Are we no better than Dogs?

[Elixir]

Exactly. Humans didn’t “force” dogs to become pets, it was simply co-evolution and mutually beneficial. I’m not a big fan of humans, but I can imagine how much worse we might be without dogs around. I’m sure our co-evolution has altered both species significantly. One physical change among several, I might imagine: The eyes of wolves are slanted and seemingly threatening to humans. Dogs’ eyes are rounded and more human-like, surely under selective pressure because more human-like eyes are more appealing to humans.

I’m sure we all recall the Russian fox breeding program; it only took a few generations for the foxes’ morphology to change when bred for docility. Their ears went floppy, the eyes got rounder etc.
They basically started looking and acting like domestic canids. The amazing thing is how quickly they changed.

 

[Thomas II]

 

[bilby]

The eyes of wolves are slanted and seemingly threatening to humans. Dogs’ eyes are rounded and more human-like, surely under selective pressure because more human-like eyes are more appealing to humans.

Allow Stripe to demonstrate:

 

[DBT]

Mental hospitals are full of people who know what god tells them.

wow now I am a crazy person? nice
So plenty of religious people claim that God talked to them - that includes Jesus, Mohammed - they are mentally ill people?
I use the word God because that is how I can get thru to religious people - others I use Nature
Religious people believe that God made everything - well if he did, did he not also make the laws that we ALL follow? and by ALL, ALL life forms on earth & it is quite easy to see what these laws are
Religious people don't like what I am saying because it shows them as shameless freeloaders, parasites, thinking they can just sit and sponge off God & that is against what God intended
But in my view, they have free will - if a parasite is what they want to be, so be it

As for Mohammad, et al, some who find themselves in positions of power may come to believe the hype, and those that seek purpose or meaning are only too happy to provide it.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Try quitting your job, not earning a paycheck - you will learn pretty quick what nature is telling you

Dude! I’m 75 years old. I’ve lived on the streets of big cities, on the beaches of Hawaii, in penthouses and in barrios. I’ve founded businesses, made and lost enough money to keep you alive for several lifetimes. You don’t get to tell me “what will happen” to me “if” ANYTHING. .
Btw, who are you to tell me what I am to my dog?

Another pompous ass is how you make it appear. They show up here to reveal the Truth every few weeks.
Sorry if I seem a little impatient with you, but IMO you’ve earned it.
Prove me wrong.

Getting nasty, calling me names - I am not getting down to your level - I have class
You are taking this way too personally - these ideas are always in general - in general education is good - but plenty of people have had no education and have done well - that does not invalidate the idea
Same way - I am glad that you have done well, but if you had not - maybe an accident, a sickness which renders you unable to work, then you, as so many unfortunate people have experienced, get to live under a bridge
you think all homeless people are there because they didn't have brains? made bad choices?
There are no Sugar Daddies here on earth unless you are a willing Prostitute, yes-man, sycophant, crony, gigolo - then you get the easy good life
That is the concept of Heaven - God, the Sugar Daddy is happy to keep billions of shameless freeloaders in cozy comfort for eternity!
yay!
But God does not have to create an entire world for these shameless moochers - Resurrected/Reborn/Reincarnated as a lower life form - such as a Dog, a Cat, sheep, pig - or even a Mosquito, a tick - then you get the life that you want - the easy lazy life is yours
Enjoy!

 

[lostone]

Our pets evolved to live an unnatural life, because it made their lives a lot easier to let us feed them. A Sugar daddy. That's what we are to them. Of course, having a Sugar Daddy comes with a price, like it also does for women who make similar choices.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Exactly. Humans didn’t “force” dogs to become pets, it was simply co-evolution and mutually beneficial. I’m not a big fan of humans, but I can imagine how much worse we might be without dogs around. I’m sure our co-evolution has altered both species significantly. One physical change among several, I might imagine: The eyes of wolves are slanted and seemingly threatening to humans. Dogs’ eyes are rounded and more human-like, surely under selective pressure because more human-like eyes are more appealing to humans.

The dog embraced humans when we were living in caves - we threw them scraps of food, they stayed up nights and warned us of predators - that was how the relationship started. Today, they still warn us but the relationship has changed - now it is a dependent - unable to live in the wild if we are not there to feed, protect, shelter and care for it, unlike its wild cousins in Africa and Australia
We have changed them - Dogs vary so much in size and shape because WE made them that way
Bulldogs and other dogs with flat faces have breathing problems - you see them constantly gasping for air - but hey they are "cute" aren't they?
All about us, all about what WE want, who cares what they want?
"I can imagine how much worse we might be without dogs" Ah, the selfish view - how do I benefit? No need to ask the Dog whether THEY like the life we force them to live
.
plenty of dogs are mistreated by their owners - left out in the cold, barely fed - plenty of them in animal shelters to be killed after a while
The abuse that dogs take in animal breeding factories - but hey as long as you don't see it, it is not happening
.
Imagine a couple getting pregnant - they are going to have triplets! The joy! The blessed day arrives, they have 3 bundles of joy!
Then a family walks in, the little boy points to one of the babies and says - "this one daddy" And the family walks away with that child
Then another family and then another - the couple are now alone - their babies taken away from them!
That is what we DO to Dogs! Cats! We take their family away from them
WE want to live in families - wife, husband, kids, maybe even caring grandparents
But Dogs? Nah, they can live with us! No problem!
No need for THEM to have a family of their own, not even meet their own kind!
.
We use and exploit these pets - our "best friend" indeed!

 

[Elixir]

I have class

Really? You could use a bit more if you want to convince anyone other than yourself, unless all your class is of the low-middle variety.

Preaching tired shit at me about god delusions, the plight of man and shit I have likely known since before you were born … and about evolution, pets … ignorance isn’ “classy”.
But everything you say sounds good to you, right?

You and learner are a match made in heaven, if you’ll permit the metaphor.

I look forward to you teaching him something; nobody else has been able. Hats off to you if you can do it.

PS if humans disappeared tomorrow, canids would persist indefinitely. You’re delusional to think they’d die out. Sure, “pure breeds” would disappear real quick, but they’re all interfertile and would adapt very quickly, with their ~2 year generational cycle.

I enjoy our foxes and coyotes btw.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Our pets evolved to live an unnatural life, because it made their lives a lot easier to let us feed them. A Sugar daddy. That's what we are to them. Of course, having a Sugar Daddy comes with a price, like it also does for women who make similar choices.

Exactly but the point is being lost with people getting very emotional esp the religious people - so callous as to condemn entire families, women, children even babies to gas chambers in hell but upset if THEIR feelings are hurt
The Dog was just an example of a dependent - unable to live on their own, stand on their own feet, make a living like their wild cousins
Heaven is a place where freeloaders sponge off God - no one mentions any work being done, no one even asks!
Everyone expects God to be some sort of Sugar Daddy
My point is that God doesn't need to create a magic land for freeloaders to just sit and sponge off him - they can be reborn as our pets, get the easy good life they wanted and chose of their OWN FREE WILL!

 

[Ramaraksha]

ALL creatures on earth are supposed to stand on their own two legs

The vast majority of creatures on Earth do not have legs. Even amongst multicellular crestures, most live in water, and have zero legs. Amongst land-dwelling creatures with legs, six legs are more common than four, and four more common than two.

Oh God! Sir, it is an expression! It means that we must learn to fend for ourselves
As kids our parents did everything for us - solved all our problems
But once we leave the nest, we have to solve our problems by ourselves - landlord giving us a hard time? the shop owner cheating us? a co-worker who is nasty? We can't call our mommy and daddy and ask them to take care of these problems for us
WE, as adults need to
Can't believe you have not heard of this expression before. How old are you?

 

[Ramaraksha]

Wrong, see above

More later. I have not yet waded through all your misconceptions

The whole point is being missed - the Dog was just an example
Basically nature says once we are Adults we need to fend for ourselves - ALL Creatures on earth obey this law
We can agree or disagree on dogs, pigs, sheep - but that was not the point
The point was that Heaven is different - it seems God is some kind of Sugar Daddy keeping billions of lazy moochers, freeloaders in cozy comfort for eternity, which makes no sense!
Hinduism says Tat Tvam Asi - You Are That - basically saying you become what you are, what you choose to be
The choice of Christians and Muslims is to be a shameless dependent - damsels in distress looking for a savior to take them away from this harsh REAL WORLD and put them in a magic land where they get to sit and sponge off this savior for eternity
Well, that is not happening
What IS happening is that they are reborn/resurrected/reincarnated as a lower life form - a dependent life form - dog, cat, sheep, pig or even a Mosquito, a tick - leeches that live off others
IT IS NOT A PUNISHMENT - God or Nature is not punishing these people
Overcome by greed, brainwashed by religion, of their OWN FREE WILL they are choosing to be a Mosquito, a Tick

 

[DBT]

Our pets evolved to live an unnatural life, because it made their lives a lot easier to let us feed them. A Sugar daddy. That's what we are to them. Of course, having a Sugar Daddy comes with a price, like it also does for women who make similar choices.

Exactly but the point is being lost with people getting very emotional esp the religious people - so callous as to condemn entire families, women, children even babies to gas chambers in hell but upset if THEIR feelings are hurt
The Dog was just an example of a dependent - unable to live on their own, stand on their own feet, make a living like their wild cousins
Heaven is a place where freeloaders sponge off God - no one mentions any work being done, no one even asks!
Everyone expects God to be some sort of Sugar Daddy
My point is that God doesn't need to create a magic land for freeloaders to just sit and sponge off him - they can be reborn as our pets, get the easy good life they wanted and chose of their OWN FREE WILL!

The options are, fend for yourself or get taken care of. Fending for yourself is harder but getting taken care of may have a price, a cost to benefit ratio.....where, often, the path of least resistance is taken, whatever seems best.

 

[Ramaraksha]

I have class

Really? You could use a bit more if you want to convince anyone other than yourself, unless all your class is of the low-middle variety.

Preaching tired shit at me about god delusions, the plight of man and shit I have likely known since before you were born … and about evolution, pets … ignorance isn’ “classy”.
But everything you say sounds good to you, right?

You and learner are a match made in heaven, if you’ll permit the metaphor.

I look forward to you teaching him something; nobody else has been able. Hats off to you if you can do it.

PS if humans disappeared tomorrow, canids would persist indefinitely. You’re delusional to think they’d die out. Sure, “pure breeds” would disappear real quick, but they’re all interfertile and would adapt very quickly, with their ~2 year generational cycle.

I enjoy our foxes and coyotes btw.

Still sooo angry that you lose all perspective, still not going to get down to your level
I am not here to make friends nor enemies - I am writing my views of what will happen to people who fall for cheap religious promises
They think they are going to go to some magic land, sit and shamelessly sponge off God
amazing that not even one asks - why? What's in it for God? Why is God keeping shameless freeloaders in cozy comfort for eternity?
All that intelligence, education - all for nought
What Hinduism is saying is that if such a life is what one wants, one WILL get it
Such a freeloader life is here on earth!
I am sure you have heard of Occam's Razor - this is it
There is no need for God to create an entire magic land full of shameless moochers - all He has to do is change them!
Resurrected as our pets, mosquitoes, Ticks and other dependent life forms, they get the life that they chose of their OWN FREE WILL!
And I assume you are a Christian/Muslim? I think that explains your anger

 

[Ramaraksha]

Our pets evolved to live an unnatural life, because it made their lives a lot easier to let us feed them. A Sugar daddy. That's what we are to them. Of course, having a Sugar Daddy comes with a price, like it also does for women who make similar choices.

Exactly but the point is being lost with people getting very emotional esp the religious people - so callous as to condemn entire families, women, children even babies to gas chambers in hell but upset if THEIR feelings are hurt
The Dog was just an example of a dependent - unable to live on their own, stand on their own feet, make a living like their wild cousins
Heaven is a place where freeloaders sponge off God - no one mentions any work being done, no one even asks!
Everyone expects God to be some sort of Sugar Daddy
My point is that God doesn't need to create a magic land for freeloaders to just sit and sponge off him - they can be reborn as our pets, get the easy good life they wanted and chose of their OWN FREE WILL!

The options are, fend for yourself or get taken care of. Fending for yourself is harder but getting taken care of may have a price, a cost to benefit ratio.....where, often, the path of least resistance is taken, whatever seems best.

Yes - which is harder? Work hard, EARN what you desire,
OR
Beg, Steal, Find a Sugar Daddy and sponge off him/her?
Clearly the former is harder and so, so many choose the latter path which of course come with risks
That IS the lesson that nature or God has taught us
Guess which method we must use to get to Heaven? Yep, Beg away! And then God the Sugar Daddy will keep us cozy comfort for eternity!
Yay!
Well, such foolishness comes with a price

 

[Ramaraksha]

lol! Love it!
No wonder the Theists on this board are so angry and are resorting to profanity and abuse!
They thought they are going off to Sugar Daddy land, sit and sponge off God for eternity! yay!
Instead they end up as our Dogs! oops!
Love it!

 

[Ramaraksha]

lol fantastic! Love your cartoons!
Hopefully we can get thru to these brainwashed theists
THIS IS IT! There is only ONE WORLD, THIS ONE!
Their Heaven is here, Hell is here

 

[bilby]

The dog embraced humans when we were living in caves - we threw them scraps of food, they stayed up nights and warned us of predators - that was how the relationship started.

Are you sure? How do you know this to be true?

Most early humans never lived in caves; Cave remains are common because the caves preserve the archaeology, not because they were a particularly popular or common place to shelter.

Dogs were more likely adopted by early humans who found orphaned puppies and raised them because they are so cute. Adult wild canids would take far more work to domesticate than pups. Of course, likely doesn't imply true, but as the truth is lost to history, the smart money goes with the more likely hypothesis.

It sounds to me like someone told you a just-so story when you were young, and you have never really thought about challenging it in any way.

Young humans, like young canids, are far more impressionable than adults.

 

[bilby]

ALL creatures on earth are supposed to stand on their own two legs

The vast majority of creatures on Earth do not have legs. Even amongst multicellular crestures, most live in water, and have zero legs. Amongst land-dwelling creatures with legs, six legs are more common than four, and four more common than two.

Oh God! Sir, it is an expression! It means that we must learn to fend for ourselves

It's a hugely anthropocentric expression. In the context of the present discussion, such metaphors are ill-advised, if we care at all about clarity.

As kids our parents did everything for us - solved all our problems

LOL!!

But once we leave the nest, we have to solve our problems by ourselves - landlord giving us a hard time? the shop owner cheating us? a co-worker who is nasty? We can't call our mommy and daddy and ask them to take care of these problems for us
WE, as adults need to
Can't believe you have not heard of this expression before.

I can't believe that you believe I have not heard this expression before.

I object to its use in the current context, not because I don't understand it, but because I think it is very poor rhetoric, and steers us twoards an antropocentric perspective that I see causing major problems for your worldview more generally.

If you were to practice the avoidance of such metaphors, you might find yoirself more open to challenging some of your fundamental assumptions about reality.

How old are you?

54 years. You?

 

[bilby]

Basically nature says once we are Adults we need to fend for ourselves - ALL Creatures on earth obey this law

Nature says nothing. And there are no laws save those we make for ourselves - unless you count the "laws of physics", which are a rather different kind of law, and which cannot ever be disobeyed; And which don't say anything so specific about biology, ecology, or economics as you are suggesting.

 

[bilby]

The point was that Heaven is different - it seems God is some kind of Sugar Daddy keeping billions of lazy moochers, freeloaders in cozy comfort for eternity, which makes no sense!

Heaven is fiction. It doesn't have to make sense, it is whatever its author(s) want it to be.

God is a Sugar Daddy in the exact same way that Lex Luthor is a criminal - if you set out to arrest Mr Luthor, you belong in a secure psychiatric ward.