Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

You are acting as if it's over.

Yes, it's over. Dear Leader Trump the Chosen One saved the Middle East again. I heard him say it in a long, rambling speech that was perfect. And so if anything goes wrong we know whom to blame. Biden!

 

[Derec]

How many more days should the hostages have to suffer captivity over the likeliness of a future Hamas attack? Had the hostages been released six months ago, Hamas would attack again. If the hostages were released a year from now, Hamas would attack again.

Hamas right now is significantly weakened compared to six months ago. Not only have many fighters and officers been killed in that time period, and much of terror infrastructure destroyed, but top leaders like Yaya Sinwar and Mohammed Deif had been sent off to their virgins.
And if the war was continue to go on for another six months or even a year, Hamas' capabilities and leadership would have been reduced more - to the extent that it is not able to hold onto power in Gaza.

Note also that it is not just a hostages for ceasefire deal. In addition to stopping fighting, Israel is also releasing a metric shitton of prisoners. In the first phase, for 33 hostages they will have to release 2,000 prisoners. Including those who have murdered people, like this guy who stabbed an American-Israeli to death:
Ari Fuld's brother: 'The release of his murderer hurts because of the next victims'

Terrorist Khalil Yusef Ali Jabarin was 16 years old at the time he stabbed Ari Fuld outside a shopping center in Gush Etzion. Fuld, a 40-year-old father of four, was a member of the rapid response team in Efrat, the town where he lived. After Jabarin stabbed him, Fuld fought back, even shooting at his attacker. However, Fuld had suffered critical injuries, and the hospital was forced to declare his death.
In 2020, Jabarin was sentenced to life in prison and ordered to pay damages to the Fuld family.
In 2023, five years after the murder, the Palestinian Authority (PA) doubled Jabarin's monthly salary, raising it from $522 per month to $1,044 per month. At that time, the PA had already paid Jabarin a total of $25,726.

This is true about all these terrorists being released:

"The release of Ari's murderer hurts," Fuld wrote. "Not because our murderer is more important than the murderer of another family; I am pained by Ari's loss every day, in the past and in the future."
"My biggest problem, and everyone else's, is the next people to be murdered and the net families who will unfortunately join the bereaved families due to this awful deal. But before and after everything, I know that the 'the Strength of Israel will neither lie nor repent.'"

This was also true of many of the the terrorists released in the Shalit deal. Including Yaya Sinwar, who went on to lead Hamas before he was quadcoptered last October.

Furthermore, releasing large number of terror prisoners for hostages merely encourages Hamas et al to attempt to capture more hostages in the future. It is counterproductive. While I am happy for the 33 hostages being released, I fear that this deal will lead to death of many more Israelis in the future.

Without any global leadership regarding the Hamas issue, a Hamas attack is certain.

And that has been lacking. Biden started out strong, agreeing with Israel that Hamas must be destroyed. But more recently, largely due to pressures from the left-wing nutjobs from his own party, he has retreated from that position. This rotten ceasefire deal has been pushed by Biden since last May.

 

[Derec]

Another issue is that unless and until Hamas is removed from power, no real reconstruction can commence.
Let's look at this article.
How Long Will It Take and How Much Will It Cost to Rebuild Gaza?

And it's unclear when — or even if — much will be rebuilt.
The agreement for a phased ceasefire and the release of hostages held by Hamas-led militants does not say who will govern Gaza after the war, or whether Israel and Egypt will lift a blockade limiting the movement of people and goods that they imposed when Hamas seized power in 2007.
The United Nations says that it could take more than 350 years to rebuild if the blockade remains.

There is no question that the so-called "blockade" must be maintained as long as Hamas (or a similar terror entity ) is in power. Building materials such as steel and concrete would otherwise be redirected toward rebuilding the tunnel infrastructure, rockets and similar.

Before anything can be rebuilt, the rubble must be removed — a staggering task in itself.
The U.N. estimates that the war has littered Gaza with over 50 million tons of rubble — roughly 12 times the size of the Great Pyramid of Giza. With over 100 trucks working full time, it would take over 15 years to clear the rubble away, and there is little open space in the narrow coastal territory that is home to some 2.3 million Palestinians.

15 years is clearly too long. Make it ~2,000 trucks, plus ~1,000 backhoes and ~10,000 workers (providing much needed jobs) and it can be done in 9 months, give or take. But that necessitates being able to deliver this equipment and much investment, which will likely not happen (and neither should it) while Hamas is in power.
Lack of open space is not the issue. Even before the war, most of Gaza population was concentrated in the built up areas, with much open space surrounding it. And 50M tons would not take a prohibitive amount of space. If we assume average density of about 2,500 kg/m³ for the rubble, this would come out to 20M m³. If they pile the rubble to a height of 10m, that is a 2x1 km rectangle.

Given that this rotten ceasefire keeps Hamas in power, none of this will happen. What I think is likely to happen instead is that individual families will start rebuilding themselves, fixing the damaged shells of their buildings or building ad hoc structures as best they can repurposing the rubble as building materials. That is dangerous, since there are toxic chemicals and unexploded ordinance in the rubble, but it is what it is.

 

[Arctish]

You still don't get it--Gaza is a symptom, not the problem. The problem is the terror money. You keep trying to treat the symptom and pretend that will fix the problem.

How in the heck is there going to be terror money if a deal with the Emirates, Saudi Arabia, and the west funding the rebuilding of Gaza. You think any of them will tolerate their money to rebuild structures that'll be pounded back down by Israel in retaliation for the latest Iranian funded assault on Israel? Having the Arabs help fund, in large part, the reconstruction would be enough of a self-reinforcing block to terror funding in Gaza.

Your problem is, you aren't good at solving real problems and using diplomacy to entrap those into positions they wouldn't have otherwise taken.

Summer child!

Europe has already been funding stuff whose purpose is to be destroyed for PR purposes. They do things like build "schools" on land they don't own and with no local need and basically just a shell.

And Iran would be happy to pound to rubble anything that Saudi Arabia funded.

I'm talking to a wall here.

Yeah.

The school Loren is talking about (why the scare quotes, Loren?) was donated by the EU and set up in a Palestinian village outside of Israel. Israel stole the buildings and sold them off.

Loren says people donate humanitarian aid to Palestinians so that Israelis will look bad when they steal it. Of course, that argument hinges on the presumption that Israelis will steal donated humanitarian aid, but apparently he doesn't think that's an anti-Semitic slur because he's Bullshitting for Israel

How about some honesty?

I'm not talking about anyone stealing anything. I'm talking about the EU funding buildings on land they know the Palestinians don't own. It's being done entirely for propaganda purposes.

Honesty would be very good. Linking to your sources and accurately reporting what they say would be even better.

We talked about those school buildings before. Do you really need me to find those old posts to remind you that the village that received them is not inside Israel, and not under Israeli civil rule? Yes, the entire West Bank is under military occupation but the village is located in Area B and therefore under Palestinian Authority civil administration and rule.

The truth is Israel stole donated humanitarian aid and sold it, and I'm not going to pretend I think you're incapable of remembering that.

And the truth is, your complaint that the EU donates aid to the Palestinians in order to make Israel look bad when Israelis take it firmly rests on the notion that Israel will take donated aid away from Palestinians.

Or should I be allowed to come and build a house on your property??

You realize that's an argument against the building of settlements on land seized from Palestinians, right? That it's an argument against any Israeli building houses in villages seized by Zionists during Plan Dalet's execution unless they are the non-Jews who were targeted or their heirs? That it is an argument against any development in Gaza or the West Bank that is not done by and for Palestinians?

You probably don't, but you should think about it.

And I used quotes because it wasn't ever going to be a functioning school. Note your source!

Middle East Monitor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's financed by the state of Qatar. In other words, another terrorist mouthpiece. It's got to be bad for Wikipedia to admit it right up top.

Well, who do you want to hear it from?

The last time we discussed it we used The Guardian as a primary source but if you have another source of information on what happened to those donated buildings, link to it.

 

[Arctish]

Israel has intensified bombing and attacks in Gaza in advance of the coming cease fire. Cause as much destuction as possible before the agreement kicks in.

Hanas has turned a large proportion of civilian houses into military installations. So it makes sense

If Hamas cared about the civilian population they would keep military infrastructure away from civilian. But that's not how Hanas rolls

You forgot to link to the evidence that supports ^this^ claim.

Try a newspaper. I don't see how you can think his claim is the least bit controversial.

IOW, you believe it because you believe it, and that's why you believe it.

I'm sure there are some posters who appreciate your efforts to relieve them of the burden of backing up their claims with links to sources of information, but you're not actually helping them. What would help them is if you provided the information they forgot to include in their post, if it exists.

Speaking of which, there is a huge backlog of requests for you to support your claims in this thread. You should get started on that.

 

[TomC]

IOW, you believe it because you believe it, and that's why you believe it.

Just like your beliefs that Israel has committed war crimes and Netanyahu is a war criminal.
Tom

 

[Swammerdami]

It's fake. In a real genocide you would see far more dead and a far higher percentage of civilians.

I ask you again what data you used to come to that conclusion?

It's been asked of you several times before but you have yet to respond. I expect no response again.

Recently I encountered a scientific paper that actually counted the number of dead Palestinian women and children and compared these portions with more "humane" wars (ha ha ha) and concluded that Israel probably was committing war crimes (I don't remember exactly how they phrased their conclusion), EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of the conclusion that Loren reaches!!

No, I don't think I will bother to hunt down the URL. The pro-Netanyahu ilk wouldn't be bothered to read it.

 

[TomC]

No, I don't think I will bother to hunt down the URL. The pro-Netanyahu ilk wouldn't be bothered to read it.

How do you distinguish between pro-Netanyahu ilk and the pro-multi ethnic and democracy ilk?
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

No, I don't think I will bother to hunt down the URL. The pro-Netanyahu ilk wouldn't be bothered to read it.

How do you distinguish between pro-Netanyahu ilk and the pro-multi ethnic and democracy ilk?
Tom

Since the Netanyahu ilk is neither pro-multi ethnic, it isn't hard at all.

 

[TomC]

No, I don't think I will bother to hunt down the URL. The pro-Netanyahu ilk wouldn't be bothered to read it.

How do you distinguish between pro-Netanyahu ilk and the pro-multi ethnic and democracy ilk?
Tom

Since the Netanyahu ilk is neither pro-multi ethnic, it isn't hard at all.

You believe that why, exactly?

Ever looked at stats on Israeli citizens? Last I saw on Wikipedia,
Practicing Jews 50%
Ethnic non practicing Jews 20%
Arabic Muslim 20%
Other 10%

Compare that to the violent terrorist people they are surrounded by and have been under assault or threat of assault since May 1948.
Tom

 

[Spacetime Inhabitant]

No, I don't think I will bother to hunt down the URL. The pro-Netanyahu ilk wouldn't be bothered to read it.

How do you distinguish between pro-Netanyahu ilk and the pro-multi ethnic and democracy ilk?
Tom

Since the Netanyahu ilk is neither pro-multi ethnic, it isn't hard at all.

You believe that why, exactly?

Ever looked at stats on Israeli citizens? Last I saw on Wikipedia,
Practicing Jews 50%
Ethnic non practicing Jews 20%
Arabic Muslim 20%
Other 10%

Compare that to the violent terrorist people they are surrounded by and have been under assault or threat of assault since May 1948.
Tom

So, if its that bad an environment why did they choose to live there? Indeed, why did they establish Israel there instead of a more hospitable place such as in the USA?

 

[laughing dog]

No, I don't think I will bother to hunt down the URL. The pro-Netanyahu ilk wouldn't be bothered to read it.

How do you distinguish between pro-Netanyahu ilk and the pro-multi ethnic and democracy ilk?
Tom

Since the Netanyahu ilk is neither pro-multi ethnic, it isn't hard at all.

You believe that why, exactly?

Ever looked at stats on Israeli citizens? Last I saw on Wikipedia,
Practicing Jews 50%
Ethnic non practicing Jews 20%
Arabic Muslim 20%
Other 10%

Compare that to the violent terrorist people they are surrounded by and have been under assault or threat of assault since May 1948.
Tom

Perhaps you could explain how those statistics show that Netanhayu and his ilk are pro multi-ethnic? Then how a comparison with anyone else shows the same thing?

 

[Arctish]

IOW, you believe it because you believe it, and that's why you believe it.

Just like your beliefs that Israel has committed war crimes and Netanyahu is a war criminal.
Tom

I post links to news reports, official statements from government offices, articles from historians, researchers, participants in and witnesses to events, etc., that support my claims. I request that others support their claims as well.

What do you do?

Do you read the linked articles, or do you simply skip over them and then conclude they don't exist?

If you'd like to read the links I have posted or refresh your memory of what I said about Netanyahu or war crimes, this forum has an easy to use Search feature.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's fake. In a real genocide you would see far more dead and a far higher percentage of civilians.

I ask you again what data you used to come to that conclusion?

It's been asked of you several times before but you have yet to respond. I expect no response again.

Recently I encountered a scientific paper that actually counted the number of dead Palestinian women and children and compared these portions with more "humane" wars (ha ha ha) and concluded that Israel probably was committing war crimes (I don't remember exactly how they phrased their conclusion), EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of the conclusion that Loren reaches!!

No, I don't think I will bother to hunt down the URL. The pro-Netanyahu ilk wouldn't be bothered to read it.

There have been various "scientific" efforts to bash Israel. Doesn't make them right.

I wonder what "humane" wars they are comparing it to? The "humane" wars occur out of the cities (Iraq) or in areas where the civilians have evacuated and aren't remotely reasonable comparisons.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The cease fire is holding at this writing and 3 hostages have been released. Respite from violence and the return of some hostages is good news for now.

They haven't even agreed to release all the hostages. I can't imagine how this is "over".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Furthermore, releasing large number of terror prisoners for hostages merely encourages Hamas et al to attempt to capture more hostages in the future. It is counterproductive. While I am happy for the 33 hostages being released, I fear that this deal will lead to death of many more Israelis in the future.

Without any global leadership regarding the Hamas issue, a Hamas attack is certain.

And that has been lacking. Biden started out strong, agreeing with Israel that Hamas must be destroyed. But more recently, largely due to pressures from the left-wing nutjobs from his own party, he has retreated from that position. This rotten ceasefire deal has been pushed by Biden since last May.

Exactly. This is a clear Hamas victory that will virtually certainly be like such deals in the past--kill more than they save.

 

[laughing dog]

The cease fire is holding at this writing and 3 hostages have been released. Respite from violence and the return of some hostages is good news for now.

They haven't even agreed to release all the hostages. I can't imagine how this is "over".

No one said it is over. What are you on about?

 

[bilby]

So, if its that bad an environment why did they choose to live there? Indeed, why did they establish Israel there instead of a more hospitable place such as in the USA?

They would trust the USA? The very USA that had blocked Jews that were trying to get away from Hitler? (Admittedly, before the Holocaust was known about.)

Oh, the Holocaust was known about. But most people just handwaved it away as obviously hyperbolic propaganda.

You know, just like some folks do when people suggest that there's a genocide happening in Gaza. You can rationalise literally any evidence as lies, exaggerations, or misunderstandings.

 

[Derec]

You know, just like some folks do when people suggest that there's a genocide happening in Gaza.

There is certainly no genocide in Gaza.

 

[Derec]

The "humane" wars occur out of the cities (Iraq) or in areas where the civilians have evacuated and aren't remotely reasonable comparisons.

Not accounting for confounders is the hallmark of hack research.