The Difference Between Atheism And Religion

[ideologyhunter]

Anyone who tries to pull you into the rabbit hole of "God is whatever is most important to you" is wasting your time. I suppose such folks are trying to say, "My supernaturalism is just as sensible as your pursuit of x," but it aint so, and no amount of false equivocation will make it so.

 

[bilby]

This is where I think the crux of the matter is. It's where atheists and I go 'round and 'round and 'round. How would you define god? Because to me it simply means might, venerated.

With respect, why would I care what it means to you?

I care what it means to most people in my society.

And so should you, unless you are trying to enable the very common bait-and-switch gotcha "argument", that goes something like this:

1. God simply means <insert something that obviously exists>

2. You cannot therefore deny that God is real and exists

3. Therefore you are only pretending to be an atheist

4. And you are really a member of my specific religion, who is lying to himself about its obvious factuality​

Now, you may not be trying to make this obviously very bad argument; But given how frequently I encounter it, and given how your set up here looks exactly like the setup for this truly execrable argument, you can understand my trepidation and my disinclination to agree with the first premise, which is personal to you (rather than generally or objectively true).

 

[ideologyhunter]

Honestly, we went through this ad nauseam with that Universal Soldier guy, last year. The bucket had a hole in it, back then, and nobody's patched it since.

 

[abaddon]

... A god can be anything or anyone. Then the atheist will typically argue "that's not what we mean by god(s)."

The atheist will typically argue that it's not what most theists mean by God. They're not defining gods for the theists, they're reacting to the most commonplace claims (which is that gods are supernatural beings that "literally" exist).

It's the word "exist" that especially needs defining. In these discussions, atheists always mean "exist" in the sense of "is still there even when I'm not viewing it or thinking about it or imagining it". To exist in a way that's broadly meaningful, it needs to 'be there' independently of the mind.

A frog might be a prince to you, but if it's a frog to us that's the end of this line of argument... Period. Remember, atheism is about being unconvinced of theism. No assertion that "I call this a god so it's a god" will convince an atheist it's a god, and rightly so, therefore holding to atheism remains justified.

Also, this looks like a big to-do over a mere simile. If I say "my girlfriend is a goddess" it means that, to me, the woman is LIKE a goddess. But the woman's a woman and not a goddess except poetically to one dude. So, except as a private sentiment, it is not a meaningful claim that'll help illuminate the nature of reality for all of us generally.

So if your revered Whatever is LIKE a god or goddess because it or he or she is revered, then leave the "like" part of the idea in the sentence.

 

[unapologetic]

To be more precise I am an anti-theist.
I know gods do not exist. That makes me atheist.
I oppose cults and the supernatural. That makes me an anti-theist. (ALL religions are cults)

Perhaps the question could have been phrased more like why there is such animosity between atheists and theists or do you think that is the case?

Because cultists feel threatened by people who know they are full of shit. (and unafraid to say so.) Believers started it.
The cults mandate that believers recruit. That makes them an actual threat to non-members.

Do not atheists have practices that are useful as a consequence of their disbelief?

I am generally more skeptical than most people. And act accordingly. Is this cause or effect of my religious disbelief? I don't know.

A stamp collector might join a discussion group of stamp collectors but a non-stamp collector isn't likely to join a group of non-stamp collectors.

That would depend on whether stamp collectors were in the habit of imposing their hobby on him, despite his lack of interest.

If such imposition were common in his community, he might well join a non-stanp collector group to discuss ways they can defend themselves against this.

I wanted to say this.

They actually think the atheists online who do this sort of thing are worse than religious.

And we think online believers are worse. It's just an effect of the conflict. Offline I just never talk about religion. And avoid sheeple.

If it were not for the actions of Christians in this country none of us atheists would likerly care what they believe.

As I said. Believers started it.

Tens of millions of votes were not necessarily cast for Harris, but against Trump.

As with Biden, people were voting against Rump.
Rump only got elected because both times, too many people wouldn't vote for a woman.

 

[pood]

Honestly, we went through this ad nauseam with that Universal Soldier guy, last year. The bucket had a hole in it, back then, and nobody's patched it since.

And that other guy who thought the North Korean leader was god. I haven’t really read this thread. Is it the same old definitional bait-and-switch shell game? Or is there something worth looking at?

 

[Ford]

I was an unbeliever until I was 27, everyone I know is atheist, I've been having religious discussions online for over 30 years, 99% of that has been by choice with atheists on atheists forums. Most of which ended badly. I would like to know what is. in your opinion, the difference between atheism and religion?

I'm very skeptical of your claim that everyone you know is an atheist. You don't know a single person since you became a believer at 27 who is a theist? Really? 30 years having online discussions (which means this started for you in 1995) and you don't know a single theist?

Hmm...

 

[DLH]

To be more precise I am an anti-theist.

That term has always made more sense to me than atheist.

I know gods do not exist. That makes me atheist.

The problem I have with this is a god can be anything or anyone. Countless gods have and do exist.

I oppose cults and the supernatural. That makes me an anti-theist. (ALL religions are cults)

I agree, and I do as well. I guess I'm an anti-theist theist, then? Actually I don't oppose them, I just have nothing to do with them and would like to see them destroyed.

Perhaps the question could have been phrased more like why there is such animosity between atheists and theists or do you think that is the case?

Because cultists feel threatened by people who know they are full of shit. (and unafraid to say so.) Believers started it.

Honestly, I don't think they care much. Jesus said he was no part of the world and his followers would be no part of the world. The early Christians, up until Constantine the great in 325 CE didn't participate in worldly affairs like wars and politics. The modern day Christians are apostate, preferring myth and fables over truth. The immortal soul of Socrates, the trinity of Plato, the cross from Tammuz and Constantine, hell from Dante and Milton, the rapture from Darby, Christmas from the Saturnalia and Dickens, Easter from Astarte the fertility goddess and consort of Baal with her fertility symbols the cross, rabbit, and egg. Christians don't give a fuck about the truth or God, they merely appoint themselves as moral police of the globe.

The problem with that is, in a democracy the mob rules. You are the minority. That's the game.

The cults mandate that believers recruit. That makes them an actual threat to non-members.

Recruiting?

Do not atheists have practices that are useful as a consequence of their disbelief?

I am generally more skeptical than most people. And act accordingly. Is this cause or effect of my religious disbelief? I don't know.

Okay. Fair enough.

A stamp collector might join a discussion group of stamp collectors but a non-stamp collector isn't likely to join a group of non-stamp collectors.

That would depend on whether stamp collectors were in the habit of imposing their hobby on him, despite his lack of interest.

If such imposition were common in his community, he might well join a non-stanp collector group to discuss ways they can defend themselves against this.

I wanted to say this.

When Jesus was asked by his disciples why he taught in parables he answered "they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven" He didn't want them to believe because they didn't want to. His message was originally only for believing Jews. Not the gentiles.

They actually think the atheists online who do this sort of thing are worse than religious.

And we think online believers are worse. It's just an effect of the conflict. Offline I just never talk about religion. And avoid sheeple.

The only time I do is when my atheist friends and family mock and ridicule me and I just say their idiots that don't know what the fuck they are talking about. But they get a kick out of it. That's the only reason they do it. They don't really care.

 

[DLH]

I was an unbeliever until I was 27, everyone I know is atheist, I've been having religious discussions online for over 30 years, 99% of that has been by choice with atheists on atheists forums. Most of which ended badly. I would like to know what is. in your opinion, the difference between atheism and religion?

I'm very skeptical of your claim that everyone you know is an atheist. You don't know a single person since you became a believer at 27 who is a theist? Really? 30 years having online discussions (which means this started for you in 1995) and you don't know a single theist?

Hmm...

The kids I grew up with were altar boys and dragged to church by their parents but they didn't buy that shit. My dad's family were atheists and my mom's family were theists but she had little to do with them and she herself was irreligious until in her 50's. She then became a believer until her death in 2024. Online I avoid theists like the plague. Sure, I've had brief discussions with a few of them but I don't know them. Everyone I know (present tense) IRL are atheists, but that isn't saying much because I keep to myself. I avoid the atheist as well as the theist idiots.

 

[DLH]

Anyone who tries to pull you into the rabbit hole of "God is whatever is most important to you" is wasting your time. I suppose such folks are trying to say, "My supernaturalism is just as sensible as your pursuit of x," but it aint so, and no amount of false equivocation will make it so.

You don't know much about gods, then. It has nothing to do with sensible or necessarily important. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the supernatural.

 

[DLH]

Honestly, we went through this ad nauseam with that Universal Soldier guy, last year. The bucket had a hole in it, back then, and nobody's patched it since.

Right. You still carry that bucket.

 

[DLH]

Honestly, we went through this ad nauseam with that Universal Soldier guy, last year. The bucket had a hole in it, back then, and nobody's patched it since.

And that other guy who thought the North Korean leader was god. I haven’t really read this thread. Is it the same old definitional bait-and-switch shell game? Or is there something worth looking at?

He is. As were Roman rulers entitled Zeus, the Sumerian kings which were deified upon their death, the Royal Japanese family, Pharaohs . . .

 

[ideologyhunter]

Anyone who tries to pull you into the rabbit hole of "God is whatever is most important to you" is wasting your time. I suppose such folks are trying to say, "My supernaturalism is just as sensible as your pursuit of x," but it aint so, and no amount of false equivocation will make it so.

You don't know much about gods, then. It has nothing to do with sensible or necessarily important. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the supernatural.

Oh, right, because gods can be Hershey bars, if you like 'em enough.

 

[Ford]

I was an unbeliever until I was 27, everyone I know is atheist, I've been having religious discussions online for over 30 years, 99% of that has been by choice with atheists on atheists forums. Most of which ended badly. I would like to know what is. in your opinion, the difference between atheism and religion?

I'm very skeptical of your claim that everyone you know is an atheist. You don't know a single person since you became a believer at 27 who is a theist? Really? 30 years having online discussions (which means this started for you in 1995) and you don't know a single theist?

Hmm...

The kids I grew up with were altar boys and dragged to church by their parents but they didn't buy that shit. My dad's family were atheists and my mom's family were theists but she had little to do with them and she herself was irreligious until in her 50's. She then became a believer until her death in 2024. Online I avoid theists like the plague. Sure, I've had brief discussions with a few of them but I don't know them. Everyone I know (present tense) IRL are atheists, but that isn't saying much because I keep to myself. I avoid the atheist as well as the theist idiots.

So your mom's family were theists, then she became a believer, and you say that everyone you know is an atheist.

Something isn't adding up here, to put it mildly.

 

[DLH]

... A god can be anything or anyone. Then the atheist will typically argue "that's not what we mean by god(s)."

The atheist will typically argue that it's not what most theists mean by God.

To me that's like train conductors don't mean "cars" except for that train conductors don't say cars don't exist, just that they mean a different form of car. If no one worshipped Jehovah then Jehovah would no longer be God or a god. It has nothing to do with his supernatural abilities. It's about veneration. Worship.

They're not defining gods for the theists, they're reacting to the most commonplace claims (which is that gods are supernatural beings that "literally" exist).

They are, but they are also other things. The Bible calls Moses, the Judges and other mortal men gods and satan. God means mighty satan means adversary. Lord means having authority, usually granted. Paul said their belly (food) is their god.

It's the word "exist" that especially needs defining. In these discussions, atheists always mean "exist" in the sense of "is still there even when I'm not viewing it or thinking about it or imagining it". To exist in a way that's broadly meaningful, it needs to 'be there' independently of the mind.

I think many of the words need to be defined in these discussions. Exist is one of them. Also god, belief, faith. It doesn't matter though. No one cares. People believe what they want to believe and you're wasting your time trying to inform them.

A frog might be a prince to you, but if it's a frog to us that's the end of this line of argument... Period.

What argument? If a frog or a prince is a god to you that is the end of the argument. You can't say because the frog isn't supernatural it can't be a god any more than you can say because you don't think something exists it can't. Or needs to.

Remember, atheism is about being unconvinced of theism. No assertion that "I call this a god so it's a god" will convince an atheist it's a god, and rightly so, therefore holding to atheism remains justified.

Rightly so according to atheists? Certainly not 6,000 years of history in every language known to man.

Also, this looks like a big to-do over a mere simile. If I say "my girlfriend is a goddess" it means that, to me, the woman is LIKE a goddess. But the woman's a woman and not a goddess except poetically to one dude. So, except as a private sentiment, it is not a meaningful claim that'll help illuminate the nature of reality for all of us generally.

So if your revered Whatever is LIKE a god or goddess because it or he or she is revered, then leave the "like" part of the idea in the sentence.

Your premise, that it has to be supernatural, is faulty.

 

[pood]

Honestly, we went through this ad nauseam with that Universal Soldier guy, last year. The bucket had a hole in it, back then, and nobody's patched it since.

And that other guy who thought the North Korean leader was god. I haven’t really read this thread. Is it the same old definitional bait-and-switch shell game? Or is there something worth looking at?

He is. As were Roman rulers entitled Zeus, the Sumerian kings which were deified upon their death, the Royal Japanese family, Pharaohs . . .

Oh, OK. Are you the same guy using a different user name?

 

[DLH]

So your mom's family were theists, then she became a believer, and you say that everyone you know is an atheist.

Something isn't adding up here, to put it mildly.

Know. Present tense. I didn't know my mother's family. All of her sisters and brothers are dead. If my cousins walked up to me, I wouldn't know them. I don't think any of those are theists, but I don't know. I don't know them. My brother, sister, dad, paternal uncles and aunts, and the few friends I have or have had to be more accurately, are atheists.

Why is that difficult for you to understand? They aren't militant atheists like you come across on the internet, they are apathetic. They don't care. It isn't an ideological fixation or political with them.

 

[DLH]

Oh, OK. Are you the same guy using a different user name?

Yes, RIS. See my profile status.

 

[DLH]

Anyone who tries to pull you into the rabbit hole of "God is whatever is most important to you" is wasting your time. I suppose such folks are trying to say, "My supernaturalism is just as sensible as your pursuit of x," but it aint so, and no amount of false equivocation will make it so.

You don't know much about gods, then. It has nothing to do with sensible or necessarily important. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the supernatural.

Oh, right, because gods can be Hershey bars, if you like 'em enough.

Correct. The food of the gods can be God, gods, godlike, deity, lord, etc. Figuratively, literally, fiction, non-fiction, etc.

 

[pood]

Oh, OK. Are you the same guy using a different user name?

Yes, RIS. See my profile status.

I see. Back to this again. Why did you change your user name?