did.

The same thing with Guantanamo. That country is not ours to dictate to or to rule. You always bring a kind of authoritarian attitude to these discussions that is as abrasive as it is uninformed.

Guantanamo is not a country. Guantanamo Bay has been leased from Cuba fair and square.
In any case, Cuba would have been much better off if Castro, Guevara and the rest of the murderous cabal never took power.

We have almost always had the opportunity to cooperate with these countries and cooperate with them. When you start out wishing them ill and wanting to crush them, you get the situations we see and deal with everyday.

Wasn't US cooperating with Cuba before Castro?

 

[untermensche]

Biden uses the weapons at his disposal which are diplomatic and economic.

He works to isolate Venezuela in both arenas.

Venezuela is not considered a free nation able to choose a free path. It is an enemy, not doing the proper things according to the Big Leader up North.

And as an enemy any attack possible is justified.

Can you provide specifics and credible sources rather than bald assertions and platitudes?

You could start with this;

U.S. Seeks to Get Rid of Left Governments in Latin America

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/op-eds-&-columns/op-eds-&-columns/us-seeks-to-get-rid-of-left-governments-in-latin-america

And this;

South Americans back Venezuela's Maduro, blast US 'interference'

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/rest-of-world/South-Americans-back-Venezuelas-Maduro-blast-US-interference/articleshow/19602966.cms?referral=PM

 

[Axulus]

Can you provide specifics and credible sources rather than bald assertions and platitudes?

You could start with this;

U.S. Seeks to Get Rid of Left Governments in Latin America

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/op-eds-&-columns/op-eds-&-columns/us-seeks-to-get-rid-of-left-governments-in-latin-america

And this;

South Americans back Venezuela's Maduro, blast US 'interference'

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/rest-of-world/South-Americans-back-Venezuelas-Maduro-blast-US-interference/articleshow/19602966.cms?referral=PM

In the first link, I saw no specific actions against Venezuela. Can you please point them out, or what am I missing? The most specific claim I could make out was this:

In Venezuela this past week, Washington could not hijack the OAS but only its Secretary General, José Miguel Insulza, who supported the White House (and Venezuela opposition) demand for a “100 percent recount.”

So someone in the opposition in Venezuela who also views the US positively demands a recount? That's the best you've got? Seriously?

The second one is a little bit better, but it is essentially the same issue. The US government itself is now is hesitant to call Madero the legitimate president and demands a recount in somewhat close election that was characterized by bouts of violence.

And here's the exact statement from John Kerry, which the article you linked to omitted:

We think there ought to be a recount

Sounds like an opinion, hence the "we think" part. Not a demand.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/17/us-venezuela-election-recount-maduro