Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[DrZoidberg]

I understand that Israelis are terrified by Hamas’ expressed intent to wipe them out. We have long since seen that no such capability exists. But the excuse for continued genocide continues.

In 1933 (and earlier and beyond) the Nazis expressed their intent about the Jews. They did not have the capability then but a decade later we are well aware what happened.
Just because Hamas cannot do it now is not evidence that they will never achieve it.

They're certainly doing their best, (to do what they have promised to do). Using the limited means at their disposal

There's really no mastery what Hamas wants to do to Jews. In 1933 we didn’t know what the Nazis wanted. Nor did they know. That wasn't hammered out until the Wansee conference

 

[Arctish]

Interesting article from The Forward, a left-of-center Jewish American news outlet:

It’s our Jewish responsibility to see the full picture when it comes to Israel. We’re failing.

And here's another one:

Why does Trump’s Gaza plan sound so familiar? Because the Nazis tried it first.

 

[Elixir]

Using the limited means at their disposal

Compared to the German war machine of the late 30s/early 40s, that’s not much.

 

[Tigers!]

Ultimately the fight is over wealth and power: the wealth that comes from control of the best agricultural land, aquifers, mineral deposits, and the ability to transport goods to markets, and the power that comes from military might and allies. Racism and religious bigotry plays a central role, but IMO if the Zionists had settled in less valuable, less inhabited lands, there would be less fighting over it.I am gald you note that there would be fighting no matter when the Jews where and or how there were. Their presence there is the issue for many.

I am glad that you acknowledged that there would be fighting no matter where the Jews reside or in what numbers. It is their existence that offends so many people, not exactly where they may be, or in what numbers.

 

[Arctish]

Ultimately the fight is over wealth and power: the wealth that comes from control of the best agricultural land, aquifers, mineral deposits, and the ability to transport goods to markets, and the power that comes from military might and allies. Racism and religious bigotry plays a central role, but IMO if the Zionists had settled in less valuable, less inhabited lands, there would be less fighting over it.I am gald you note that there would be fighting no matter when the Jews where and or how there were. Their presence there is the issue for many.

I am glad that you acknowledged that there would be fighting no matter where the Jews reside or in what numbers. It is their existence that offends so many people, not exactly where they may be, or in what numbers.

Jews were living peacefully in Palestine among their Christian, Muslim, and other religious neighbors for centuries.

Yes, there were bigots and religious nutjobs living there as well. I'm sure you can find the occasional offensive screed by a priest or imam if you go looking for one, but I'm equally sure you won't find the kind of hostility you're saying Jews invariably experience. I have on several occasions invited posters to find instances of religious oppression (other than a two tiered tax system, which kinda sucks but isn't oppression and certainly wasn't imposed solely on Jews) when the Ottomans were in charge. So far, there hasn't been anything posted about that, not even from the guy who claims Jews were enslaved in Palestine until they rebelled in the 1930s.

The fighting was inspired by major social upheaval when the Ottoman Empire collapsed, the British changed the political power system in ways that favored their empire and thwarted the ambitions of the local populace, the Great Depression left millions of people desperately poor and scrambling for work, and there was a sudden influx of hundreds of thousands of European Jews determined to create a State for Jews alone by taking land and resources from the indigenous population and driving them out, and the wealthiest, most powerful nations on Earth supported a division of Palestine that gave more than half of the land on the western side of the Jordan River to less than 1/3 of the people living there, most of whom were recent arrivals from Europe.

That kind of social reordering and loss of wealth and security was guaranteed to cause demonstrations and rioting, and the lack of justice and fairness to fuel resentment. The violence and ethnic cleansing when Israel was founded was nothing short of open warfare and a catastrophe for the locals. The fact it was being done by recent immigrants and foreigners made it especially infuriating.

I think if armed Mormons had moved in done the exact same things the armed Zionists did, declared the place was now called New Deseret and that only Mormons could be citizens and everyone else had to leave, the resulting fighting would have been the same.

The experiences of Jews in Europe were the driving force behind the aggressive Zionist colonialism of the Fifth Aliyah and onward. The experience of Jews in Palestine was very different, which I believe is why the leaders of the Jewish Agency for Palestine weren't Palestinian Jews.

 

[Arctish]

The original article was published by Haaretz. It can be read here on MSN without logging in:

Legendary cartoonists Art Spiegelman and Joe Sacco – one created 'Maus,' the other 'Palestine' – have come out with a short comic on Israel's war in Gaza

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Hamas took a woman and her two very young children into captivity, all alive. The two children's bodies were returned, not alive. Allegedly brutally killed. The third body of the mother was "returned", but according to the Israelis, it isn't the body of the mother. The father was released recently himself, and I can only imagine the absolute hell this is causing. Having lost them all is beyond tragedy. To have deception or perhaps maybe just incompetence, or deception because of incompetence lead to the mother not being returned... There are no words for that.

Hamas is slow rolling this release, because there will be no mercy from Mossad. And unlike the IDF attacks, it'll be calculated, targeted, and very little collateral damage.

 

[TomC]

Hamas took a woman and her two very young children into captivity, all alive. The two children's bodies were returned, not alive. Allegedly brutally killed. The third body of the mother was "returned", but according to the Israelis, it isn't the body of the mother. The father was released recently himself, and I can only imagine the absolute hell this is causing. Having lost them all is beyond tragedy. To have deception or perhaps maybe just incompetence, or deception because of incompetence lead to the mother not being returned... There are no words for that.

Hamas is slow rolling this release, because there will be no mercy from Mossad. And unlike the IDF attacks, it'll be calculated, targeted, and very little collateral damage.

I still think Israel should give The Gazans Who Matter two days to release all the Israeli kidnapping victims or shut off the water and electricity. It would be the peaceful solution.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Hamas took a woman and her two very young children into captivity, all alive. The two children's bodies were returned, not alive. Allegedly brutally killed. The third body of the mother was "returned", but according to the Israelis, it isn't the body of the mother. The father was released recently himself, and I can only imagine the absolute hell this is causing. Having lost them all is beyond tragedy. To have deception or perhaps maybe just incompetence, or deception because of incompetence lead to the mother not being returned... There are no words for that.

Hamas is slow rolling this release, because there will be no mercy from Mossad. And unlike the IDF attacks, it'll be calculated, targeted, and very little collateral damage.

I still think Israel should give The Gazans Who Matter two days to release all the Israeli kidnapping victims or shut off the water and electricity. It would be the peaceful solution.
Tom

That's wonderful. It continues the stubborn insistence you keep showing that Hamas doesn't have absurd amounts of leverage. In fact, doing as you suggest most likely would result in Hamas stopping all together. So what exactly do the hostages and their families get out of it?

 

[Arctish]

Hamas took a woman and her two very young children into captivity, all alive. The two children's bodies were returned, not alive. Allegedly brutally killed. The third body of the mother was "returned", but according to the Israelis, it isn't the body of the mother. The father was released recently himself, and I can only imagine the absolute hell this is causing. Having lost them all is beyond tragedy.

All of this is true. Kidnapping and imprisoning civilians is a moral outrage. Doing it to children is beyond outrageous.

To have deception or perhaps maybe just incompetence, or deception because of incompetence lead to the mother not being returned... There are no words for that.

Hamas claims the mother and her children were killed in an Israeli airstrike along with Palestinian civilians, which was always a fear when Israel was bombing everything in Gaza to rubble.

It doesn't have to be incompetence or deliberate deception that led to the body of Shiri Bibas not being returned. It could be a matter of one bombing victim looking much like all the others.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Hamas took a woman and her two very young children into captivity, all alive. The two children's bodies were returned, not alive. Allegedly brutally killed. The third body of the mother was "returned", but according to the Israelis, it isn't the body of the mother. The father was released recently himself, and I can only imagine the absolute hell this is causing. Having lost them all is beyond tragedy.

All of this is true. Kidnapping and imprisoning civilians is a moral outrage. Doing it to children is beyond outrageous.

To have deception or perhaps maybe just incompetence, or deception because of incompetence lead to the mother not being returned... There are no words for that.

Hamas claims the mother and her children were killed in an Israeli airstrike along with Palestinian civilians, which was always a fear when Israel was bombing everything in Gaza to rubble.

It doesn't have to be incompetence or deliberate deception that led to the body of Shiri Bibas not being returned. It could be a matter of one bombing victim looking much like all the others.

Except, they gave the wrong body. I'm willing to believe that it is possible the children died as a result of damage from an Israeli bombing. I'm not that high on just taking Hama's word for it though.

 

[Arctish]

Hamas took a woman and her two very young children into captivity, all alive. The two children's bodies were returned, not alive. Allegedly brutally killed. The third body of the mother was "returned", but according to the Israelis, it isn't the body of the mother. The father was released recently himself, and I can only imagine the absolute hell this is causing. Having lost them all is beyond tragedy.

All of this is true. Kidnapping and imprisoning civilians is a moral outrage. Doing it to children is beyond outrageous.

To have deception or perhaps maybe just incompetence, or deception because of incompetence lead to the mother not being returned... There are no words for that.

Hamas claims the mother and her children were killed in an Israeli airstrike along with Palestinian civilians, which was always a fear when Israel was bombing everything in Gaza to rubble.

It doesn't have to be incompetence or deliberate deception that led to the body of Shiri Bibas not being returned. It could be a matter of one bombing victim looking much like all the others.

Except, they gave the wrong body. I'm willing to believe that it is possible the children died as a result of damage from an Israeli bombing. I'm not that high on just taking Hama's word for it though.

If the mother and her children were being kept away from others, then yeah, sending the body of a woman who was not Shiri Bibas to her family in Israel was a cruel deception.

If they were being held in a building with other women and children nearby, then it could easily be a case of mistaken identification.

Are you so sure that Gazan women, most of them mothers themselves, would have been unwilling to help an Israeli mother care for a 4 year old and a baby? That none of them would have been found close enough to the Bibas children's bodies that they might have been mistaken for their mother?

 

[laughing dog]

Hamas took a woman and her two very young children into captivity, all alive. The two children's bodies were returned, not alive. Allegedly brutally killed. The third body of the mother was "returned", but according to the Israelis, it isn't the body of the mother. The father was released recently himself, and I can only imagine the absolute hell this is causing. Having lost them all is beyond tragedy. To have deception or perhaps maybe just incompetence, or deception because of incompetence lead to the mother not being returned... There are no words for that.

Hamas is slow rolling this release, because there will be no mercy from Mossad. And unlike the IDF attacks, it'll be calculated, targeted, and very little collateral damage.

I still think Israel should give The Gazans Who Matter two days to release all the Israeli kidnapping victims or shut off the water and electricity. It would be the peaceful solution.
Tom

There are no words for that.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Here's a good one

 

[Tigers!]

Hamas claims the mother and her children were killed in an Israeli airstrike along with Palestinian civilians, which was always a fear when Israel was bombing everything in Gaza to rubble.

It doesn't have to be incompetence or deliberate deception that led to the body of Shiri Bibas not being returned. It could be a matter of one bombing victim looking much like all the others.

And why was Shiri Bibas in Gaza anyway?

 

[Arctish]

Hamas claims the mother and her children were killed in an Israeli airstrike along with Palestinian civilians, which was always a fear when Israel was bombing everything in Gaza to rubble.

It doesn't have to be incompetence or deliberate deception that led to the body of Shiri Bibas not being returned. It could be a matter of one bombing victim looking much like all the others.

And why was Shiri Bibas in Gaza anyway?

Are you trying to drag the conversation back to the beginning? Again?

You know why, I know why, everyone participating in this thread knows why.

That doesn't mean the wrong body being sent to Israel was deliberate deception or incompetence.

 

[Tigers!]

Hamas claims the mother and her children were killed in an Israeli airstrike along with Palestinian civilians, which was always a fear when Israel was bombing everything in Gaza to rubble.

It doesn't have to be incompetence or deliberate deception that led to the body of Shiri Bibas not being returned. It could be a matter of one bombing victim looking much like all the others.

And why was Shiri Bibas in Gaza anyway?

Are you trying to drag the conversation back to the beginning? Again?

Just remembering why we are where we are right now.

You know why, I know why, everyone participating in this thread knows why.

That doesn't mean the wrong body being sent to Israel was deliberate deception or incompetence.

There are only 2 reasons why the wrong body was given back - deception or incompetence. Take you pick.
I'll select deception.

 

[Arctish]

Hamas claims the mother and her children were killed in an Israeli airstrike along with Palestinian civilians, which was always a fear when Israel was bombing everything in Gaza to rubble.

It doesn't have to be incompetence or deliberate deception that led to the body of Shiri Bibas not being returned. It could be a matter of one bombing victim looking much like all the others.

And why was Shiri Bibas in Gaza anyway?

Are you trying to drag the conversation back to the beginning? Again?

Just remembering why we are where we are right now.

You know why, I know why, everyone participating in this thread knows why.

That doesn't mean the wrong body being sent to Israel was deliberate deception or incompetence.

There are only 2 reasons why the wrong body was given back - deception or incompetence. Take you pick.
I'll select deception.

I'll pick very damaged bodies of people killed in an explosion and building collapse + no telling how long the bodies were in the rubble before being dug out + overwhelmed morgue facilities + a shortage of DNA testing kits + chaotic conditions in a war zone = heightened possibility of mistaken identity and/or inaccurate or lost records of the location of the grave(s) in which the bodies had been buried as the most likely reason.

You can assume Hamas wanted to be bombed some more if that's where your thoughts take you.

 

[Tigers!]

Hamas claims the mother and her children were killed in an Israeli airstrike along with Palestinian civilians, which was always a fear when Israel was bombing everything in Gaza to rubble.

It doesn't have to be incompetence or deliberate deception that led to the body of Shiri Bibas not being returned. It could be a matter of one bombing victim looking much like all the others.

And why was Shiri Bibas in Gaza anyway?

Are you trying to drag the conversation back to the beginning? Again?

Just remembering why we are where we are right now.

You know why, I know why, everyone participating in this thread knows why.

That doesn't mean the wrong body being sent to Israel was deliberate deception or incompetence.

There are only 2 reasons why the wrong body was given back - deception or incompetence. Take you pick.
I'll select deception.

I'll pick very damaged bodies of people killed in an explosion and building collapse + no telling how long the bodies were in the rubble before being dug out + overwhelmed morgue facilities + a shortage of DNA testing kits + chaotic conditions in a war zone = heightened possibility of mistaken identity and/or inaccurate or lost records of the location of the grave(s) in which the bodies had been buried as the most likely reason.

That's an awful lot of words to desribe incompetence or perhaps we should call it malice (on the part of Hamas, not your good self).

I will note that Hamas has been amazing precise in telling us how many people it accuses Israel of killing or how many people of have being displaced. Yet you claim they may have lost the location of one of their bargining chips? Seems rather implausible.

 

[Tigers!]

Hamas claims the mother and her children were killed in an Israeli airstrike along with Palestinian civilians, which was always a fear when Israel was bombing everything in Gaza to rubble.

It doesn't have to be incompetence or deliberate deception that led to the body of Shiri Bibas not being returned. It could be a matter of one bombing victim looking much like all the others.

And why was Shiri Bibas in Gaza anyway?

Are you trying to drag the conversation back to the beginning? Again?

Just remembering why we are where we are right now.

You know why, I know why, everyone participating in this thread knows why.

That doesn't mean the wrong body being sent to Israel was deliberate deception or incompetence.

There are only 2 reasons why the wrong body was given back - deception or incompetence. Take you pick.
I'll select deception.

I'll pick very damaged bodies of people killed in an explosion and building collapse + no telling how long the bodies were in the rubble before being dug out + overwhelmed morgue facilities + a shortage of DNA testing kits + chaotic conditions in a war zone = heightened possibility of mistaken identity and/or inaccurate or lost records of the location of the grave(s) in which the bodies had been buried as the most likely reason.

That's an awful lot of words to describe incompetence or perhaps we should call it malice (on the part of Hamas, not your good self).

I will note that Hamas has been amazing precise in telling us how many people it accuses Israel of killing or how many people of have being displaced. Yet you claim they may have lost the location of one of their bargining chips? Seems rather implausible.