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Anti abortion should = pro birth control. One GOPer gets it.

I would say that perhaps the dividing line should not be whether or not the baby has happened to pop out yet, but whether it would be reasonably viable with whatever life support is possible. The survival limit for prem babies is steadily being pushed back, it would be a shame to deny personhood to someone just because they've not been born yet.

It's just that it's a mistake to assume that non-abortion birth control encourages unplanned sex or that making it unavailable will make it all go away. It was there before birth control became available, it's just that nobody talked about it - GOPers and their ilk seem to think that the clock can be turned back to a past that never really existed. It would be better to attempt to avoid the need for abortion by allowing birth control. But, well, you know about some people and commonsense.

As for allowing abortion for rapes - I'm more pro-life than I was once, but I see that as a grim necessity. Perhaps if there were fewer rapes, that would help? Is it so hard to respect fellow humans? Perhaps wishful thinking, but it's worth a try.
 
I would say that perhaps the dividing line should not be whether or not the baby has happened to pop out yet, but whether it would be reasonably viable with whatever life support is possible. The survival limit for prem babies is steadily being pushed back, it would be a shame to deny personhood to someone just because they've not been born yet.

It's just that it's a mistake to assume that non-abortion birth control encourages unplanned sex or that making it unavailable will make it all go away. It was there before birth control became available, it's just that nobody talked about it - GOPers and their ilk seem to think that the clock can be turned back to a past that never really existed. It would be better to attempt to avoid the need for abortion by allowing birth control. But, well, you know about some people and commonsense.

As for allowing abortion for rapes - I'm more pro-life than I was once, but I see that as a grim necessity. Perhaps if there were fewer rapes, that would help? Is it so hard to respect fellow humans? Perhaps wishful thinking, but it's worth a try.

What is a grim necessity? What about a conception through sexual assault makes a fetus a more acceptable candidate for an abortion? What are the lesser and greater degrees of grim?

I'm just asking if there is any rationalization to this thought process.
 
Which is not too different from calling Pro-choice people "baby killers."

Exactly. Both sides straw man the other. Nobody calls themself Pro-Death or Anti-Choice, but that is how each side views the other.

The "both sides are exactly as bad" argument only makes you look reasonable and less biased if they actually are as bad.

As it is, in this case, it only makes you look more biased and less reasonable.
 
I would say that perhaps the dividing line should not be whether or not the baby has happened to pop out yet, but whether it would be reasonably viable with whatever life support is possible. The survival limit for prem babies is steadily being pushed back, it would be a shame to deny personhood to someone just because they've not been born yet.

It's just that it's a mistake to assume that non-abortion birth control encourages unplanned sex or that making it unavailable will make it all go away. It was there before birth control became available, it's just that nobody talked about it - GOPers and their ilk seem to think that the clock can be turned back to a past that never really existed. It would be better to attempt to avoid the need for abortion by allowing birth control. But, well, you know about some people and commonsense.

As for allowing abortion for rapes - I'm more pro-life than I was once, but I see that as a grim necessity. Perhaps if there were fewer rapes, that would help? Is it so hard to respect fellow humans? Perhaps wishful thinking, but it's worth a try.

What is a grim necessity? What about a conception through sexual assault makes a fetus a more acceptable candidate for an abortion? What are the lesser and greater degrees of grim?

I'm just asking if there is any rationalization to this thought process.

Well, if fetuses are people, then fetuses that are the product of rape are a product of sin, and therefore deserve to be "murdered."

Also, I want the government to regulate vaginas because I believe in small government.

Someone protect me from Obama's secret weather machine!

:cheeky:
 
I don't think I have ever heard of a "pro-choice" person also advocating for murder charges with regard to an unborn fetus. Perhaps Jolly Penguin would like to provide some examples.

I don't agree with Jolly Penguin at all, but I am such an example. Well maybe not all the way to "murder", but for legal repercussion for causing a miscariage or forcing an abortion.
But with the qualification of a WANTED unborn fetus.

The difference between a parasitic bunch of cells and a developping baby is not to be found in biology, it's in the future parents emotional investment. Ergo, for me, aborting an unwanted pregnancy is fine, causing a willingly pregnant woman to miscarry is a crime against her family.

That is quite a bit different than charging someone with two murders for killing a pregnant woman, or one murder for killing her unborn child.

I fully support enhanced penalties in those circumstances due to the added anguish of losing a wanted baby, but not separate charges for the "murder" for the unborn.
 
I don't agree with Jolly Penguin at all, but I am such an example. Well maybe not all the way to "murder", but for legal repercussion for causing a miscariage or forcing an abortion.
But with the qualification of a WANTED unborn fetus.

The difference between a parasitic bunch of cells and a developping baby is not to be found in biology, it's in the future parents emotional investment. Ergo, for me, aborting an unwanted pregnancy is fine, causing a willingly pregnant woman to miscarry is a crime against her family.

That is quite a bit different than charging someone with two murders for killing a pregnant woman, or one murder for killing her unborn child.

I fully support enhanced penalties in those circumstances due to the added anguish of losing a wanted baby, but not separate charges for the "murder" for the unborn.
I myself don't support penalties for either action. I support correction to the point where the person is no longer a threat to themselves or others, where they are made so they either won't do it again or accept that they should be kept in a place where they can't do it again, but is otherwise not awful, or euthanized. Anything more is pure, unmitigated non-person apish revenge fetishism. Do what it takes to fix the world, but don't punish, and don't encourage people to seek punishment.
 
Consciousness is not a sufficient criteria. Plenty of organisms have consciousness and yet we grant them no rights or personhood. Regardless, the fuzzy uncertain approx range at which consciousness emerges (and varies for every pregnancy) would not serve as any kind of defensible basis to view it as an ethics free cluster of cells then suddenly a full person with full ethical consideration. It is at best a fuzzy continuum in which it has some level of ethical status the increases over time, but it can never have full personhood rights until post-birth because it is not physically distinct from someone who already has full personhood rights, the mother. The fetus being inside the mother's body is by far the clearest and most objective dividing line between whether it can be given full personhood or not. Only post birth does the mother's actions upon her own body not have direct incidental impact upon the child. When one thing is fully inside of another person's body, it is logically impossible for them to both exercise rights of personhood.
The birth canal is the most intellectually defensible dividing line between full personhood and something less than that. My critique of pro-choicers is when they acknowledge the importance of this dividing line, but go too far in arguing and acting as though there is nothing in between full personhood and being nothing but a cluster of cells with zero ethical consideration, as though a living thing developing toward humaness and personhood but just a few weeks shy is no different than a wart. Even a pre-consious fetus should have more ethical status than a wart.

Your view is hardly intuitive, since when we normally talk about personhood we are talking about something about the person, not something about his position relative to the birth canal.

I don't know about "intuitive" but intuition is usually wrong. However, my view is extremely logical and maps strongly onto the standard concept of a person, both psychological and legal notions of personal liberty and rights. When we talk about a "person" we are referring to the physical distinctness that makes them one person rather than another person. An organism completely within the body of another person is not physically distinct, thus it is impossible the think or talk about them as a "person" that is not also another person. My reference to the birth canal is just a way of highlighting whether the organism is inside (non-distinct from) or outside (distinct from) the mother's body.


There may be other considerations that arise when a baby is no longer dependent on its mother's body, but those are changes in the external environment, not in whether he is a person or not. It is no less strange to suggest the birth canal confers personhood than any particular moment that occurs in the womb.

Personhood requires an individual organism and thus cannot logically apply to both the mother and the fetus inside her, which are note physically individuated. Thus, literal physical separation from the mother is neccessary to create two individuals, and only then are there two persons. No developmental changes within the womb create actual physical separation, thus none can be sufficient for personhood to which the concept of individual rights applies.
Note, it isn't about hypothetical potential independence after some potential process of removing it that has not yet occurred. It is about the fetus being actually no longer inside the mother, and until that moment it is not an individual person, only a potential one.

Rather, personhood is something that is slowly gained after birth, and the newborn is progressively more of a person as it acquires those traits (whatever they may be). This fits our usual understanding, since the acquisition of personhood is simultaneous with changes in the person himself, not in his spatial location. What I am suggesting is that nobody is born a person.

By far the most objective and defining feature of personhood is biological physical individuality. Without it, no amount of development can make them a person. If somehow a fetus developed to the point of a 5 year old inside the womb, it would not be a person and further from being one than a premature newborn.
Nothing can be a person prior to birth. Of course there is important development post birth. However, it is unclear that a newborn completely lacks any neccessary features of personhood. Regardless, personhood directly determines whether an organism has any rights and can be viewed differently than a wart. For many pragmatic reasons it would be a very bad idea to no grant such status to babies once born, not the least of which is no point of development is or will ever be as scientifically and empirically as clear and objective as the the point at which an organism is inside then outside the body of another organism.
 
I would say that perhaps the dividing line should not be whether or not the baby has happened to pop out yet, but whether it would be reasonably viable with whatever life support is possible. The survival limit for prem babies is steadily being pushed back, it would be a shame to deny personhood to someone just because they've not been born yet.

One of the standard pro-life deceptions.

The threshold hasn't moved much at all in quite a while. The odds are better once the fetus is past the threshold but if the lungs aren't ready it dies no matter what the doctors do. (Which has resulted in some pro-life medical people making horror stories about doctors "murdering" babies by neglect--when in reality they knew the situation was hopeless, all they could do is bring suffering, not survival, and made the correct decision not to do so.)

Furthermore, fetuses near the dividing line will generally have severe defects--while we can keep them alive we can't keep them whole.

As for allowing abortion for rapes - I'm more pro-life than I was once, but I see that as a grim necessity. Perhaps if there were fewer rapes, that would help? Is it so hard to respect fellow humans? Perhaps wishful thinking, but it's worth a try.

In other words, you seek to punish the woman, not protect the fetus.

- - - Updated - - -

That is quite a bit different than charging someone with two murders for killing a pregnant woman, or one murder for killing her unborn child.

I fully support enhanced penalties in those circumstances due to the added anguish of losing a wanted baby, but not separate charges for the "murder" for the unborn.

I can see it as an aggravating circumstance in sentencing, that's all--and I would only apply it if there was a reasonable indication she was pregnant.
 
Here's a quick one-question test to discern whether a person is actually "pro-life" and wants to reduce abortions or whether they are actually "anti-choice" and want to control sex. (If anyone wants to post this question in debates elesewhere, I would love to hear the answers.)

~are you for or against state-funded, easy to acquire long term birth control?~

That's it. If you are FOR this proposition, you can reduce abortions by 88% in 12 weeks. It's so simple.

Unless - your position is actually that controlling the sex lives of women is the main goal. In which case, you are against this and also against abortions.

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2015/02/04/3618986/republican-iud-program-colorado/
I am against state-funded, easy to acquire long term birth control when the funding somehow affects my wallet, and the reason for that is I care more about the negative impact to my wallet (when it's coerced) than I do about all the benefit that might come about otherwise. Now, if that's thought to somehow reveal some underlying secret reasoning behind my stance on the abortion related issues, then that's a delusion particular to someone other than myself.
 
I am against state-funded, easy to acquire long term birth control when the funding somehow affects my wallet, and the reason for that is I care more about the negative impact to my wallet (when it's coerced) than I do about all the benefit that might come about otherwise. Now, if that's thought to somehow reveal some underlying secret reasoning behind my stance on the abortion related issues, then that's a delusion particular to someone other than myself.

I intended the question to be useful for those who have expressed an opposition to legal abortion, so you are out of the target group.


On the other hand, I would submit to you that your wallet benefits magnificently from state-funded long term birth control. It is significantly cheaper to society to prevent pregnancies than to pay for them.


There are myriad studies demonstrating this with high levels of confidence, but I will let the market speak for itself: Insurance companies are generally FOR it.
 
That is quite a bit different than charging someone with two murders for killing a pregnant woman, or one murder for killing her unborn child.

I fully support enhanced penalties in those circumstances due to the added anguish of losing a wanted baby, but not separate charges for the "murder" for the unborn.
exactly
I can see it as an aggravating circumstance in sentencing, that's all--and I would only apply it if there was a reasonable indication she was pregnant.
yes, exactly :)
 
Here's a quick one-question test to discern whether a person is actually "pro-life" and wants to reduce abortions or whether they are actually "anti-choice" and want to control sex. (If anyone wants to post this question in debates elesewhere, I would love to hear the answers.)

~are you for or against state-funded, easy to acquire long term birth control?~

That's it. If you are FOR this proposition, you can reduce abortions by 88% in 12 weeks. It's so simple.

Unless - your position is actually that controlling the sex lives of women is the main goal. In which case, you are against this and also against abortions.

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2015/02/04/3618986/republican-iud-program-colorado/
I am against state-funded, easy to acquire long term birth control when the funding somehow affects my wallet, and the reason for that is I care more about the negative impact to my wallet (when it's coerced) than I do about all the benefit that might come about otherwise. Now, if that's thought to somehow reveal some underlying secret reasoning behind my stance on the abortion related issues, then that's a delusion particular to someone other than myself.
Why did you pick birth control and not fire hydrants? You have helped paid for thousands of fire hydrants in your city, but has a fireman ever put a hose on your house?

Why should you pay for fire protection for houses you will never enter? Maybe a non-coercive fire protection system would be more to your liking.
 
I am against state-funded, easy to acquire long term birth control when the funding somehow affects my wallet, and the reason for that is I care more about the negative impact to my wallet (when it's coerced) than I do about all the benefit that might come about otherwise. Now, if that's thought to somehow reveal some underlying secret reasoning behind my stance on the abortion related issues, then that's a delusion particular to someone other than myself.
Why did you pick birth control and not fire hydrants? You have helped paid for thousands of fire hydrants in your city, but has a fireman ever put a hose on your house?

Why should you pay for fire protection for houses you will never enter? Maybe a non-coercive fire protection system would be more to your liking.
I especially hate the new item on my property tax bills concerning that very matter. There was an incident that prompted members of the fire department to go around asking for verbal permission to enter in cases of emergencies. I was one of the few that told them just what I thought. I recall them saying they had the right to break down the gate. I'm now better educated on the laws regarding booby traps--if it's posted and doesn't cause bodily harm, their tires are fair game!
 
Why did you pick birth control and not fire hydrants? You have helped paid for thousands of fire hydrants in your city, but has a fireman ever put a hose on your house?

Why should you pay for fire protection for houses you will never enter? Maybe a non-coercive fire protection system would be more to your liking.
I especially hate the new item on my property tax bills concerning that very matter. There was an incident that prompted members of the fire department to go around asking for verbal permission to enter in cases of emergencies. I was one of the few that told them just what I thought. I recall them saying they had the right to break down the gate. I'm now better educated on the laws regarding booby traps--if it's posted and doesn't cause bodily harm, their tires are fair game!

Please feel free to enjoy the benefits the rest of us provide for you.

You seem to have a rather toddler type understanding of how society functions. Most of us understand that anything which raises our standard of living, whether it is healthcare or fire protection, is a benefit to all, even those whose house is not currently aflame. There will always be a few who missed the civics lesson and are content to drink clean water and flush their toilet without a thought of what life would be like if millions of unseen people contributed to their welfare.

We don't expect you to say thank you, but you are welcome, none the less.
 
I especially hate the new item on my property tax bills concerning that very matter. There was an incident that prompted members of the fire department to go around asking for verbal permission to enter in cases of emergencies. I was one of the few that told them just what I thought. I recall them saying they had the right to break down the gate. I'm now better educated on the laws regarding booby traps--if it's posted and doesn't cause bodily harm, their tires are fair game!

Please feel free to enjoy the benefits the rest of us provide for you.

You seem to have a rather toddler type understanding of how society functions. Most of us understand that anything which raises our standard of living, whether it is healthcare or fire protection, is a benefit to all, even those whose house is not currently aflame. There will always be a few who missed the civics lesson and are content to drink clean water and flush their toilet without a thought of what life would be like if millions of unseen people contributed to their welfare.

We don't expect you to say thank you, but you are welcome, none the less.

I think I'm gonna politely bow out--not my thread.
 
I am against state-funded, easy to acquire long term birth control when the funding somehow affects my wallet, and the reason for that is I care more about the negative impact to my wallet (when it's coerced) than I do about all the benefit that might come about otherwise. Now, if that's thought to somehow reveal some underlying secret reasoning behind my stance on the abortion related issues, then that's a delusion particular to someone other than myself.

The effect on your wallet would be positive--the reduction in the welfare rolls would pay for it.
 
I am against state-funded, easy to acquire long term birth control when the funding somehow affects my wallet, and the reason for that is I care more about the negative impact to my wallet (when it's coerced) than I do about all the benefit that might come about otherwise. Now, if that's thought to somehow reveal some underlying secret reasoning behind my stance on the abortion related issues, then that's a delusion particular to someone other than myself.

The effect on your wallet would be positive--the reduction in the welfare rolls would pay for it.
Wouldn't that open the door for claims of racism?

I had a very strong suspicion it would be said that it would be a positive effect. But yes, twisted as it is, I might fare better paying for something I don't want so the burden of something else I'm paying for that I don't want won't be as financially burdensome.

Ok. In favor. But, I'm watching. The moment I think the cost structure somehow excludes my decreased portion, I'm switching back.
 
The effect on your wallet would be positive--the reduction in the welfare rolls would pay for it.
Wouldn't that open the door for claims of racism?

I had a very strong suspicion it would be said that it would be a positive effect. But yes, twisted as it is, I might fare better paying for something I don't want so the burden of something else I'm paying for that I don't want won't be as financially burdensome.

Ok. In favor. But, I'm watching. The moment I think the cost structure somehow excludes my decreased portion, I'm switching back.

Welcome back.

The point I wanted to make with my previous post is that your objection to paying for birth control could be applied to any government service, from healthcare to national defense. Why did you choose birth control above others, do you object to all financing of social good through taxation?
 
Wouldn't that open the door for claims of racism?

I had a very strong suspicion it would be said that it would be a positive effect. But yes, twisted as it is, I might fare better paying for something I don't want so the burden of something else I'm paying for that I don't want won't be as financially burdensome.

Ok. In favor. But, I'm watching. The moment I think the cost structure somehow excludes my decreased portion, I'm switching back.

Welcome back.

The point I wanted to make with my previous post is that your objection to paying for birth control could be applied to any government service, from healthcare to national defense. Why did you choose birth control above others, do you object to all financing of social good through taxation?
It can be applied, as you say, but I pick and choose. I wouldn't object to reasonable (or perhaps even a little more than that) taxation in regards to national defense. That's something as a nation we ought to pull together and support. Keeping certain people out the maternity ward because they have pieces of shit for mothers and fathers who couldn't raise a kid to save their child tax credit dollars is just another item on a very, very long list of smothering new age take from others opportunities. Under what, the guise of improving standard of living? I think we are on the receiving end of benefits to a highly irresponsible level. A thank you? How about a thank you but no thank you. Here's an idea: if I'm burning in a building, let me die. Save the gas money and tax someone else a little less and pass on a thank you from me. It's not even so much the issues as much as it's the extreme volume of them. Everyone with a mouth can somehow find a way to articulate a justification of paying for something on someone else's dime. I'd rather drive on dirt roads than pay another penny for an increased standard of living. Yes, before someone says, I can move, no, it's the principle of the matter and blatant disregard for the money-lust impositions they place on others, so I think I have every right to be in favor of a little less lavish standard of living.
 
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