Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Since I am not on the ground there with detection capabilities, I am very open-minded about what happened. It's possible even that the whole premise--that it is the wrong person--is mistaken, from my perspective of not being able to detect anything. Israel could have mistakenly swapped the lab result or she could have been adopted secretly or whatever if comparing DNA to biological family. Of course, I think that is unlikely. That Hamas would do this intentionally is also a possibility, but I also think that is unlikely. They would know that Israel is doing DNA testing to confirm identities. So, any trickery would be met with consequences. So, basically, without knowing things from the ground there are a wide range of possibilities with a mistake, at least seeming more likely. If Israel publicizes the identity of the remains that could help to narrow down the cause of the wrong person. For example, is it a neighbor, relative, nanny to the Bibas children? Or is it not even a hostage, but a Palestinian or other person? We need more information.

 

[Arctish]

Hamas claims the mother and her children were killed in an Israeli airstrike along with Palestinian civilians, which was always a fear when Israel was bombing everything in Gaza to rubble.

It doesn't have to be incompetence or deliberate deception that led to the body of Shiri Bibas not being returned. It could be a matter of one bombing victim looking much like all the others.

And why was Shiri Bibas in Gaza anyway?

Are you trying to drag the conversation back to the beginning? Again?

Just remembering why we are where we are right now.

You know why, I know why, everyone participating in this thread knows why.

That doesn't mean the wrong body being sent to Israel was deliberate deception or incompetence.

There are only 2 reasons why the wrong body was given back - deception or incompetence. Take you pick.
I'll select deception.

I'll pick very damaged bodies of people killed in an explosion and building collapse + no telling how long the bodies were in the rubble before being dug out + overwhelmed morgue facilities + a shortage of DNA testing kits + chaotic conditions in a war zone = heightened possibility of mistaken identity and/or inaccurate or lost records of the location of the grave(s) in which the bodies had been buried as the most likely reason.

That's an awful lot of words to desribe incompetence or perhaps we should call it malice (on the part of Hamas, not your good self).

I will note that Hamas has been amazing precise in telling us how many people it accuses Israel of killing or how many people of have being displaced. Yet you claim they may have lost the location of one of their bargining chips? Seems rather implausible.

And I will note that even the US military, with abundant training and resources, occasionally misidentifies the bodies of fallen soldiers or buries them in the wrong graves at Arlington National Cemetary. I don't expect Hamas to do better. In fact, I expect Hamas to be worse at keeping track of where all the bodies are buried.

 

[ZiprHead]

Hamas took a woman and her two very young children into captivity, all alive. The two children's bodies were returned, not alive. Allegedly brutally killed. The third body of the mother was "returned", but according to the Israelis, it isn't the body of the mother. The father was released recently himself, and I can only imagine the absolute hell this is causing. Having lost them all is beyond tragedy. To have deception or perhaps maybe just incompetence, or deception because of incompetence lead to the mother not being returned... There are no words for that.

Hamas is slow rolling this release, because there will be no mercy from Mossad. And unlike the IDF attacks, it'll be calculated, targeted, and very little collateral damage.

I still think Israel should give The Gazans Who Matter two days to release all the Israeli kidnapping victims or shut off the water and electricity. It would be the peaceful solution.
Tom

This is exactly one of the reasons Hamas attacks. That Israel controls the water and electricity of Gaza and uses that control as a weapon.

 

[laughing dog]

Hamas claims the mother and her children were killed in an Israeli airstrike along with Palestinian civilians, which was always a fear when Israel was bombing everything in Gaza to rubble.

It doesn't have to be incompetence or deliberate deception that led to the body of Shiri Bibas not being returned. It could be a matter of one bombing victim looking much like all the others.

And why was Shiri Bibas in Gaza anyway?

Are you trying to drag the conversation back to the beginning? Again?

Just remembering why we are where we are right now.

You know why, I know why, everyone participating in this thread knows why.

That doesn't mean the wrong body being sent to Israel was deliberate deception or incompetence.

There are only 2 reasons why the wrong body was given back - deception or incompetence. Take you pick.
I'll select deception.

I'll pick very damaged bodies of people killed in an explosion and building collapse + no telling how long the bodies were in the rubble before being dug out + overwhelmed morgue facilities + a shortage of DNA testing kits + chaotic conditions in a war zone = heightened possibility of mistaken identity and/or inaccurate or lost records of the location of the grave(s) in which the bodies had been buried as the most likely reason.

That's an awful lot of words to describe incompetence or perhaps we should call it malice (on the part of Hamas, not your good self).

I will note that Hamas has been amazing precise in telling us how many people it accuses Israel of killing or how many people of have being displaced. Yet you claim they may have lost the location of one of their bargining chips? Seems rather implausible.

Counting bodies is a radically different exercise than identifying bodies that gave been mangled, blown into pieces, or burned beyond simple recognition.

Seems rather implausible that Hamas would deliberately chance re-ignite the devastating attack on Gaza by misidentifying a hostage’s body, but anything is possible.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Hamas claims the mother and her children were killed in an Israeli airstrike along with Palestinian civilians, which was always a fear when Israel was bombing everything in Gaza to rubble.

It doesn't have to be incompetence or deliberate deception that led to the body of Shiri Bibas not being returned. It could be a matter of one bombing victim looking much like all the others.

And why was Shiri Bibas in Gaza anyway?

Are you trying to drag the conversation back to the beginning? Again?

Just remembering why we are where we are right now.

You know why, I know why, everyone participating in this thread knows why.

That doesn't mean the wrong body being sent to Israel was deliberate deception or incompetence.

There are only 2 reasons why the wrong body was given back - deception or incompetence. Take you pick.
I'll select deception.

I'll pick very damaged bodies of people killed in an explosion and building collapse + no telling how long the bodies were in the rubble before being dug out + overwhelmed morgue facilities + a shortage of DNA testing kits + chaotic conditions in a war zone = heightened possibility of mistaken identity and/or inaccurate or lost records of the location of the grave(s) in which the bodies had been buried as the most likely reason.

That's an awful lot of words to describe incompetence or perhaps we should call it malice (on the part of Hamas, not your good self).

I will note that Hamas has been amazing precise in telling us how many people it accuses Israel of killing or how many people of have being displaced. Yet you claim they may have lost the location of one of their bargining chips? Seems rather implausible.

Counting bodies is a radically different exercise than identifying bodies that gave been mangled, blown into pieces, or burned beyond simple recognition.

Seems rather implausible that Hamas would deliberately chance re-ignite the devastating attack on Gaza by misidentifying a hostage’s body, but anything is possible.

Ehe... Hamas has obviously just been making up numbers all the time. They're an islamofascist regime. Ie, preposterously corrupt and inefficient, at the best of times.

Like all fascists ever, they're a dysfunctional mess that rarely get anything right.

 

[Tigers!]

Hamas claims the mother and her children were killed in an Israeli airstrike along with Palestinian civilians, which was always a fear when Israel was bombing everything in Gaza to rubble.

It doesn't have to be incompetence or deliberate deception that led to the body of Shiri Bibas not being returned. It could be a matter of one bombing victim looking much like all the others.

And why was Shiri Bibas in Gaza anyway?

Are you trying to drag the conversation back to the beginning? Again?

Just remembering why we are where we are right now.

You know why, I know why, everyone participating in this thread knows why.

That doesn't mean the wrong body being sent to Israel was deliberate deception or incompetence.

There are only 2 reasons why the wrong body was given back - deception or incompetence. Take you pick.
I'll select deception.

I'll pick very damaged bodies of people killed in an explosion and building collapse + no telling how long the bodies were in the rubble before being dug out + overwhelmed morgue facilities + a shortage of DNA testing kits + chaotic conditions in a war zone = heightened possibility of mistaken identity and/or inaccurate or lost records of the location of the grave(s) in which the bodies had been buried as the most likely reason.

That's an awful lot of words to describe incompetence or perhaps we should call it malice (on the part of Hamas, not your good self).

I will note that Hamas has been amazing precise in telling us how many people it accuses Israel of killing or how many people of have being displaced. Yet you claim they may have lost the location of one of their bargining chips? Seems rather implausible.

Counting bodies is a radically different exercise than identifying bodies that gave been mangled, blown into pieces, or burned beyond simple recognition.

Seems rather implausible that Hamas would deliberately chance re-ignite the devastating attack on Gaza by misidentifying a hostage’s body, but anything is possible.

Hamas has shown no compunction in the past about poking Israel. that will not have changed.

 

[Tigers!]

Since I am not on the ground there with detection capabilities, I am very open-minded about what happened. It's possible even that the whole premise--that it is the wrong person--is mistaken, from my perspective of not being able to detect anything. Israel could have mistakenly swapped the lab result or she could have been adopted secretly or whatever if comparing DNA to biological family. Of course, I think that is unlikely. That Hamas would do this intentionally is also a possibility, but I also think that is unlikely. They would know that Israel is doing DNA testing to confirm identities. So, any trickery would be met with consequences. So, basically, without knowing things from the ground there are a wide range of possibilities with a mistake, at least seeming more likely. If Israel publicizes the identity of the remains that could help to narrow down the cause of the wrong person. For example, is it a neighbor, relative, nanny to the Bibas children? Or is it not even a hostage, but a Palestinian or other person? We need more information.

yes we do

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Israel forensics chief says 'no evidence' Shiri Bibas was killed by bombing

Hamas has previously claimed that the mother and her two sons were killed in an Israeli airstrike.

www.bbc.com

The remains of Ariel, Kfir and another hostage, Oded Lifschitz, were handed over by Hamas on Thursday - alongside a fourth body which it said was that of Shiri Bibas. Israel's forensic testing then showed that these remains were in fact of a different unidentified woman.

Hamas spokesman Ismail al-Thawabta said in a post on X on Friday that Shiri's remains seemed to have been mixed up with other bodies under rubble after the air strike.

Hamas released the correct remains on Friday evening.

 

[TomC]

Hamas took a woman and her two very young children into captivity, all alive. The two children's bodies were returned, not alive. Allegedly brutally killed. The third body of the mother was "returned", but according to the Israelis, it isn't the body of the mother. The father was released recently himself, and I can only imagine the absolute hell this is causing. Having lost them all is beyond tragedy. To have deception or perhaps maybe just incompetence, or deception because of incompetence lead to the mother not being returned... There are no words for that.

Hamas is slow rolling this release, because there will be no mercy from Mossad. And unlike the IDF attacks, it'll be calculated, targeted, and very little collateral damage.

I still think Israel should give The Gazans Who Matter two days to release all the Israeli kidnapping victims or shut off the water and electricity. It would be the peaceful solution.
Tom

There are no words for that.

Probably no words because there's no way to blame Israel for the problems. It's a peaceful choice by Israel and the Gazans will suffer only if the GWM decide against ending the kidnapping.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Hamas took a woman and her two very young children into captivity, all alive. The two children's bodies were returned, not alive. Allegedly brutally killed. The third body of the mother was "returned", but according to the Israelis, it isn't the body of the mother. The father was released recently himself, and I can only imagine the absolute hell this is causing. Having lost them all is beyond tragedy. To have deception or perhaps maybe just incompetence, or deception because of incompetence lead to the mother not being returned... There are no words for that.

Hamas is slow rolling this release, because there will be no mercy from Mossad. And unlike the IDF attacks, it'll be calculated, targeted, and very little collateral damage.

I still think Israel should give The Gazans Who Matter two days to release all the Israeli kidnapping victims or shut off the water and electricity. It would be the peaceful solution.
Tom

There are no words for that.

Probably no words because there's no way to blame Israel for the problems. It's a peaceful choice by Israel and the Gazans will suffer only if the GWM decide against ending the kidnapping.
Tom

I suppose if one believes in collective punishment for the choices of others, there are plenty of words for that sociopathic policy proposal.

 

[TomC]

Hamas took a woman and her two very young children into captivity, all alive. The two children's bodies were returned, not alive. Allegedly brutally killed. The third body of the mother was "returned", but according to the Israelis, it isn't the body of the mother. The father was released recently himself, and I can only imagine the absolute hell this is causing. Having lost them all is beyond tragedy. To have deception or perhaps maybe just incompetence, or deception because of incompetence lead to the mother not being returned... There are no words for that.

Hamas is slow rolling this release, because there will be no mercy from Mossad. And unlike the IDF attacks, it'll be calculated, targeted, and very little collateral damage.

I still think Israel should give The Gazans Who Matter two days to release all the Israeli kidnapping victims or shut off the water and electricity. It would be the peaceful solution.
Tom

There are no words for that.

Probably no words because there's no way to blame Israel for the problems. It's a peaceful choice by Israel and the Gazans will suffer only if the GWM decide against ending the kidnapping.
Tom

I suppose if one believes in collective punishment for the choices of others, there are plenty of words for that sociopathic policy proposal.

I suppose if one believes in culpability they could recognize that GWM are the biggest problem here.
As long as you believe that it's all the fault of Zionist refugees for daring to live, of course Islamic terrorists are not the problem.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Hamas took a woman and her two very young children into captivity, all alive. The two children's bodies were returned, not alive. Allegedly brutally killed. The third body of the mother was "returned", but according to the Israelis, it isn't the body of the mother. The father was released recently himself, and I can only imagine the absolute hell this is causing. Having lost them all is beyond tragedy. To have deception or perhaps maybe just incompetence, or deception because of incompetence lead to the mother not being returned... There are no words for that.

Hamas is slow rolling this release, because there will be no mercy from Mossad. And unlike the IDF attacks, it'll be calculated, targeted, and very little collateral damage.

I still think Israel should give The Gazans Who Matter two days to release all the Israeli kidnapping victims or shut off the water and electricity. It would be the peaceful solution.
Tom

There are no words for that.

Probably no words because there's no way to blame Israel for the problems. It's a peaceful choice by Israel and the Gazans will suffer only if the GWM decide against ending the kidnapping.
Tom

I suppose if one believes in collective punishment for the choices of others, there are plenty of words for that sociopathic policy proposal.

I suppose if one believes in culpability they could recognize that GWM are the biggest problem here.

Of course they are. How that justifies denying water to children is much different issue.

As long as you believe that it's all the fault of Zionist refugees for daring to live, of course Islamic terrorists are not the problem.
Tom

Pulling that straw man out of your ass must have really hurt.

 

[TomC]

Of course they are. How that justifies denying water to children is much different issue.

Why would Gazans do that to their own children?

I've got an answer.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Of course they are. How that justifies denying water to children is much different issue.

Why would Gazans do that to their own children?

I've got an answer.
Tom

I see the pain of your straw man caused you to completely avoid answering my question. I am sure you have an answer to your question. But how about answering my question? Recall that answering a question is different than responding to a question. A response need not address the content of a question - your response above is an example of that.

My question how is recognizing the GWM is the biggest problem here justifies withholding water from children in Gaza. Please be as specific as possible and recall that the GWM is not equivalent to non-combatant Gazans.

 

[TomC]

My question how is recognizing the GWM is the biggest problem here justifies withholding water from children in Gaza.

How about this.

Gazans release the kidnapping victims and Israel doesn't shut off the water and electricity.
If Gazans insist on something else, that's a choice that they are making for themselves. If only by supporting the GWM.

Ya know, the Gazans who decided to invest in a bunch of missiles and weapons and military fortresses in and under civilian infrastructure, like hospitals and apartment buildings and worship houses. Then launched the Oct '23 attack on Israel. Instead of infrastructure like water and power, stuff that would improve the lives of the Gazans Who Don't matter.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

My question how is recognizing the GWM is the biggest problem here justifies withholding water from children in Gaza.

How about this.

Gazans release the kidnapping victims and Israel doesn't shut off the water and electricity.
If Gazans insist on something else, that's a choice that they are making for themselves. If only by supporting the GWM.

Ya know, the Gazans who decided to invest in a bunch of missiles and weapons and military fortresses in and under civilian infrastructure, like hospitals and apartment buildings and worship houses. Then launched the Oct '23 attack on Israel. Instead of infrastructure like water and power, stuff that would improve the lives of the Gazans Who Don't matter.
Tom

Another evasion.

I repeat -
How is recognizing the GWM is the biggest problem here justifies withholding water from children in Gaza?
You are 0 for 2 with your responses. One could reasonably conclude you realize it doesn't justify withholding water from children in Gaza.

Interesting, the gov't of Israel early in this war debated whether to deny food and water into Gaza. They decided against it.

BTW, the current deal is a peaceful one for returning hostages. The fact it upsets people like you does not make it any less peaceful.



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[TomC]

How is recognizing the GWM is the biggest problem here justifies withholding water from children in Gaza

GWM are the ones withholding water from youngsters, if it happens.

Why do you not understand that simple fact?

If Israel offers to keep supplying water and power, but Gazans choose to keep up the kidnapping, children won't get basic supplies because Gazans have more important priorities.

Tom

 

[laughing dog]

How is recognizing the GWM is the biggest problem here justifies withholding water from children in Gaza

GWM are the ones withholding water from youngsters, if it happens.

Why do you not understand that simple fact?

It is not a simple fact. If GWM had water and withheld it, then it would be a simple fact. However, if Israel withhold water for any reason so GWM does not have water to withhold to children, then it is a complex fact. I realize that complex is more difficult than simple, but IMO it Should not be beyond the grasp of most reasonable people.

If Israel offers to keep supplying water and power, but Gazans choose to keep up the kidnapping, children won't get basic supplies because Gazans have more important priorities.

Tom

"Gazans" are not choosing to keep kidnapping - GWM are. That fact seems to confuse you, even though GWM is your own construction.

Nonetheless, you continue to evade my question. From what I can tell, your argument is the ends justify the means or"If Hamas doesn't care about ______ (you fill in the blank), then neither should Israel, so Israel is justified in doing anything it wants to Hamas".

Even the gov't of Israel rejects those positions. And, I think they are showing good reason. They have chosen not to withhold water and food and have negotiated a return of the hostages that is a peaceful outcome for now. Which makes me wonder why on earth would anyone propose an alternative solution, let alone one that is barbaric.

 

[Derec]

Some good news for a change.

Terrorist behind deadly bombing falls to his death a week after release under Gaza deal

Nael Obeid, a Hamas terrorist notorious for his role in the deadly 2003 Cafe Hillel bombing in Jerusalem, fell to his death near his home in East Jerusalem after being freed in a hostage-prisoner exchange a week ago.
Obeid went free on February 15 as part of the ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas in Gaza, which has seen Israel free hundreds of terrorists, many of them convicted for deadly attacks, in return for hostages taken on October 7, 2023.
[...]
[Nael Obeid and his cousin] spent over a year scoping out potential terror targets and accumulating weapons before transporting 22-year-old Ramez Abu Salim to the bustling street, where he carried out the bombing on September 9, 2003.
Among the victims of the bombing were Dr. David Applebaum, who treated suicide bombing victims as head of Shaare Zedek Hospital’s emergency room, and his daughter Nava, who was to be married the next day.

Good riddance to bad rubbish! May they all meet a similar fate.

 

[Derec]

It is not a simple fact. If GWM had water and withheld it, then it would be a simple fact. However, if Israel withhold water for any reason so GWM does not have water to withhold to children, then it is a complex fact.

It's a bit complex. "GWM" encourages GWDNM (aka NPCs) to keep having large numbers of children, well past the carrying capacity of the Strip. People with 8 children and more are not uncommon in Gaza.

Resultant exponential population growth over decades has led to the Coastal Aquifer being overdrawn, restricting water supply of Gaza.

There is also the issue of GWM digging up water pipes to make rockets, and bragging about it.

"Gazans" are not choosing to keep kidnapping - GWM are.

GWM ⊂ Gazans. They are not some foreign entity.

have negotiated a return of the hostages that is a peaceful outcome for now.

Bad move in the long run. Hundreds of terrorists have been freed for a handful of hostages, which will only encourage hostage taking in the future. And Hamas is still in power, and will regroup and rearm.
Israel should have continued the war until Hamas is ready to give up the hostages without making such outlandish demands and without still clinging to power.
It was said that Hamas was able to recruit 10-15k new fighters. Ok. They are untrained and would have been easy to deal with. Now Hamas has the time to train them, and attack Israel again.
It would have been better to keep fighting.