Are we no better than Dogs?

[Elixir]

I love my dog. My dog loves me.
God approves of love. (Or he would if he existed and conformed to the description that religions are selling).
So screw your characterizations.

 

[pood]

.
A Dog's life as a pet is unnatural - it is not the way nature or God intended them to live

“God” or nature did not “intend” anything with dogs. Dogs and humans are co-evolved in a mutually beneficial relationship.

ALL creatures on earth are supposed to stand on their own two legs

Let me put it to you this way: there are more viruses on earth than there are stars in the universe.

Viruses are parasites.

So, by your own reasoning, clearly god, or nature, favors parasitism.

 

[Elixir]

ALL creatures on earth are supposed to stand on their own two legs - that is what nature or God tells us.

Mental hospitals are full of people who know what god tells them.
Nature doesn’t “tell” anyone anything. It just IS. It exists as “reality” external to our selves. We can learn about it by observing it, but imputing intent to it is totally misguided.

 

[Ramaraksha]

No, it does not tell us that. Nature yields descriptive, and not normative, propositions. You are confusing the two

I am saying that the vast majority of life forms lead a life where they are expected to hunt or forage for food
childhood does not last long - a helpless dependent life does not last long
One MUST grow up and learn to stand on one's own two feet - face the world as Adults - the story of Adam
THIS is the world that nature made for all life forms, including us

Great. So what? As I said, it’s a co-evolved mutually beneficial relationship. There are any number of such relationships in the world.

it started as two independent life forms helping each other - life as a pet was not the dog's intention - it had no choice in this matter
We basically forced them to be our pets & now they are our helpless dependents - cats can survive without us but most Dogs will die without our help
That is not Nature - hence very unnatural

If it’s part of nature, it’s natural. And everything is part of nature. The pets I have had certainly seemed satisfied with their “unnatural” life.

I am sorry that is a joke right? Who are you to speak what they think? Next you will be telling me that animals confined to zoos love it in there. Quite a lot of dogs are mistreated by their owners - have you not seen the commercials from animal rights groups - dogs left out in the cold in chains, dogs starving to death
And when dogs get sick quite a lot of owners will simply leave them out on the streets - too costly to get them back to health
or sometimes the owners simply get tired of their dogs
I used to work in a animal shelter - people adopt pit bulls when they are young and cute - well they grow up to be big and strong and not so cute anymore and the owners simply dump them. Shelters can feed them for only so long and then it is murder er "putting them to sleep"
Dogs don't deserve this nor did they ask for this
.
And cronies, prostitutes, sycophants, yes-men, gigolos also live the good life and are happy with their lives as parasites
But do we not say that such a life is wrong? Mock them for it?

 

[Ramaraksha]

Let me put it to you this way: there are more viruses on earth than there are stars in the universe.

Viruses are parasites.

So, by your own reasoning, clearly god, or nature, favors parasitism.

Fine, would you like to be one? That is the question
You have free will - you have heard that over and over usually used to threaten and push conversions
But I am using it to say God is asking what you want to be?
Here in the REAL WORLD you are expected to get a job, PAY for food, a roof over your head, EARN what you desire, obtain
If anyone says you got the job or promotion because the boss took a "liking" to you, and you didn't EARN it, that would be an insult, fists would fly!
These are called morals, values, principles
Some do not have them - prostitutes, sycophants, yes-men, cronies, gigolos - they are more than happy to be parasites
It is amazing to see how quickly you religious people drop all morals, values!
If being a parasite is your choice, then your life as a parasite is here on earth - as you said as a virus

 

[Ramaraksha]

ALL creatures on earth are supposed to stand on their own two legs - that is what nature or God tells us.

Mental hospitals are full of people who know what god tells them.
Nature doesn’t “tell” anyone anything. It just IS. It exists as “reality” external to our selves. We can learn about it by observing it, but imputing intent to it is totally misguided.

And you don't see the contradiction in what you just wrote - we can learn but it does not tell us anything?
Try quitting your job, not earning a paycheck - you will learn pretty quick what nature is telling you
Nature is telling the predator animal that can't hunt because of a broken leg, that death is near - same goes for a foraging animal when there is no food to eat
Is nature not telling you that once you become an adult you need to move out of the house? Get a job? EARN a paycheck? learn to stand on your own two feet? Face the world as an adult?
ALL creatures on earth get this message

 

[Ramaraksha]

Mental hospitals are full of people who know what god tells them.

wow now I am a crazy person? nice
So plenty of religious people claim that God talked to them - that includes Jesus, Mohammed - they are mentally ill people?
I use the word God because that is how I can get thru to religious people - others I use Nature
Religious people believe that God made everything - well if he did, did he not also make the laws that we ALL follow? and by ALL, ALL life forms on earth & it is quite easy to see what these laws are
Religious people don't like what I am saying because it shows them as shameless freeloaders, parasites, thinking they can just sit and sponge off God & that is against what God intended
But in my view, they have free will - if a parasite is what they want to be, so be it

 

[pood]

No, it does not tell us that. Nature yields descriptive, and not normative, propositions. You are confusing the two

I am saying that the vast majority of life forms lead a life where they are expected to hunt or forage for food
childhood does not last long - a helpless dependent life does not last long
One MUST grow up and learn to stand on one's own two feet - face the world as Adults - the story of Adam
THIS is the world that nature made for all life forms, including us

So much nonsense. I’ll just respond to this for now.

As noted earlier, there are more viruses on earth than stars in the observable universe. Viruses are parasites. Ergo, God wants us to mooch off others, by your own reasoning. Then there is the bacterial world, also largely parasitic. Do you know that the vast majority of earth’s biome is bacterial and viral?

Great. So what? As I said, it’s a co-evolved mutually beneficial relationship. There are any number of such relationships in the world.

it started as two independent life forms helping each other - life as a pet was not the dog's intention - it had no choice in this matter

Dogs found it advantageous to help us because they got food from us. So? Happens all the time in nature.

We basically forced them to be our pets

Wrong. They helped us because we helped them. No force involved, Evolutionarily, we adopted each other’s oxytocin pathways, the love hormone, the same hormone activated in a mother and her child when they gaze into each other’s eyes. Dogs love us and we love them, and we help each other. Evolution in action.

& now they are our helpless dependents - cats can survive without us but most Dogs will die without our help
That is not Nature - hence very unnatural

Wrong, see above

More later. I have not yet waded through all your misconceptions

 

[steve_bank]

From a lions point of view humans are meat on the table.

Non human species being better of lesser than humans is a purely human - centric perspective.

From an evolutionary view tis just different paths.

 

[Elixir]

wow now I am a crazy person? nice

No intent to imply that but I see that I did - sorry! It's just that this god/nature duality/equality/substitutable value... has a sort of production feel to it.

 

[Elixir]

I am sorry that is a joke right?

Not in my case.

Who are you to speak what they think?

Their best friend.
She can't speak.

 

[Tigers!]

I worked in the media for years. Most were atheists/hedonists.

That might explain the very poor performance of the media.

 

[steve_bank]

I worked in the media for years. Most were atheists/hedonists.

That might explain the very poor performance of the media.

Yes, Christian oriented media like FOX News is a better example of how the media should be...

 

[bilby]

ALL creatures on earth are supposed to stand on their own two legs

The vast majority of creatures on Earth do not have legs. Even amongst multicellular crestures, most live in water, and have zero legs. Amongst land-dwelling creatures with legs, six legs are more common than four, and four more common than two.

 

[bilby]

wow now I am a crazy person?

No, no, not at all.

It's far from being just now.

 

[bilby]

From a lions point of view humans are meat on the table.

From a lion's point of view, humans (plural) are dangerous predators that need to be avoided. If they find one on its own and unarmed, that's a different story.

 

[southernhybrid]

Back to dogs. I thought I'd post a little something about the evolutions of dogs. The article I'll link came. out in 2013, around the same time I started reading about dog research. Before anyone makes assumptions about the relationship between dogs and humans, they should do some reading and study the science about dogs. There are countless books about how dogs evolved and about dogs brains, emotions etc.

https://www.livescience.com/31997-dogs-and-humans-evolved-together.html

Dogs are more than man's best friend: They may be partners in humans' evolutionary journey, according to a new study.


The study shows that dogs split from gray wolves about 32,000 years ago, and that since then, domestic dogs' brains and digestive organs have evolved in ways very similar to the brains and organs of humans.


The findings suggest a more ancient origin for dog domestication than previously suggested. They also hint that a common environment drove both dog and human evolution for thousands of years.


"As domestication is often associated with large increases in population density and crowded living conditions, these 'unfavorable' environments might be the selective pressure that drove the rewiring of both species," the researchers wrote in their article, published today (May 14) in the journal Nature Communications.

It isn't clear precisely when wolves were tamed and transformed into man's best friend, and the date has been hotly debated. An ancient, doglike skull uncovered in the Siberian Mountains suggested that the first dogs were domesticatedaround 33,000 years ago from gray wolves. But genetic analysis suggested dogs in China were domesticated only about 16,000 years ago.

In any case, most researchers agree that by about 10,000 years ago, dogs were firmly ensconced in human society.

 

[pood]

Back to dogs. I thought I'd post a little something about the evolutions of dogs. The article I'll link came. out in 2013, around the same time I started reading about dog research. Before anyone makes assumptions about the relationship between dogs and humans, they should do some reading and study the science about dogs. There are countless books about how dogs evolved and about dogs brains, emotions etc.

https://www.livescience.com/31997-dogs-and-humans-evolved-together.html

Dogs are more than man's best friend: They may be partners in humans' evolutionary journey, according to a new study.


The study shows that dogs split from gray wolves about 32,000 years ago, and that since then, domestic dogs' brains and digestive organs have evolved in ways very similar to the brains and organs of humans.


The findings suggest a more ancient origin for dog domestication than previously suggested. They also hint that a common environment drove both dog and human evolution for thousands of years.


"As domestication is often associated with large increases in population density and crowded living conditions, these 'unfavorable' environments might be the selective pressure that drove the rewiring of both species," the researchers wrote in their article, published today (May 14) in the journal Nature Communications.

It isn't clear precisely when wolves were tamed and transformed into man's best friend, and the date has been hotly debated. An ancient, doglike skull uncovered in the Siberian Mountains suggested that the first dogs were domesticatedaround 33,000 years ago from gray wolves. But genetic analysis suggested dogs in China were domesticated only about 16,000 years ago.

In any case, most researchers agree that by about 10,000 years ago, dogs were firmly ensconced in human society.

Exactly. Humans didn’t “force” dogs to become pets, it was simply co-evolution and mutually beneficial. I’m not a big fan of humans, but I can imagine how much worse we might be without dogs around. I’m sure our co-evolution has altered both species significantly. One physical change among several, I might imagine: The eyes of wolves are slanted and seemingly threatening to humans. Dogs’ eyes are rounded and more human-like, surely under selective pressure because more human-like eyes are more appealing to humans.

 

[Elixir]

Try quitting your job, not earning a paycheck - you will learn pretty quick what nature is telling you

Dude! I’m 75 years old. I’ve lived on the streets of big cities, on the beaches of Hawaii, in penthouses and in barrios. I’ve founded businesses, made and lost enough money to keep you alive for several lifetimes. You don’t get to tell me “what will happen” to me “if” ANYTHING. .
Btw, who are you to tell me what I am to my dog?

Another pompous ass is how you make it appear. They show up here to reveal the Truth every few weeks.
Sorry if I seem a little impatient with you, but IMO you’ve earned it.
Prove me wrong.

 

[Thomas II]