Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Politesse]

I've seen this sort of thing before--you're looking at the actions of the good guys vs the results of those actions. And thus you rate the death of one innocent at the hands of the good guys as far worse than the death of many innocents at the hands of the bad guys

Oh, bullshit. Unjust deaths in war are unjust deaths in war. I left the concepts of "good guy" and "bad guys" behind in grade school, and you should have too. It's called growing up and realizing that life is not like a television program, and wars are not like war movies.

Are you just... hallucinating some conversation in which I voiced support for Hamas? Because that never happened, nor would.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Chanting "genocide" isn't proof it's happening

There are no independent observers to “prove” anything.
The evidence consists of the bodies of victims and the accounts of their survivors.

It’s happening, unless there are tens of thousands of fake survivors.

So you're simply counting the dead and concluding genocide. That's not how it works. Given the recent oopses about dead parents and amputees it's pretty clear the majority of the dead are military age males. That's war, not genocide.

And why should I care what they say since it's whatever script Hamas gave them?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

the entire Muslim region

In context, this is also a terrifying statement. Do you truly believe that waqe should be waged, not just against Palestinian civilians, but every Muslim community in the world? You realize there are significant Muslim populations in your own country, right? Would you support the murder of your own countrymen as well?

I do agree she's going too far. Not everybody's in Iran's power. But most of the Middle East is. War will happen, the only question is on whose terms.

I'm not going too far, Poli is just playing rhetorical games, and they're fairly transparent.

I mentioned the REGION, as in the area that is functionally controlled by religious governments, and which has been continuously engaged in some sort of Jihad for decades now.

Poli somehow decided that this also means any and every muslim individual, regardless of where they live. And really, that's too stupid a mischaracterization to merit a response.

Even worse, it's a blatant snipping of my post to make it appear to mean something other than what I actually said. What I actually said was this:

The only solution that Hamas, Palestine, and the entire Muslim region will accept is the extermination of Jews. They've proven that over and over again.

As you can see, this bears no resemblance to Poli's mischaracterization of my post.

Your use of "region" is very unclear here. I certainly interpreted it as covering countries like Algeria etc that are not Iranian thralls and aren't participating in the war.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No. This isn't a proxy war on our side. It's Israel vs Iran. We aid Israel as a means of keeping the death toll down.

We aid Israel, because Israel has been a US ally since its founding, and has never been in conflict with us. And while the US sometimes plays the game of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend for now", we also stand by our allies like nobody's business. Hell, even with as much bickering as we have at the southern border, Mexico is a US ally and has been since at least WW2. If a foreign country attacked Mexico, we would go to their aid.

Disagree. We weren't helping Israel until the 73 war. At that point we saw that Israel might lose the conventional battle and resort to their nukes. And that might start WWIII. Thus we had to provide aid sufficient to avoid that happening.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That would be because you've made that claim in a context where you're casting Israel as the party executing genocide, while handwaving away and ignoring that Hamas, Iran, and several other Islamic Religious States in the Middle East have been actively and blatantly seeking the extermination of Jewish people and the entire state of Israel for our entire fucking lives, Poli.

I have never excluded any party from my stance on opposing genocide, or any other means of war that intentionally targets civilians, as an acceptable political tactic. It's a universal position that I believe all peoples and nations have both ethical and self-interested reasons to support, including Israel herself, who as you have correctly stated, has frequently been subject to its threat.

The problem is that while you "oppose" genocide by both sides you refuse to recognize that your position actually enables genocide.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

My position is that Israel has every right to defend themselves against a violent and persistent aggressor, including ousting that aggressor from power. My position is that it's irrational and cowardly to expect Israel to make itself a permanent victim in order to protect its abuser from harm. I have not in any way suggested that Israel attack other countries - that's something you've made up out of whole cloth.

No, because they see hitting back as attacking rather than as defense. Defense is a purely static thing that magically keeps them out.

 

[ZiprHead]

The problem is that while you "oppose" genocide by both sides you refuse to recognize that your position actually enables genocide.

HAMAS does not have the capability of committing genocide against the Israely people. Please stop.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Seriously, right now you're bitching and moaning that Sally hit Chad in the head with a frying pan, and what horrible domestic abuse that is, and how we should absolutely not tolerate any sort of domestic abuse at all ever... while simultaneously ignoring the fact that Chad has been beating the shit out of Sally every night for a decade, and that Sally hit Chad in self defense.

A system of justice that ignores context is no system of justice at all. But you're asking me to ignore a hell of a lot of context if you're asking me to accept two individual people arguing as a reasonable metaphor for what happens in a war between religious factions. No, Emily. Neither Israel nor any other country, religious, or political label is anything remotely like either Chad or Sally, unless Chad or Sally happen to own the deeds to a million people's homes, jobs, and lives. Nor, were I a judge, would I ever rule to allow either Chad or Sally to kill one another in payment for the others' crimes, let alone allow them to kill each other's children as weregild.

The comparison is very accurate. You speak of "allow" but that is not meaningful in this case, nobody has the power to prevent it. And you are still looking at it in terms of reprisal and payment--it is not. It is about degrading Hamas' ability to do another 10/7. Because there will be another, the only question is how long it takes them to rebuild enough to do it.

In telling Israel to play nice you are telling Sally to go back to her abuser.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What do you think makes Israel's actions constitute genocide?

Some significant fraction of the 46,006 Palestinians that have been killed and 109,378 wounded, per the local health authority?

I’m not a mind reader but that would be my first guess.

In other words, if Hamas kills enough civilians you blame Israel for genocide. Hamas is fine with that approach.

And the numbers from Hamas have been shown to be garbage.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I am also concerned about excess mortality going forward. Over the last couple of weeks, hundreds of thousands of Gazans moved back into the North. There has been widespread devastation there, so most people will likely just camp out amidst the rubble, and will have to do so for the foreseeable future.
'My home is no longer there': Palestinians return to north Gaza

And if it is there it's not safe to enter because of Hamas booby traps. Pretty much everything still standing was booby trapped.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

She chose to have children she wasn't in a position to raise and without having life insurance on the person she was counting on to help.

And this is exactly why I am calling it out as sexist, Loren. YOU have framed the entirety of it around a failing on the part of the woman. You have not once made any statements that assign responsibility to the man.

He is referring to a specific scenario from way upthread. In it, the husband is dead. That is why Loren is focusing on her choices and responsibility. It was not meant as a general statement.

Yeah, sure, the husband died - and somehow the woman should have known that he was going to die before SHE decided to have kids? Nah, Loren is placing the entire onus on the woman, including that SHE should have made sure that there was enough life insurance. Not one iota of responsibility goes to the father for the decision to have kids, nor the decision to have insufficient life insurance, it's only on the woman.

I am not. It's just he's not present to be blamed. He shares equally in the fault.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's not about retaliation. It's about reducing their ability to do it again. Because they certainly are going to.

A goal which has not been accomplished by any objective metric.

Keyword: "reducing". It certainly has been reduced.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I've seen this sort of thing before--you're looking at the actions of the good guys vs the results of those actions. And thus you rate the death of one innocent at the hands of the good guys as far worse than the death of many innocents at the hands of the bad guys

Oh, bullshit. Unjust deaths in war are unjust deaths in war. I left the concepts of "good guy" and "bad guys" behind in grade school, and you should have too. It's called growing up and realizing that life is not like a television program, and wars are not like war movies.

Are you just... hallucinating some conversation in which I voiced support for Hamas? Because that never happened, nor would.

The problem is you are putting rules of engagement on Israel that preclude defending themselves.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The problem is that while you "oppose" genocide by both sides you refuse to recognize that your position actually enables genocide.

HAMAS does not have the capability of committing genocide against the Israely people. Please stop.

Thank you for saying "again"--you're conceding their intent in 10/7 was genocidal. And just because they don't have the capability now doesn't mean they won't in the future. Iran is going to continue to fund and resupply them, there will be another attack. The only question is how long before it happens.

 

[DrZoidberg]

So how long time do you think it will take before Hamas breaks the truce? Without war, or imminent Israeli threat, Hamas has no power, so they will need to create it. It's just a matter of time before they get going again. So how long time do you think it'll take? A week? A month?

Shall we get some betting going?

Noted that you dodged Arctish's post just above this one.

The posts by Arctish and me show how ridiculous

I can't see it. I've blocked her. I see no value in engaging with someone like her. There's a lot of irrational hatred directed towards Jews now. She's a prime example

No, this is another example of you not understanding what antisemitism is

Lol. Yeah, downplay antisemitism. Well done. It's the extreme pro-Palestine bias and the unwillingness to allow Israel to protect itself and it's citizens that makes it antisemitism. I also think that supporting Hamas in this war (which you're doing if you are against Israel) makes you anti Palestinian as well. The IDF is the only player who is taking action in removing Hamas. Hamas is not doing the Palestinians any favours and never have.

and your delusional thinking that Israel can do no wrong.

Bullshit. I am and have been very critical of Israel and their policies. It's just that in this thread they've mostly been criticised for the stuff they're doing right. Which I think is because of antisemitism.

The narrative that Palestinians are second class citizens in Israel, is insane. Its just lies. Inside Israel the rights of Muslims and Christians is protected more than the rights of Jews.

your statement is.

Were your fingers crossed when you typed it or are you just that uninformed?

I hope you enjoy being wrong.

But more importantly, what motivates you to spread these antisemitic lies? You obviously haven't been bothered to look this up. So why this behavior? I don’t get it

JFK, I posted a link and a quote disproving your statement, which I note you deleted. Did you do so out of shame due to being so ridiculously wrong?

What are you talking about?

Seriously dude. Are you alright? Your posts indicate some seriously delusional thinking. No one could possibly be the perfect embodiment of a being you seem to think Israel is.

Lol. Yeah, psychopathologise those who you disagree with. Well done. You're just getting worse and worse. You've just swallowed pro-palestine propaganda. Propaganda that is nothing but lies. Extreme lies. And the western press are just republishing it uncommented. They do write "according to Hamas". But you don't seem to care about that. Instead you think that the people who pay attention to what is actually said in the news are "delusional"

It's not that the news is lying. But you need to actually give a shit what is being said and why. Otherwise you'll have a warped picture of what is going on

 

[Politesse]

I've seen this sort of thing before--you're looking at the actions of the good guys vs the results of those actions. And thus you rate the death of one innocent at the hands of the good guys as far worse than the death of many innocents at the hands of the bad guys

Oh, bullshit. Unjust deaths in war are unjust deaths in war. I left the concepts of "good guy" and "bad guys" behind in grade school, and you should have too. It's called growing up and realizing that life is not like a television program, and wars are not like war movies.

Are you just... hallucinating some conversation in which I voiced support for Hamas? Because that never happened, nor would.

The problem is you are putting rules of engagement on Israel that preclude defending themselves.

No, I'm not. Were it somehow within my power, I would "put rules of engagement" on Israel that preclude religious ethnocide against their citizens.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Ziprhead

FYI, Palestinians in Gaza or Golan heights aren't Israeli citizens. They're allowed to apply for it (by Israel). But this is frowned upon by Palestinians. So very few have applied. I think it's these Palestinians who don't want to be Israeli citizens that you refer to as "second class citizens". But they're not Isreali citizens at all. And they don't want to be.

There are 2 million Israeli Palestinians living in Israel with full citizenships. They have more rights than the Jewish Israelis. They're forcefully protected by the state. As is the 1 million Christians living in Israel.

Becoming an Israeli citizen comes with caveats. You need to be for and support the existance of Israel. That's the rub. That's why so few Palestinians want to become Isreali citizens. And pretty basic requirements for any citizen of any country IMHO.

But perhaps you didn't know that?

 

[laughing dog]

The only solution that Hamas, Palestine, and the entire Muslim region will accept is the extermination of Jews. They've proven that over and over again.

It takes a whole lot of ignorance to come up with that claim. The entire Muslim region encompasses many areas that don't really care one way or the other about Israel.

Simple test: In what countries does a Israeli passport ban you from entry? In what countries does having any evidence of having been to Israel (the stamps from any land border crossing) in your passport ban you from entry? I would say that any country that meets either of these tests cares. They're far more obsessive about it than Africa was about South Africa. There two stamps in our passports from land borders didn't matter. While I do not recall and can't check I strongly suspect our cholera boosters were in South Africa (timing's right and that was the best medical system we saw for months in either direction)--and listed in the yellow book that we presented at every border crossing. We spent a day unpacking absolutely everything and taking a sharpie to anything that said "product of South Africa", but the English/Afrikaans labels didn't matter even though Afrikaans is spoken in only one country. And the fact that we were on the Johannesburg-London overland route would hardly be secret. Many companies operated such "tours", they had to know. But so long as the words "South Africa" didn't appear they didn't object. Kampala, Uganda even provided security troops for the standard camping area--they didn't want to scare away the dollars we brought. At that time Kampala at night was not a place you wanted to be, but the troops were there to ensure the trouble stayed outside.

Cool story bro. Pointless but cool. The reasoning that leads to equating denial based on passport with approval of Jewish genocide is mind-numbing.

You said they don't care. I was presenting the difference to show they most certainly do care.

My comment was about the extermination of Jews, not their travel.
Limiting or denying entry to those with Israeli passports implies nothing about views on the genocide of Israelis. Genocide is horrific and barbaric and it takes way beyond hatred to promote.

 

[Elixir]

if Hamas kills enough civilians you blame Israel for genocide

That’s a smarmy attempt at rationalizing brutality.
Is Hamas killing and maiming six digit figures of people indiscriminately?
Didn’t think so.
It’s Israel.
If it makes you feel any better I’d be okay describing Hamas’ terror action as attempted genocide. Good thing they lack Israel’s ability to carry it out, eh?
Your kneejerk reaction to criticism of the genocidal jerk in charge of Israel is to come up with turbocharged whataboutisms involving Hamas, implying that they are being deified, or at least not being recognized as the scumbags they are.

 

[ZiprHead]

Ziprhead

FYI, Palestinians in Gaza or Golan heights aren't Israeli citizens. They're allowed to apply for it (by Israel). But this is frowned upon by Palestinians. So very few have applied. I think it's these Palestinians who don't want to be Israeli citizens that you refer to as "second class citizens". But they're not Isreali citizens at all. And they don't want to be.

All that tells me is you think because they aren't israeli citizens it's okay by you for Israel to steal from them, abuse them, and kill them.

There are 2 million Israeli Palestinians living in Israel with full citizenships. They have more rights than the Jewish Israelis. They're forcefully protected by the state. As is the 1 million Christians living in Israel.

Becoming an Israeli citizen comes with caveats. You need to be for and support the existance of Israel. That's the rub. That's why so few Palestinians want to become Isreali citizens. And pretty basic requirements for any citizen of any country IMHO.

But perhaps you didn't know that?

Already addressed which you ignored. You even quoted it but didn't respond.