Well... it's Trump... again. #47, here we go.

[Jimmy Higgins]

Trump wanted half of Ukraine's rare-earth metals?! <--- shared link

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky rejected a Trump administration request this week that Kyiv hand over 50 percent of its rare-earth mineral resources in exchange for continued U.S. assistance to the war-struck country. Ukrainian officials are working on a counterproposal that would still offer Washington more access to the country’s natural resources, four people familiar with the discussions said.

I understood Trump wanted some deal, but I had no idea how fucking stupid is opening offer would be. How do you even follow through with this? Fuck, Ukraine could offer 1/4 and then Russia offers 1/3.

Trump is killing our nation's standing.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

https://www.crisisgroup.org/africa/southern-africa/south-africa/land-reform-south-africa-fact-and-fiction

A lot of good information in the article.

Apologists:

According to South Africa’s ruling African National Congress (ANC), the proposed amendment would introduce greater clarity to existing expropriation provisions, though it would remove the stipulation “subject to compensation”.

In other words, they're going to steal it.

Should steal be in quotes seeing how it was stolen from the blacks in the early part of the 20th century?

I get this is a very complicated situation. People that own the land now are not directly the people that inherited it from the Government when it was taken in 1913 as part of the Native Land Act. Whites still currently own 75% or so of the land, despite being less than 10% of the population. This is going to lead to problems. It needs to be managed in a viable manner, and property transitions even when funded will lead to problems. You can't just switch hands. It is too complicated, both from right of ownership (even thanks to dubious segregation policies) and competent stewardship of the land.

The property owners have got to understand that there are people that need access to some of the resources they have. Herding, farming, etc...ing, this is a team game. All sides need to be at the table. The many out there aren't looking to get rich, they are looking to barely get by. There will always be those that was to get an unfair cut from all of this and hand land over to buddies like Zimbabwe, and that must be guarded against as well.

And I sure the heck wouldn't listen to whatever Trump says about it. He probably doesn't even know that South Africa refers to a specific country, instead of just being the south part of Africa.

 

[ZiprHead]

https://www.crisisgroup.org/africa/southern-africa/south-africa/land-reform-south-africa-fact-and-fiction

A lot of good information in the article.

Apologists:

According to South Africa’s ruling African National Congress (ANC), the proposed amendment would introduce greater clarity to existing expropriation provisions, though it would remove the stipulation “subject to compensation”.

In other words, they're going to steal it.

So if a thief steals a valuable piece of jewelry from your grandmother, does the thief's grandson get to keep it even though it's known it belonged to your grandmother?

 

[Spacetime Inhabitant]

In the four years since the last time Trump was president, a lot of new classified documents would have been created, so lots more for him to steal, and probably hand copies of to his pal Putin. There would also be older documents he missed the first time around, and no doubt Putin and others have made request lists for documents that they want. Now this may be exaggeration, but given the nature of Trump it could be plausible.

 

[crazyfingers]

In the four years since the last time Trump was president, a lot of new classified documents would have been created, so lots more for him to steal, and probably hand copies of to his pal Putin. There would also be older documents he missed the first time around, and no doubt Putin and others have made request lists for documents that they want. Now this may be exaggeration, but given the nature of Trump it could be plausible.

When in US history has a President actually been a traitor?

 

[Elixir]

In the four years since the last time Trump was president, a lot of new classified documents would have been created, so lots more for him to steal, and probably hand copies of to his pal Putin. There would also be older documents he missed the first time around, and no doubt Putin and others have made request lists for documents that they want. Now this may be exaggeration, but given the nature of Trump it could be plausible.

When in US history has a President actually been a traitor?

2017-2021

 

[crazyfingers]

In the four years since the last time Trump was president, a lot of new classified documents would have been created, so lots more for him to steal, and probably hand copies of to his pal Putin. There would also be older documents he missed the first time around, and no doubt Putin and others have made request lists for documents that they want. Now this may be exaggeration, but given the nature of Trump it could be plausible.

When in US history has a President actually been a traitor?

2017-2021

Likely also 2024...

 

[Elixir]

Likely also 2024...

Joe may be sleepy but he isn't a traitor and never harbored ambitions of destroying American democracy.

 

[crazyfingers]

Likely also 2024...

Joe may be sleepy but he isn't a traitor and never harbored ambitions of destroying American democracy.

Yes. I was mistakenly going by when Trump got elected.

 

[laughing dog]

Whoops - wrong thread..

 

[ideologyhunter]

The Asshole, today:
"He who saves his Country does not violate any Law."
...Just in case we needed any reminder that he sees himself as utterly above the law and above any scrutiny from courts, legislatures, what have you.
It comes from the same kind of brain that Nixon displayed when he said, "When the President does it, it's not illegal."
This is what we will face every minute/hour/day that #47 is our commander in chief. Bizarro America is here.

 

[Elixir]

Just like Hitler, he makes up an enemy that only he can save us from. Can’t even come up with an original script.
What a fucktsrd.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Hope you weren’t planning a vacation in Yosemite NP this year:

https://www.sfgate.com/california-parks/article/yosemite-national-park-in-chaos-20163260.php

I’m sure other national parks will have issues what with the decimation of the NPS federal workforce. MAGA!!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

https://www.crisisgroup.org/africa/southern-africa/south-africa/land-reform-south-africa-fact-and-fiction

A lot of good information in the article.

Apologists:

According to South Africa’s ruling African National Congress (ANC), the proposed amendment would introduce greater clarity to existing expropriation provisions, though it would remove the stipulation “subject to compensation”.

In other words, they're going to steal it.

Should steal be in quotes seeing how it was stolen from the blacks in the early part of the 20th century?

I get this is a very complicated situation. People that own the land now are not directly the people that inherited it from the Government when it was taken in 1913 as part of the Native Land Act. Whites still currently own 75% or so of the land, despite being less than 10% of the population. This is going to lead to problems. It needs to be managed in a viable manner, and property transitions even when funded will lead to problems. You can't just switch hands. It is too complicated, both from right of ownership (even thanks to dubious segregation policies) and competent stewardship of the land.

The property owners have got to understand that there are people that need access to some of the resources they have. Herding, farming, etc...ing, this is a team game. All sides need to be at the table. The many out there aren't looking to get rich, they are looking to barely get by. There will always be those that was to get an unfair cut from all of this and hand land over to buddies like Zimbabwe, and that must be guarded against as well.

And I sure the heck wouldn't listen to whatever Trump says about it. He probably doesn't even know that South Africa refers to a specific country, instead of just being the south part of Africa.

No, this is a very simple situation. They're stealing the land. This isn't about fairness, it's about theft. Exactly like Zimbabwe. Just because it's being done by someone who isn't white doesn't make it not evil. If it was not evil they would be paying fair compensation.

 

[Politesse]

"We want to be allies*, so you get to keep part of your land as long as we get rights to all the gold/coal/uranium/oil" has been a standard leading "treaty" offer for most of US history, and it was a tactic that Trump's idol Andrew Jackson knew well and used often in his pre-presidency years. Not surprised that we're handing the same old bullshit line to Ukraine.

 

[Politesse]

Hope you weren’t planning a vacation in Yosemite NP this year:

https://www.sfgate.com/california-parks/article/yosemite-national-park-in-chaos-20163260.php

I’m sure other national parks will have issues what with the decimation of the NPS federal workforce. MAGA!!

I'm decimated by the cuts at the historical parks, which have been hit especially hard by the mass firing episode. At Yosemite they'll be able to put out the fires, corral the bears, and clean up the flood plains eventually. But once a protected archaeological site has been dozed and looted, it's gone; that information has simply been lost to humanity and cannot be gotten back. I know a handful of places, which for what I hope are obvious reasons I will decline to name, that now lack a full time ranger to oversee their care, and will only have temps from now on even if they find enough rangers to cover them.

Not to mention the dozens of Very Good People I know who just got fired or "retired" under pressure.

 

[Elixir]

 

[Loren Pechtel]

https://www.crisisgroup.org/africa/southern-africa/south-africa/land-reform-south-africa-fact-and-fiction

A lot of good information in the article.

Apologists:

According to South Africa’s ruling African National Congress (ANC), the proposed amendment would introduce greater clarity to existing expropriation provisions, though it would remove the stipulation “subject to compensation”.

In other words, they're going to steal it.

So if a thief steals a valuable piece of jewelry from your grandmother, does the thief's grandson get to keep it even though it's known it belonged to your grandmother?

Basically every bit of land has been stolen from it's original owners, generally many times. Specific objects from specific people, ok, return is generally appropriate. General objects from populations--no. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Politesse]

https://www.crisisgroup.org/africa/southern-africa/south-africa/land-reform-south-africa-fact-and-fiction

A lot of good information in the article.

Apologists:

According to South Africa’s ruling African National Congress (ANC), the proposed amendment would introduce greater clarity to existing expropriation provisions, though it would remove the stipulation “subject to compensation”.

In other words, they're going to steal it.

So if a thief steals a valuable piece of jewelry from your grandmother, does the thief's grandson get to keep it even though it's known it belonged to your grandmother?

Basically every bit of land has been stolen from it's original owners, generally many times. Specific objects from specific people, ok, return is generally appropriate. General objects from populations--no. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Most of the land on question has a clear paper trail, so why shouldn't the government recover it? Returning stolen property is not a second wrong, it's the righting of a wrong.

Your ethics are basically saying that redress for a theft should be impossible as long if the thief fenced or laundered the stuff they stole quickly enough, that they are no longer owned by the original thief. But that's not how the law works. If you know the Rolex is a fenced good, you're also on the hook for buying it, and the grandson of a thief should similarly be the hook for the stolen goods he inherits. On what basis does a current owner of a farm on stolen land have rights to it? They didn't pay for it, it wasn't granted to them, they didn't work for it. They just inherited a criminal enterprise, which is not a kind of type of "right" that a nation is morally obliged to honor.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

https://www.crisisgroup.org/africa/southern-africa/south-africa/land-reform-south-africa-fact-and-fiction

A lot of good information in the article.

Apologists:

According to South Africa’s ruling African National Congress (ANC), the proposed amendment would introduce greater clarity to existing expropriation provisions, though it would remove the stipulation “subject to compensation”.

In other words, they're going to steal it.

Should steal be in quotes seeing how it was stolen from the blacks in the early part of the 20th century?

I get this is a very complicated situation. People that own the land now are not directly the people that inherited it from the Government when it was taken in 1913 as part of the Native Land Act. Whites still currently own 75% or so of the land, despite being less than 10% of the population. This is going to lead to problems. It needs to be managed in a viable manner, and property transitions even when funded will lead to problems. You can't just switch hands. It is too complicated, both from right of ownership (even thanks to dubious segregation policies) and competent stewardship of the land.

The property owners have got to understand that there are people that need access to some of the resources they have. Herding, farming, etc...ing, this is a team game. All sides need to be at the table. The many out there aren't looking to get rich, they are looking to barely get by. There will always be those that was to get an unfair cut from all of this and hand land over to buddies like Zimbabwe, and that must be guarded against as well.

And I sure the heck wouldn't listen to whatever Trump says about it. He probably doesn't even know that South Africa refers to a specific country, instead of just being the south part of Africa.

No, this is a very simple situation. They're stealing the land. This isn't about fairness, it's about theft. Exactly like Zimbabwe. Just because it's being done by someone who isn't white doesn't make it not evil. If it was not evil they would be paying fair compensation.

You are right, this is a simple situation of poor people desperate for access to land to be able to herd their livestock and barely make ends meet.

Your utter disregard for their needs and the gross disparity in who owns the land and how best to manage this inequity that will otherwise lead to violence is duly noted.