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If we no longer force people to work to meet their basic needs, won't they stop working?

Unlike you, I am trying to distinguish between actual facts and truthiness.
It's not hard at all to find out why Ford raised his wages.
You do realize it is up to the claimers to substantiate their claims.
15 seconds with Google turns up this quite damning article:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/financ...-workers-undermines-the-living-wage-campaign/

which shows why the leftist claim must be false.
It is clear you did not read the article. It does not provide any actual evidence as to Ford's motivation. It provides circumstantial (and reasonable) explanations.

The reality is that we don't know what motivated Ford to increase payments to workers (interestingly, part of the scheme was a form of profit-sharing). It may very well be a myth that Ford raised payments to his workers so they could afford hsi cars. On the otherhand, it may have been one factor that did motivate him. Nothing in that article, or any article I have seen, disputes my interpretation. Which is why I asked for a source.

Of course we have no way to read his mind--but neither do you. Your side made the claim he raised wages for the sake of the workers, you are now placing the goalpost in a fashion that rules out your original claim.

What the article did show is that it couldn't have accomplished the objective you are claiming for it.
 
Your side made the claim he raised wages for the sake of the workers...


For clarity's sake, allow me to quote...me:


Once people like 'ole Henry Ford figured out that paying people more than starvation wages turned them into customers and not just labor, things changed again. Coupled with the efforts of labor movements, we went from having to work sunup to sundown in order to merely survive, to working in order to make a living. A little extra money and a little extra time on the hands of the workers moved things forward. Consumer goods and services became a much larger part of the economy. A middle class emerged, made up of people who would have merely survived a generation or two earlier.

Now, instead of starting work on the farm as a kid and working all the time until you died, you could put in a third of your day working, have weekends off, and still make enough to have a chicken in the pot and a car in the garage.


Now, I'm willing to concede that Henry probably didn't raise his workers' wages as a result of a "eureka...they can buy a Model T!" moment, but he certainly understood that higher wages were a net positive.


But that's only half the equation. The other half is the "coupled with the efforts of labor movements" part. Did nobody catch that? Apparently not.


As I understand things, Henry Ford (like just about any industrialist of the age) hated unions. Hated organized labor. Hated making concessions to his employees. But again, the higher wages were a good thing no matter the reason. Higher wages leads to disposable income which leads to demand for consumer goods which leads to an expanding economy.


Can someone please explain how lower wages lead to economic growth? I'll wait.
 
What do you think the welfare reform act in the late '90's was?...........a compassionate act passed to help people in need? It was in fact an act to force people to work for a living...or languish without support of the government. It offered the unemployed poor access to a few short term training programs to introduce people to employment in go nowhere jobs or, in short order, to not eat. It ignored the heavy lifting the government would have to do to actually reinstate these people to functionality in society.
I don't like the connotation of "force". It reeks of disingenuousness. How about "encourages"?

I agree. The government encourages people to pay taxes.
 
For clarity's sake, allow me to quote...me:


Once people like 'ole Henry Ford figured out that paying people more than starvation wages turned them into customers and not just labor, things changed again. Coupled with the efforts of labor movements, we went from having to work sunup to sundown in order to merely survive, to working in order to make a living. A little extra money and a little extra time on the hands of the workers moved things forward. Consumer goods and services became a much larger part of the economy. A middle class emerged, made up of people who would have merely survived a generation or two earlier.

Now, instead of starting work on the farm as a kid and working all the time until you died, you could put in a third of your day working, have weekends off, and still make enough to have a chicken in the pot and a car in the garage.


Now, I'm willing to concede that Henry probably didn't raise his workers' wages as a result of a "eureka...they can buy a Model T!" moment, but he certainly understood that higher wages were a net positive.


But that's only half the equation. The other half is the "coupled with the efforts of labor movements" part. Did nobody catch that? Apparently not.


As I understand things, Henry Ford (like just about any industrialist of the age) hated unions. Hated organized labor. Hated making concessions to his employees. But again, the higher wages were a good thing no matter the reason. Higher wages leads to disposable income which leads to demand for consumer goods which leads to an expanding economy.


Can someone please explain how lower wages lead to economic growth? I'll wait.

Take it to the extreme: imagine that labor was free. You could have unlimited amounts of it since it doesn't cost anything. Can you not imagine how having unlimited labor wouldn't lead to more goods/services being produced (Or just simply more work getting done)?
 
Take it to the extreme

Well that's where both the libertarian and communist models fail...at the hypothetical extreme that doesn't exist in the real world.
 
Unlike you, I am trying to distinguish between actual facts and truthiness.
You do realize it is up to the claimers to substantiate their claims.
15 seconds with Google turns up this quite damning article:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/financ...-workers-undermines-the-living-wage-campaign/

which shows why the leftist claim must be false.
It is clear you did not read the article. It does not provide any actual evidence as to Ford's motivation. It provides circumstantial (and reasonable) explanations.

The reality is that we don't know what motivated Ford to increase payments to workers (interestingly, part of the scheme was a form of profit-sharing). It may very well be a myth that Ford raised payments to his workers so they could afford hsi cars. On the otherhand, it may have been one factor that did motivate him. Nothing in that article, or any article I have seen, disputes my interpretation. Which is why I asked for a source.

Of course we have no way to read his mind--but neither do you. Your side made the claim he raised wages for the sake of the workers, you are now placing the goalpost in a fashion that rules out your original claim.
No one claimed that Ford raised wages only for the sake of the workers, so your response is based on a straw man.
What the article did show is that it couldn't have accomplished the objective you are claiming for it.
First, since I did not claim what Ford's objective(s) were, so your claim is wrong. Secondly, even if someone had claimed that the sole objective of Ford was to have his workers afford his Model Ts, the article does not show that objective could not be accomplished. So, you are wrong on the facts and on the logic. Again.
 
"You must work" and "you must work or possibly die" are not the same, yet people want to conflate them.
There is no conflation, if your choice is between death or doing something then yes you are being forced to do it. Most reasonable people agree with that definition of the word force.
 
.... If your choice is between death or doing something then yes you are being forced to do it. Most reasonable people agree with that definition of the word force.

Really? Where is the choice between death and I got an inheritance right after I was told I must work.
I can't really understand your sentence but lets assume whatever your arguing there is correct. How is it related to my comment about the word force being appropriate when the question is either "You must work" and "you must work or possibly die". Or in other words "You are being forced to work or you will possibly die."
 
Is there an actual quote from Ford himself that he said he was raising wages so his people could buy the model Ts or was it later an addition?

It's also intereting, when Ford raised his wages, one of the conditions was that workers would have to subject to his morality police who would check up on the people to make sure they had moral values. Would workers be okay today with conditions such as employer coming to your house and verifying you don't drink or smoke?
 
"You must work" and "you must work or possibly die" are not the same, yet people want to conflate them.
There is no conflation, if your choice is between death or doing something then yes you are being forced to do it. Most reasonable people agree with that definition of the word force.
If you break down on a cold deserted highway and try to walk your way in the freezing cold to safety and I so happen to stop and offer help by giving you a ride so you don't freeze to death, it would be very shameful of you to later tell an officer that you were forced into my vehicle without making it clear where such force was born. The relevant difference is between force by circumstance and force by another. If I tell you to do as I say (for instance, get into my car) or face the consequences, then the difference still lies in whether I'm saying a) it's freezing out here, so you better get in or freeze to death and b) get in or I'll kill you.

The problem is that people are using the classic victim card. If the primary bread winning husband packs up and leaves, the working low income wife may say she was forced to get a second job when in fact she was never forced to get a second job. What she could have done is scaled back her lifestyle. Instead, she might say she was forced to get a second job to make ends meat (when in fact all she means is that she got another job to maintain her lifestyle). The qualification makes all the difference in the world. I was forced to work versus I was forced to work in order ... .

Don't blame society (or members of society) for forcing you to work. No one is forcing anyone to do anything. If circumstances are such that you won't eat if you don't work, say that.
 
Don't blame society (or members of society) for forcing you to work. No one is forcing anyone to do anything. If circumstances are such that you won't eat if you don't work, say that.
Society is responsible for its members circumstances. Its organization and distribution of resources didn't happen by accident.
 
No, that's different.

How?
We are constrained to pay taxes should we choose to work, just as we're constrained to get a drivers license if we choose to drive. It's neither the case that I must get a drivers license or that I must work, but if I choose to do either, then I must do that which I'm constrained to do--or face the consequences.
 
We are constrained to pay taxes should we choose to work, just as we're constrained to get a drivers license if we choose to drive. It's neither the case that I must get a drivers license or that I must work, but if I choose to do either, then I must do that which I'm constrained to do--or face the consequences.

Yes, I get that; but what I am asking is how it is different from the fact that we are constrained to work should we choose to eat.

Nothing in your post makes clear your reasons (or indeed any reasons) to consider the situations to be in any way dissimilar.
 
We are constrained to pay taxes should we choose to work, just as we're constrained to get a drivers license if we choose to drive. It's neither the case that I must get a drivers license or that I must work, but if I choose to do either, then I must do that which I'm constrained to do--or face the consequences.

Yes, I get that; but what I am asking is how it is different from the fact that we are constrained to work should we choose to eat.

Nothing in your post makes clear your reasons (or indeed any reasons) to consider the situations to be in any way dissimilar.
But we're not constrained to work should we choose to eat. We're not even constrained to work.
 
The shame of our society is that people are not given the chance to work in order to give themselves a decent standard of life. Instead, some have money doled out for doing nothing, and others who would like to do the former and contribute to society are ignored. It's all just because certain people can be relied to vote a certain way if the right strings are pulled, or not pulled.
 
Don't blame society (or members of society) for forcing you to work. No one is forcing anyone to do anything. If circumstances are such that you won't eat if you don't work, say that.
Society is responsible for its members circumstances. Its organization and distribution of resources didn't happen by accident.

Society doesn't make people into leeches.
 
Society is responsible for its members circumstances. Its organization and distribution of resources didn't happen by accident.

Society doesn't make people into leeches.

You are incorrect! Society licenses leaches...aristocracy, landlords, bankers, warmongers, billionaires, generals, stock traders etc. This kind of leach may hustle, but actually WORK....FORGET IT! In the stock market trade, there are computers that make trades in microseconds based on algorithms the leaches pay people to work out. Until we restore some sanity and sense of something at least resembling ethics, this "creative" robbery of society will continue at an increasing pace, just like GLOBAL WARMING. Bad faith squanders humanity's capacity to live together in peace by creating the illusion of easy acquisition of wealth. It is possible for a person to rob several banks, and if he doesn't get caught, he can live the rest of his life without working. Unfortunately that type of activity may cause some others not so "creative" to also not be able to work for the rest of their lives....but their lives may be markedly different.
 
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