Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[ZiprHead]

Gaza had autonomy.

WTAF???

 

[steve_bank]

Gaza had autonomy.

WTAF???

Yes, WTF?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Are you REALLY this ... obstinate? If an outside group stole YOUR home, or even one of your friends' homes, would YOU feel no resentment? What if 700,000 outsiders invaded your locality? Are you capable of understanding that such mistreatments annoy Palestinians?

And BTW, Israel had illegal settlements in Gaza as recently as 2005. Doubtless they'd plan for more if their ethnic cleansing succeeds.

The problem here is that you have swallowed the Hamas propaganda that the conflict is about Israeli actions.

1) As I keep pointing out and everyone keeps ignoring: it's the money that's driving it.

2) Even if true the Israeli action that started the war was it's existence. Thus the only "solution" along those lines is Hitler's Final Solution. Is that what you want?

I see a whole bunch of people on here doggedly determined to find peace under the Israeli streetlight. It's a desperate attempt to do something--never mind if there's a viable something to be done. "Just do something!" almost always produces either an illusion (Paris, Kyoto) or a worse outcome (PATRIOT act.) If a problem doesn't have a good answer you can be sure that there's somebody waiting in the wings with whatever they want and they will dress it up as a solution to the problem.

 

[Politesse]

2) Even if true the Israeli action that started the war was it's existence. Thus the only "solution" along those lines is Hitler's Final Solution. Is that what you want?

So in your universe, one must support genocide, because they only alternative to genocide is genocide? As opposed to, say, not genocide?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The 150,l00 is a based on the concept of excess deaths, not a body count. Excess deaths are are typically defined as the difference between the observed numbers of deaths in specific time periods and expected numbers of deaths in the same time periods. It is a statistical estimate.

The problem here is that we have "excess" deaths around 3x the total deaths. Had Israel not invaded were 100,000 Palestinians going to come back from the dead?

If Israel had not invaded there'd be no excess deaths by definition.

Reality check time. You seem to fail to understand the point that you're claiming excess deaths that nobody can find. 150,000 excess deaths in a period with ~50,000 deaths. That leaves either somehow people are dying multiple times, or people are being resurrected. Or it means you're arguing a strawman.

We have an unchanging "10,000" bodies in the rubble, you are asserting there's 100,000 bodies in Gaza that nobody knows anything about.

How much stock one takes in such estimates is up to the individual. But their underlying point in this context is that deaths attributable to conflict exceed the body count from bullets and bombs.

Yeah, I understand. Reality wasn't bad enough for them so they had to pull some numbers out of their asses.

Hard to argue with the emperor of pulling stuff out of their ass.

So you're attacking me rather than address the point.

 

[steve_bank]

Dr Z appears ignorant of history.

Go back to the British Mandate. Depending on which side you look at both Arabs and militant Jews were terrorists. Menachim Begin future leader of Israel was part of bombing a hotel.

Simplistically Jews declared a state siezing land and denying right of return to Arabs outside the declared borders. As Palestinians are doing now, Jews under the British Mandate ran the weapons embargo and set up weapons manufacturing. It is not stretch to compare Palestinians under Israeli occupation to Jews under British occupation.

In the first war and two flowing wars Arab coalitions tried to destroy Israel and failed, they were humiliated. While Iran did not participate. the destruction of Israel became Arab and Iranian policy.

Eventuay Jordan and Egypt made peace with Israel, but the underlying hatred is there.The Israeli and Egyptian leaders were assassinated by their own people for making peace. Leaders may want peace on both sides, but many people on both sides do not. Deep hared on all sides.

Way back wen I joined an earlier version of the forum I etched online documentaries and read on the conflict. It is not a simple black and white dichotomy. Until the Gaza War I took a what I thought was a balanced view, both sides had valid issues. I can no longer support Israel as I once did. Nothing to do with antisemitism, it is about actions and polices.

Arab–Israeli conflict - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Swammerdami]

The computed guesstimate of 150,000+ may be high, but the abuse of Palestinians is certainly severe.

The UN is estimating that the population of Gaza has decreased by nearly 200,000 people [about half of whom have fled Gaza] in just the last nine months amid Israel’s siege — a number reflective of the speed and brutality of Israel’s genocide and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their land.
...
[A] death toll is likely an undercount, as officials are unable to tally deaths of (21000-children-are-missing-in-gaza-on-top-of-over-15000-killed-by-israel) those missing under the rubble and deaths due to causes like starvation that are happening outside of medical facilities.
...
The UN also recently raised its estimate of the number of Palestinians who Israel has forcibly displaced since October, from 1.7 million to 1.9 million. This amounts to roughly 9 in 10 people in Gaza, many of whom have been displaced multiple times.
...
Humanitarian officials have warned that aid distribution has become virtually impossible as Israel not only blocks aid from entering, but also obstructs aid convoys as they travel around the region and relentlessly target aid workers. It has become so dire that the UN has reportedly warned that it will have to suspend operations in Gaza if Israeli forces don’t take steps to stop killing aid workers.

 

[laughing dog]

Gaza had autonomy.

WTAF???

Hamas had autonomy because they choose to attack Israel. On the other hand Israel had no choice to react exactly how they did, so Israel had no autonomy. That is the logic that befuddles Hamas "apologists", the antisemites, and the pro-genocide of Israelis group in this thread.

 

[laughing dog]

2) Even if true the Israeli action that started the war was it's existence. Thus the only "solution" along those lines is Hitler's Final Solution. Is that what you want?

So in your universe, one must support genocide, because they only alternative to genocide is genocide? As opposed to, say, not genocide?

Dude, it;s not genocide if you disapprove of the victims.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

2) Even if true the Israeli action that started the war was it's existence. Thus the only "solution" along those lines is Hitler's Final Solution. Is that what you want?

So in your universe, one must support genocide, because they only alternative to genocide is genocide? As opposed to, say, not genocide?

1) Calling it "genocide" is Hamas propaganda. Civilians dying in war is not genocide. And we have a couple of recent leaks to show that the Hamas numbers are bogus, it's mostly military age men that are dying.

2) If genocide is inevitable I would prefer it happen to the side that chose the conflict. Hamas.

 

[laughing dog]

The 150,l00 is a based on the concept of excess deaths, not a body count. Excess deaths are are typically defined as the difference between the observed numbers of deaths in specific time periods and expected numbers of deaths in the same time periods. It is a statistical estimate.

The problem here is that we have "excess" deaths around 3x the total deaths. Had Israel not invaded were 100,000 Palestinians going to come back from the dead?

If Israel had not invaded there'd be no excess deaths by definition.

Reality check time. You seem to fail to understand the point that you're claiming excess deaths that nobody can find. 150,000 excess deaths in a period with ~50,000 deaths. That leaves either somehow people are dying multiple times, or people are being resurrected. Or it means you're arguing a strawman.

Reality check indeed. The 50,000 refers to people reported as directly killed by the IDF. It does not include deaths from other causes. Excess deaths are an attempt to capture deaths from noncombatant causes that occurred due to the conditions in Gaza caused by the bombing. For example, if someone died from drinking contaminated water or exposure due to destroyed infrastructure, that would count as an "excess death".

Excess deaths are estimates. Estimates depend on assumptions and the accuracy of the underlying data. I am not claiming any excess deaths but pointing out your responses appear to completely ignore what an excess death is. It is one thing to claim an estimate is vastly exaggerated, it is another to make stupid claims about dead being resurrected.

We have an unchanging "10,000" bodies in the rubble, you are asserting there's 100,000 bodies in Gaza that nobody knows anything about.

How much stock one takes in such estimates is up to the individual. But their underlying point in this context is that deaths attributable to conflict exceed the body count from bullets and bombs.

Yeah, I understand. Reality wasn't bad enough for them so they had to pull some numbers out of their asses.

Hard to argue with the emperor of pulling stuff out of their ass.

So you're attacking me rather than address the point.

Not at all. Pointing out the irony.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The computed guesstimate of 150,000+ may be high, but the abuse of Palestinians is certainly severe.

The UN is estimating that the population of Gaza has decreased by nearly 200,000 people [about half of whom have fled Gaza] in just the last nine months amid Israel’s siege — a number reflective of the speed and brutality of Israel’s genocide and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their land.
...
[A] death toll is likely an undercount, as officials are unable to tally deaths of (21000-children-are-missing-in-gaza-on-top-of-over-15000-killed-by-israel) those missing under the rubble and deaths due to causes like starvation that are happening outside of medical facilities.
...
The UN also recently raised its estimate of the number of Palestinians who Israel has forcibly displaced since October, from 1.7 million to 1.9 million. This amounts to roughly 9 in 10 people in Gaza, many of whom have been displaced multiple times.
...
Humanitarian officials have warned that aid distribution has become virtually impossible as Israel not only blocks aid from entering, but also obstructs aid convoys as they travel around the region and relentlessly target aid workers. It has become so dire that the UN has reportedly warned that it will have to suspend operations in Gaza if Israeli forces don’t take steps to stop killing aid workers.

The UN isn't remotely credible. But look at how their numbers do not support your position.

Declined by 200,000--but half fled. That means only 100,000 dead. Pretty hard to have 150,000 excess out of 100,000.

This is the first I've heard a claim of 21,000 missing children. They have consistently claimed 10,000 bodies under the rubble, but otherwise tallied the deaths.

Deaths by starvation? They have managed to trot out 1 case of starvation--but the rest of his family looked fine. Medical, not lack of food. And the people don't look like they're starving. If there were a bunch of starving people why do the cameras never show them?

I'm not arguing about displaced. Lots have been. It's the inevitable result of putting military stuff amongst civilian stuff.

Aid distribution? There is large scale diversion of aid and there's exactly one group capable of doing that: Hamas. It's the same story as always--Hamas steals the aid, the UN blames Israel. And an awful lot of aid is simply piling up because the UN won't pay market rate for drivers. As for targeting "aid workers"--when Hamas takes over aid trucks that ceases to be aid and become valid military targets. Hamas wants the people to have no options but to do what Hamas wants. If Israel were really interfering why does the distribution work so much better in Israeli-controlled areas?

 

[Politesse]

Calling it "genocide" is Hamas propaganda. Civilians dying in war is not genocide. And we have a couple of recent leaks to show that the Hamas numbers are bogus, it's mostly military age men that are dying.

If this is true, then calling a terrorist act, however heinous, is similarly "mere propoganda". I would argue that intent should matter. Mass murder is obviously the intent of some factions in both Israel and Palestine, and their "solutions" should be universally rejected and they shunned. The extermination of whole people, faiths, communities is not an acceptable or effective means of resolving international conflicts, and it cannot be tolerated.

 

[Politesse]

2) Even if true the Israeli action that started the war was it's existence. Thus the only "solution" along those lines is Hitler's Final Solution. Is that what you want?

So in your universe, one must support genocide, because they only alternative to genocide is genocide? As opposed to, say, not genocide?

Dude, it;s not genocide if you disapprove of the victims.

This is, unfortunately, a very popular and common perspective.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Dr Z appears ignorant of history.

Go back to the British Mandate. Depending on which side you look at both Arabs and militant Jews were terrorists. Menachim Begin future leader of Israel was part of bombing a hotel.

Simplistically Jews declared a state siezing land and denying right of return to Arabs outside the declared borders. As Palestinians are doing now, Jews under the British Mandate ran the weapons embargo and set up weapons manufacturing. It is not stretch to compare Palestinians under Israeli occupation to Jews under British occupation.

In the first war and two flowing wars Arab coalitions tried to destroy Israel and failed, they were humiliated. While Iran did not participate. the destruction of Israel became Arab and Iranian policy.

Eventuay Jordan and Egypt made peace with Israel, but the underlying hatred is there.The Israeli and Egyptian leaders were assassinated by their own people for making peace. Leaders may want peace on both sides, but many people on both sides do not. Deep hared on all sides.

Way back wen I joined an earlier version of the forum I etched online documentaries and read on the conflict. It is not a simple black and white dichotomy. Until the Gaza War I took a what I thought was a balanced view, both sides had valid issues. I can no longer support Israel as I once did. Nothing to do with antisemitism, it is about actions and polices.

Arab–Israeli conflict - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bullshit and also irrelevant. And none of this matters any longer. Wars are messy. The Jews kept winning. Now we have the situation we have and unless we accept that fact we will have perpetual war

 

[DrZoidberg]

Gaza had autonomy.

WTAF???

Hamas had autonomy because they choose to attack Israel. On the other hand Israel had no choice to react exactly how they did, so Israel had no autonomy. That is the logic that befuddles Hamas "apologists", the antisemites, and the pro-genocide of Israelis group in this thread.

Are you enjoying your victim blaming?

 

[Emily Lake]

2) Even if true the Israeli action that started the war was it's existence. Thus the only "solution" along those lines is Hitler's Final Solution. Is that what you want?

So in your universe, one must support genocide, because they only alternative to genocide is genocide? As opposed to, say, not genocide?

That's not what Loren is saying, and you should be able to infer that on your own, Poli.

Israel has tried repeatedly for decades to keep some sort of peace with muslims living within Israel's borders - and whether you like it or not, Palestine is not a separate country, it is part of the nation of Israel, where Israel has essentially ceded a degree of independence within it's own border to the people who live there. But the residents of that stretch of land have repeated initiated altercations with Israel, including this most recent situation.

The only solution that Hamas, Palestine, and the entire Muslim region will accept is the extermination of Jews. They've proven that over and over again.

 

[Politesse]

Israel has tried repeatedly for decades to keep some sort of peace with muslims living within Israel's borders - and c, it is part of the nation of Israel, where Israel has essentially ceded a degree of independence within it's own border to the people who live there. But the residents of that stretch of land have repeated initiated altercations with Israel, including this most recent situation.

"Tried to keep some sort of peace" is a desription unattached to the reality of Israel's treatment of Palestinians, but even were that not the case, my recommendation to them would be to continue doing so, not to wage bloody ethnocidal war against children. If I believed that peace were ever Netanyahu's conviction, I would applaud him for that, and encourage him to explore ever more effective means of guaranteeing it.

Tell me, Emily, if your neighbor threatened to kill you, would you walk over to his house and shoot him in the head? What about his wife? What about his children? What about his friends? Where would your personal desire for weregild end? Would your answer be different if he had in fact killed someone you knew? Would you then attempt to kill him back? What about his wife? His children? His friends?

whether you like it or not, Palestine is not a separate country

Do you offer that clarification because you think I am more likely to approve of a nation that slaughters its own citizens, who should have the rights of any other citizen, than of one that wars against its neighbor? If so, I am afraid I must disappoint. No, I do not think a nation has a right to murder its citizens en masse simply because they are citizens, or indeed at all, for any reason.

the entire Muslim region

In context, this is also a terrifying statement. Do you truly believe that waqe should be waged, not just against Palestinian civilians, but every Muslim community in the world? You realize there are significant Muslim populations in your own country, right? Would you support the murder of your own countrymen as well?

 

[laughing dog]

Gaza had autonomy.

WTAF???

Hamas had autonomy because they choose to attack Israel. On the other hand Israel had no choice to react exactly how they did, so Israel had no autonomy. That is the logic that befuddles Hamas "apologists", the antisemites, and the pro-genocide of Israelis group in this thread.

Are you enjoying your victim blaming?

That makes no sense to me. Please explain your reasoning.

 

[laughing dog]

2) Even if true the Israeli action that started the war was it's existence. Thus the only "solution" along those lines is Hitler's Final Solution. Is that what you want?

So in your universe, one must support genocide, because they only alternative to genocide is genocide? As opposed to, say, not genocide?

That's not what Loren is saying, and you should be able to infer that on your own, Poli.

Israel has tried repeatedly for decades to keep some sort of peace with muslims living within Israel's borders - and whether you like it or not, Palestine is not a separate country, it is part of the nation of Israel, where Israel has essentially ceded a degree of independence within it's own border to the people who live there. But the residents of that stretch of land have repeated initiated altercations with Israel, including this most recent situation.

Your history omits crucial facts. Gaza was part of Egypt. It wasn't until 1956 when Israel invaded Gaza that it became part of the nation of Israel.

The only solution that Hamas, Palestine, and the entire Muslim region will accept is the extermination of Jews. They've proven that over and over again.

It takes a whole lot of ignorance to come up with that claim. The entire Muslim region encompasses many areas that don't really care one way or the other about Israel.