Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Elixir]

Chanting "genocide" isn't proof it's happening

There are no independent observers to “prove” anything.
The evidence consists of the bodies of victims and the accounts of their survivors.

It’s happening, unless there are tens of thousands of fake survivors.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Chanting "genocide" isn't proof it's happening

There are no independent observers to “prove” anything.
The evidence consists of the bodies of victims and the accounts of their survivors.

It’s happening, unless there are tens of thousands of fake survivors.

Well, crisis acting is now one of the fastest growing occupations, a lot of people are saying.

 

[DrZoidberg]

So how long time do you think it will take before Hamas breaks the truce? Without war, or imminent Israeli threat, Hamas has no power, so they will need to create it. It's just a matter of time before they get going again. So how long time do you think it'll take? A week? A month?

Shall we get some betting going?

Noted that you dodged Arctish's post just above this one.

The posts by Arctish and me show how ridiculous

I can't see it. I've blocked her. I see no value in engaging with someone like her. There's a lot of irrational hatred directed towards Jews now. She's a prime example

The narrative that Palestinians are second class citizens in Israel, is insane. Its just lies. Inside Israel the rights of Muslims and Christians is protected more than the rights of Jews.

your statement is.

Were your fingers crossed when you typed it or are you just that uninformed?

I hope you enjoy being wrong.

But more importantly, what motivates you to spread these antisemitic lies? You obviously haven't been bothered to look this up. So why this behavior? I don’t get it

 

[laughing dog]

But more importantly, what motivates you to spread these antisemitic lies? You obviously haven't been bothered to look this up. So why this behavior? I don’t get it

It is obvious that you don't get it. It is not an antisemitic lie that Arabs in Israel are treated as second class citizens.
"2nd class" is an opinion since there is no universally accepted standard.

The opinion that Arabs are treated as 2nd class citizens is based on a number of factors, including how easy it is for Arabs to become Israeli citizenship (their acceptance rate is much lower than non-Arabs), or how they are treated by their fellow citizens, how often they are placed in temporary detention (for example, compared to Israeli settlers accused of violence), or any variety of things. It is true that they have the same rights in law, but whether the law and it is protocols are evenly administered is a different matter. In the US, black citizens had the same voting rights on paper, but not in reality.

Much of the daily 2nd class treatment of Arabs is well-documented in many sources, including www.btselem.org (a Jewish human rights organization). So please do not insult the intelligence of any participants by calling that Jewish organization "antisemitic".

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So how long time do you think it will take before Hamas breaks the truce? Without war, or imminent Israeli threat, Hamas has no power, so they will need to create it. It's just a matter of time before they get going again. So how long time do you think it'll take? A week? A month?

Shall we get some betting going?

If, as you say, all of this Blitzing Hamas has had no impact on Hamas attacking Israel again, one wonders what was the benefit of the Blitz, and whether a multi-lateral plan to get Iran out this should be considered.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The narrative that Palestinians are second class citizens in Israel, is insane. Its just lies. Inside Israel the rights of Muslims and Christians is protected more than the rights of Jews.

your statement is.

Were your fingers crossed when you typed it or are you just that uninformed?

I hope you enjoy being wrong.

But more importantly, what motivates you to spread these antisemitic lies? You obviously haven't been bothered to look this up. So why this behavior? I don’t get it

Are you suggesting that the percentage of Palestinians in poverty (before October 7th) is about the same as it was for Israelis? There are reasons for it, but to suggest that the Palestinians are equals feels out of touch. And then claim a recognition of the inadequacies is nothing short of bullying.

 

[Emily Lake]

I'm satisfied with your answer, though. That you would in fact resort to bloody vigilante justice, and burn children alive for the sake of your vendetta if they refused to leave when warned. I think you're full of shit, and that you would in fact be far too much of a coward to commit acts like yourself, but it is very revealing of the kind of world you expect us all to live in. I have no use for such savagery, personally.

Your "ethics" are absurd. Your "ethics" would require that I constantly remain a victim and allow an abuser to continue abusing me. Your"ethics" means that Ukraine as a whole is savage for having fought back when Russia invaded, and damns them irretrievably for eventually pushing the fight into Russian territory. Your "ethics" precludes self defense, and requires that all victims permanently cede sovereignty to criminals. It's anarchism in the absolute worst sense of the term.

 

[Emily Lake]

Not commit (or attempt, or intend) genocide.

What do you think makes Israel's actions constitute genocide? Can you be explicit about exactly what a genocide is, what the term applies to, and how it's appropriate in this situation?

Committing atrocities has never led to peace, and it never will. The only question is which acts of violence you are willing to sanction.

Apparently you're perfectly willing to sanction violence committed AGAINST Israel and think those atrocities should be tolerated forever.

 

[Emily Lake]

the entire Muslim region

In context, this is also a terrifying statement. Do you truly believe that waqe should be waged, not just against Palestinian civilians, but every Muslim community in the world? You realize there are significant Muslim populations in your own country, right? Would you support the murder of your own countrymen as well?

I do agree she's going too far. Not everybody's in Iran's power. But most of the Middle East is. War will happen, the only question is on whose terms.

I'm not going too far, Poli is just playing rhetorical games, and they're fairly transparent.

I mentioned the REGION, as in the area that is functionally controlled by religious governments, and which has been continuously engaged in some sort of Jihad for decades now.

Poli somehow decided that this also means any and every muslim individual, regardless of where they live. And really, that's too stupid a mischaracterization to merit a response.

Even worse, it's a blatant snipping of my post to make it appear to mean something other than what I actually said. What I actually said was this:

The only solution that Hamas, Palestine, and the entire Muslim region will accept is the extermination of Jews. They've proven that over and over again.

As you can see, this bears no resemblance to Poli's mischaracterization of my post.

 

[Emily Lake]

In what countries does a Israeli passport ban you from entry

Per wikipedia...

Countries that do not accept Israeli passports​

[edit]

Overview of restrictions on Israelis' travel freedoms in 2024:

​

State of Israel

​

Countries that reject Israeli passports

​

Countries that reject Israeli passports and non-Israeli passports that have a used/unused Israeli visa stamp or have been used for any form of travel to Israel*
*Included in this category is Iraq, but not Iraq's autonomous Kurdistan Region, which does accept Israeli visitors with full freedom of movement (see Israel–Kurdistan Region relations)​

As of 2023, 28 countries do not recognize Israel's sovereignty. 25 of these are Muslim-majority countries, of which 17 explicitly do not process Israeli passport holders, and a further six of those 17 do not admit entry to non-Israelis with any sort of ties to Israel. These 17 countries are:

[TR]
[td]

• Afghanistan
• Algeria[22]
• Bangladesh
• Brunei[23]
• Iran[24][25]
• IraqA[26]
• Kuwait[27]
• Lebanon
• Libya[28]

[/td]
[td]

• MalaysiaB[29]
• MaldivesC[30][31]
• OmanD
• Pakistan[32]
• Qatar
• Saudi ArabiaE[23]
• Syria[33]
• Yemen[34][35]

[/td]
[/TR]

 

[Emily Lake]

No. This isn't a proxy war on our side. It's Israel vs Iran. We aid Israel as a means of keeping the death toll down.

We aid Israel, because Israel has been a US ally since its founding, and has never been in conflict with us. And while the US sometimes plays the game of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend for now", we also stand by our allies like nobody's business. Hell, even with as much bickering as we have at the southern border, Mexico is a US ally and has been since at least WW2. If a foreign country attacked Mexico, we would go to their aid.

 

[Politesse]

What is the "region", Emily? Make it specific. You're calling for war, decades of war with at least thousands of casualties. It seems to me that the least you can do is clarify exactly between which countries and with what objectives? This isn't a subject that should be trivialized. You're calling for blood, guts, and brains to be spilled in your name, not rooting for a fucking sports team. Take it seriously for ten seconds. Who do you want to kill whom, for how long, with what objectives, at what cost, and what proportion of the cost or troops do you want your own country to supply to the conflict? These are not simple questions, but you have no place agitating for bloodshed unless you have some kind of answers to them. No one should sign a blank check to a war.

 

[Politesse]

No. This isn't a proxy war on our side. It's Israel vs Iran. We aid Israel as a means of keeping the death toll down.

We aid Israel, because Israel has been a US ally since its founding, and has never been in conflict with us. And while the US sometimes plays the game of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend for now", we also stand by our allies like nobody's business.

No, we backed and continue to back a certain set of factions within Israel's ongoing civil war, and were doing so well before it was a nation. The side we favor is a reasonably consistent ally, yes, and their position of power within the region is entirely contingent on their support from foreign powers, of whom the US has always been the most important by a margin.

 

[Emily Lake]

All humans except the Jews, because you are saying that Israel must do nothing to defend itself against genocide.

I've said nothing of the sort. I've said that committing genocide is wrong, and that abetting genocide is wrong. That's what you're losing your fucking mind over, because that's the only claim I've made.

That would be because you've made that claim in a context where you're casting Israel as the party executing genocide, while handwaving away and ignoring that Hamas, Iran, and several other Islamic Religious States in the Middle East have been actively and blatantly seeking the extermination of Jewish people and the entire state of Israel for our entire fucking lives, Poli.

Seriously, right now you're bitching and moaning that Sally hit Chad in the head with a frying pan, and what horrible domestic abuse that is, and how we should absolutely not tolerate any sort of domestic abuse at all ever... while simultaneously ignoring the fact that Chad has been beating the shit out of Sally every night for a decade, and that Sally hit Chad in self defense.

 

[Emily Lake]

Sherman, yes. Gaza, no. I see a lot of dead people in a war, I see no genocide.

If you don't see directly ordering the deaths of everyone belonging to a certain racial group as genocide, then I can see why you're struggling to understand how the term might or might not apply to the actions in Gaza. There's not much point in talking about this further if the basic concept of genocide is alien to you, apparently you have no idea what I've been on about this whole time.

Okay, I'll bite.

Can you provide support for your assertion that Israel has ordered the deaths of everyone belonging to a certain racial group?

 

[Politesse]

That would be because you've made that claim in a context where you're casting Israel as the party executing genocide, while handwaving away and ignoring that Hamas, Iran, and several other Islamic Religious States in the Middle East have been actively and blatantly seeking the extermination of Jewish people and the entire state of Israel for our entire fucking lives, Poli.

I have never excluded any party from my stance on opposing genocide, or any other means of war that intentionally targets civilians, as an acceptable political tactic. It's a universal position that I believe all peoples and nations have both ethical and self-interested reasons to support, including Israel herself, who as you have correctly stated, has frequently been subject to its threat.

 

[Emily Lake]

What is the "region", Emily? Make it specific. You're calling for war, decades of war with at least thousands of casualties.

I'm what now? Post proof of your assertion or retract.

It seems to me that the least you can do is clarify exactly between which countries and with what objectives? This isn't a subject that should be trivialized. You're calling for blood, guts, and brains to be spilled in your name, not rooting for a fucking sports team. Take it seriously for ten seconds. Who do you want to kill whom, for how long, with what objectives, at what cost, and what proportion of the cost or troops do you want your own country to supply to the conflict? These are notvsimple questions, but you have no plave agitating for bloodshee unless you have some kind of answers tp them. No one should sign a blank check to a war.

All of your post is a blatant and intentional mischaracterization, Poli. It bears no resemblance to what I said.

My position is that Israel has every right to defend themselves against a violent and persistent aggressor, including ousting that aggressor from power. My position is that it's irrational and cowardly to expect Israel to make itself a permanent victim in order to protect its abuser from harm. I have not in any way suggested that Israel attack other countries - that's something you've made up out of whole cloth.

 

[Emily Lake]

That would be because you've made that claim in a context where you're casting Israel as the party executing genocide, while handwaving away and ignoring that Hamas, Iran, and several other Islamic Religious States in the Middle East have been actively and blatantly seeking the extermination of Jewish people and the entire state of Israel for our entire fucking lives, Poli.

I have never excluded any party from my stance on genocide, it's a universal position that I believe all peoples and nations have both ethical and self-interested reasons to support, including Israel herself, who is as you have correctly stated, has frequently been subject to its threat.

Your entire schpiel in this thread has essentially been that Israel should back down and just continue to let Hamas attack them whenever the fuck Hamas feels like it. You've only managed to comment on Hamas and other islamic states after having been directly called out on your hypocrisy. It's only been within the last few pages that you've managed to even bother to recognize that those other entities started this, and have repeatedly started shit for our whole lives.

But hey, no problem. Sally should totally be condemned, after all, shit hit Chad in the head with a frying pan, what a bloodthirsty bitch she is, amirite?

 

[Emily Lake]

No. This isn't a proxy war on our side. It's Israel vs Iran. We aid Israel as a means of keeping the death toll down.

We aid Israel, because Israel has been a US ally since its founding, and has never been in conflict with us. And while the US sometimes plays the game of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend for now", we also stand by our allies like nobody's business.

No, we backed and continue to back a certain set of factions within Israel's ongoing civil war, and were doing so well before it was a nation.

The alternative is pretty much to let the surrounding Islamic states exterminate all the Jewish people. What's your preference?

The side we favor is a reasonably consistent ally, yes, and their position of power within the region is entirely contingent on their support from foreign powers, of whom the US has always been the most important by a margin.

That's a pointless statement. For any country that the US is an ally to, we're the most important ally by a wide margin. You might dislike it, and you're certainly entitled to opine on whether you think it's appropriate or not... but the reality is that the US *is* the world police, and we *are* the big dog in the yard.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

No. This isn't a proxy war on our side. It's Israel vs Iran. We aid Israel as a means of keeping the death toll down.

We aid Israel, because Israel has been a US ally since its founding, and has never been in conflict with us. And while the US sometimes plays the game of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend for now", we also stand by our allies like nobody's business.

No, we backed and continue to back a certain set of factions within Israel's ongoing civil war, and were doing so well before it was a nation.

The alternative is pretty much to let the surrounding Islamic states exterminate all the Jewish people. What's your preference?

My preference would be people being capable of having a discussion on Irsael/Hamas/Iran/Saudi Arabia like adults, and not devolving into hyperbole every other post. Emilys on about the genocide of Israel, Politesse on about the genocide of the Gazans.

Thousands of posts in the other thread and virtually no progress of even an understanding between posters here. The topic is so bitter, should call it Hemlock.