Here come the requisite right-wing attacks on “woke ideologues.” “Woke” is that all-purpose bogeyman that makes right-wing snowflakes cringe and seek a safe space.
No, because I don't want to be a god. I don't want control, nor do I relinquish my control to any other, not even Jehovah God, because Jehovah doesn't want his creation to come to him out of compulsion. My God doesn't want to control you and neither do I.
Here come the requisite right-wing attacks on “woke ideologues.” “Woke” is that all-purpose bogeyman that makes right-wing snowflakes cringe and seek a safe space.
No, because I don't want to be a god. I don't want control, nor do I relinquish my control to any other, not even Jehovah God, because Jehovah doesn't want his creation to come to him out of compulsion. My God doesn't want to control you and neither do I.
How do you a squishy brained human know what an all powerful god who created everything wants?
Does he post on the net or call you on a cell phone? Why not, after all he spoke trough a burning bush and he is 'god' right?
Or are you one of those stereotypical Medieval sycophants who is always explaining 'what the king means' to others?
Or do you just know what god wants. It just jumps into your head when you read the bible.
After all, everybody else gets it wring and oiu get it right.
So this is a church of one? I'd join you, but that would double your membership, and you'd need a second pew and a second hymnal. Say, what are your fellowship hours like, currently?
What you say contradicts the bible's definition of Love;
''Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.'' 1 Corinthians 13;
What you say contradicts the bible's definition of Love;
''Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.'' 1 Corinthians 13;
If you are arguing hatred has no place in the Bible as a whole though... I would disagree. In fact I'd even argue the Bible promotes a fake kind of love where it does promote "love" at all.
What you say contradicts the bible's definition of Love;
''Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.'' 1 Corinthians 13;
If you are arguing hatred has no place in the Bible as a whole though... I would disagree. In fact I'd even argue the Bible promotes a fake kind of love where it does promote "love" at all.
That's a good question. From the Biblical perspective it is applied to the faithful. It isn't unconditional. God hates the wicked. In the Bible there are several words for love and hate. An unrighteous hatred is the wishing for harm to anyone or anything. It consumes. I don't hate anyone or anything in that sense. There is also a righteous hatred which doesn't involve the unrighteous, of course, and means you simply don't want to have anything to do with someone or something. I pretty much hate everyone and everything in that sense.
What you say contradicts the bible's definition of Love;
''Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.'' 1 Corinthians 13;
That is a sort of knee-jerk response. I think one of the reasons why I find these sorts of discussions impossible is that they tend to be chaotic - imbalanced. Logic and reason aren't appreciated in response to the sort of emotional baggage accompanied by ideological criticism. Love, the skeptic argues, isn't Christian because Christianity is hatful so demonstrate the hate by pointing out the hypocrisy without a thought of the obvious hypocrisy that very process involves. I hate Christianity because it is so hateful.
This is achieved by projection. You're a Christian, you're supposed to behave this way, see? It says it in your good book. What I say is love is love. I hate your love or your love isn't my love.
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. (NIV; compare translations)
Of course, hatred has a place there. Maybe you see it subjectively through a lens that is unfairly critical of theism in general, because it's an ideology you dislike. In order to be objective, you always have to be fair and honest; not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts. That objectivity, by the way, is the antithesis of love, but let's muddle through this anyway.
Context: Paul is talking about the early Christian congregation in Corinth. It's very important to keep in mind whenever reading the Bible. Moses wasn't telling us not to eat shellfish, he was telling the Israelites thousands of years ago. Paul is talking to the first century Christian congregation in Corinth. Not the Egyptians, not the Americans, not the modern-day Corinthians. At verses 1-3 he talks about elements specific to his audience. Speaking in tongues, prophecy, knowledge, faith. He says that love always trusts, hopes, preserves. But then in verse 8 he says prophecies, tongue, knowledge will cease. Pass away. There he is talking about gifts of the holy spirit, Jehovah God's active force, being only temporarily necessary to establish the Christian congregation as had been the case with the former, Jewish congregation. Those things would cease after the death of the apostles, when the congregation will have been established.
If all of those things are useless, to them at that time, without love, then is love useless afterwards? No. They are separate in that respect. So, holding modern-day Christians accountable to the Bible would be like Jude holding first century Christians accountable to what Adam was told or what was written on the scrolls by Moses or Ezra long before. As Jude points out, those former writings and the historical evidence left behind are only an example, not a mandate. Christians who behaved like those in Sodom weren't going to suffer the same literal punishment that had been dealt to the ancient people in Sodom and Gomorrah. (Jude 1:7)
Logic: You can't say that love is objective. That what you love and how you love does or should apply to everyone the same. If you love God, you hate wickedness. If you love wickedness, you hate God. If you love patience, you hate impatience. If you love your child and spouse, you hate anything that would harm them.
Nevertheless, under certain conditions and at certain times it is proper to hate. “There is . . . a time to love and a time to hate.” (Ec 3:1, 8) Even of Jehovah it is said that he hated Esau. (Mal 1:2, 3) But this cannot be attributed to any arbitrariness on God’s part. Esau proved himself unworthy of Jehovah’s love by despising his birthright and selling it and hence also the divine promises and blessings attached thereto. Moreover, he purposed to kill his brother Jacob. (Ge 25:32-34; 27:41-43; Heb 12:14-16) God also hates lofty eyes, a false tongue, hands that are shedding innocent blood, a heart fabricating hurtful schemes, feet that are in a hurry to run to badness, a false witness, anyone sending forth contentions among brothers, in fact, everyone and everything standing in complete opposition to Jehovah and his righteous laws.—Pr 6:16-19; De 16:22; Isa 61:8; Zec 8:17; Mal 2:16. (Source)
In true loyalty to Jehovah, his servants hate what and whom he hates. (2Ch 19:2) “Do I not hate those who are intensely hating you, O Jehovah, and do I not feel a loathing for those revolting against you? With a complete hatred I do hate them. They have become to me real enemies.” (Ps 139:21, 22) But this hate does not seek to inflict injury on others and is not synonymous with spite or malice. Rather, it finds expression in its utter abhorrence of what is wicked, avoiding what is bad and those intensely hating Jehovah. (Ro 12:9, 17, 19) Christians rightly hate those who are confirmed enemies of God, such as the Devil and his demons, as well as men who have deliberately and knowingly taken their stand against Jehovah.
While Christians have no love for those who turn the undeserved kindness of God into an excuse for loose conduct, they do not hate persons who become involved in wrongdoing but who are worthy of being shown mercy. Instead of hating the repentant wrongdoer, they hate the wicked act, yes, “even the inner garment that has been stained by the flesh.”—Jude 4, 23. (Source)
That's a good question. From the Biblical perspective it is applied to the faithful. It isn't unconditional. God hates the wicked. In the Bible there are several words for love and hate. An unrighteous hatred is the wishing for harm to anyone or anything. It consumes. I don't hate anyone or anything in that sense. There is also a righteous hatred which doesn't involve the unrighteous, of course, and means you simply don't want to have anything to do with someone or something. I pretty much hate everyone and everything in that sense.
What you say contradicts the bible's definition of Love;
''Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.'' 1 Corinthians 13;
That is a sort of knee-jerk response. I think one of the reasons why I find these sorts of discussions impossible is that they tend to be chaotic - imbalanced. Logic and reason aren't appreciated in response to the sort of emotional baggage accompanied by ideological criticism. Love, the skeptic argues, isn't Christian because Christianity is hatful so demonstrate the hate by pointing out the hypocrisy without a thought of the obvious hypocrisy that very process involves. I hate Christianity because it is so hateful.
This is achieved by projection. You're a Christian, you're supposed to behave this way, see? It says it in your good book. What I say is love is love. I hate your love or your love isn't my love.
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. (NIV; compare translations)
Of course, hatred has a place there. Maybe you see it subjectively through a lens that is unfairly critical of theism in general, because it's an ideology you dislike. In order to be objective, you always have to be fair and honest; not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts. That objectivity, by the way, is the antithesis of love, but let's muddle through this anyway.
Context: Paul is talking about the early Christian congregation in Corinth. It's very important to keep in mind whenever reading the Bible. Moses wasn't telling us not to eat shellfish, he was telling the Israelites thousands of years ago. Paul is talking to the first century Christian congregation in Corinth. Not the Egyptians, not the Americans, not the modern-day Corinthians. At verses 1-3 he talks about elements specific to his audience. Speaking in tongues, prophecy, knowledge, faith. He says that love always trusts, hopes, preserves. But then in verse 8 he says prophecies, tongue, knowledge will cease. Pass away. There he is talking about gifts of the holy spirit, Jehovah God's active force, being only temporarily necessary to establish the Christian congregation as had been the case with the former, Jewish congregation. Those things would cease after the death of the apostles, when the congregation will have been established.
If all of those things are useless, to them at that time, without love, then is love useless afterwards? No. They are separate in that respect. So, holding modern-day Christians accountable to the Bible would be like Jude holding first century Christians accountable to what Adam was told or what was written on the scrolls by Moses or Ezra long before. As Jude points out, those former writings and the historical evidence left behind are only an example, not a mandate. Christians who behaved like those in Sodom weren't going to suffer the same literal punishment that had been dealt to the ancient people in Sodom and Gomorrah. (Jude 1:7)
Logic: You can't say that love is objective. That what you love and how you love does or should apply to everyone the same. If you love God, you hate wickedness. If you love wickedness, you hate God. If you love patience, you hate impatience. If you love your child and spouse, you hate anything that would harm them.
Nevertheless, under certain conditions and at certain times it is proper to hate. “There is . . . a time to love and a time to hate.” (Ec 3:1, 8) Even of Jehovah it is said that he hated Esau. (Mal 1:2, 3) But this cannot be attributed to any arbitrariness on God’s part. Esau proved himself unworthy of Jehovah’s love by despising his birthright and selling it and hence also the divine promises and blessings attached thereto. Moreover, he purposed to kill his brother Jacob. (Ge 25:32-34; 27:41-43; Heb 12:14-16) God also hates lofty eyes, a false tongue, hands that are shedding innocent blood, a heart fabricating hurtful schemes, feet that are in a hurry to run to badness, a false witness, anyone sending forth contentions among brothers, in fact, everyone and everything standing in complete opposition to Jehovah and his righteous laws.—Pr 6:16-19; De 16:22; Isa 61:8; Zec 8:17; Mal 2:16. (Source)
In true loyalty to Jehovah, his servants hate what and whom he hates. (2Ch 19:2) “Do I not hate those who are intensely hating you, O Jehovah, and do I not feel a loathing for those revolting against you? With a complete hatred I do hate them. They have become to me real enemies.” (Ps 139:21, 22) But this hate does not seek to inflict injury on others and is not synonymous with spite or malice. Rather, it finds expression in its utter abhorrence of what is wicked, avoiding what is bad and those intensely hating Jehovah. (Ro 12:9, 17, 19) Christians rightly hate those who are confirmed enemies of God, such as the Devil and his demons, as well as men who have deliberately and knowingly taken their stand against Jehovah.
While Christians have no love for those who turn the undeserved kindness of God into an excuse for loose conduct, they do not hate persons who become involved in wrongdoing but who are worthy of being shown mercy. Instead of hating the repentant wrongdoer, they hate the wicked act, yes, “even the inner garment that has been stained by the flesh.”—Jude 4, 23. (Source)
A clear and concise description/definition of Love is given;
''Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.'' 1 Corinthians 13.
Yet practically all of the terms and conditions are broken elsewhere in the bible. Worse still, we have God Himself acting contrary to everything that is described about the nature of love, condemnation, cruelty, creating evil, etc....which is the very opposite of love.
A clear and concise description/definition of Love is given;
''Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.'' 1 Corinthians 13.
Yet practically all of the terms and conditions are broken elsewhere in the bible. Worse still, we have God Himself acting contrary to everything that is described about the nature of love, condemnation, cruelty, creating evil, etc....which is the very opposite of love.
A clear and concise description/definition of Love is given;
''Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.'' 1 Corinthians 13.
Yet practically all of the terms and conditions are broken elsewhere in the bible. Worse still, we have God Himself acting contrary to everything that is described about the nature of love, condemnation, cruelty, creating evil, etc....which is the very opposite of love.
A clear and concise description/definition of Love is given;
''Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.'' 1 Corinthians 13.
Yet practically all of the terms and conditions are broken elsewhere in the bible. Worse still, we have God Himself acting contrary to everything that is described about the nature of love, condemnation, cruelty, creating evil, etc....which is the very opposite of love.
The Christian God is petty and intemperate, choosing mortals by the generation to favor with great love or abandon at a whim. As do all gods. They mean everything to us, but we are playthings to them.
Supposedly the Jews were His favored people, but first ten of the twelve Hebrew nations were abandoned, cast into slavery, exile, and death. Then he abandoned his Jews altogether, claimed Gentile Christians as his new inheritors, and now only favors them. The old favorites can either convert, or they can burn with all the rest, he owes no further loyalty to those he once promised everlasting faithfulness and charity.
Christians don't seem to realize that the favor of the gods waxes and wanes. They glibly ignore Jesus' teachings on everything from love itself to social and economic policy, even worship tv stars and their own bank accounts, confident that Jesus' blood alone, occasionally consumed on Sundays when there isn't a game on, will keep them "saved" no matter how much they otherwise offend the Lord of Hosts.
But if God has forgotten the love he once had for the blood of doves, lambs, and fine heifers, who is to say that this new covenant will last any longer, that his son's blood will retain any more of its flavor? Jesus is important to us, after all, but to a god, all mortals are a passing concern, even those they sire. The world was once full of such half-gods, say the Greeks, but the efforts and favor of those heroes didn't stop Greece from becoming as tiny and irrelevant a nation as is Israel.
Yes, I do. But why should I tell you? You don't care. You just can't stand it that people are allowed to believe what you say isn't real anyway? Wah! God isn't love. God doesn't love people who fuck goats in the ass or kill babies when they fuck the humans they want to fuck! Trump is Satan! He's trying to ruin democracy? Democracy, love and God is what I say they are. Boo-hoo.
Yes, I do. But why should I tell you? You don't care. You just can't stand it that people are allowed to believe what you say isn't real anyway? Wah! God isn't love. God doesn't love people who fuck goats in the ass or kill babies when they fuck the humans they want to fuck! Trump is Satan! He's trying to ruin democracy? Democracy, love and God is what I say they are. Boo-hoo.
Another boorish, childish tantrum in response to a reasonable question. Contrary to your claim above, I, and I would guess every atheist here, fully support religious freedom around the world.
I'll say it again. Context. There are four words in that Bible that mean love. What does it mean that God is love? Which love? Love to who? Why isn't God love, because God isn't 1 Corinthians chapter 13. The Bible says God exists? Does he? The Bible says God is love? Is he? The Bible says a snake talked, did it? The Bible says that the witch of Endor summoned the "spirit" of Samuel, the Bible says Samuel had died, that God and Sameul refused to talk to Saul prior to that, that summoning a spirit medium was a capital offence and that when we die, we aren't conscious of anything, we're worm food? But the Bible says it. Right there!
Uninformed Christians aren't the only ones misrepresenting the Bible in ignorance.
Another boorish, childish tantrum in response to a reasonable question. Contrary to your claim above, I, and I would guess every atheist here, fully support religious freedom around the world.
But they are our creation, we are not theirs, correct? We are playthings to them or they are playthings to us? Sauron was a liar, he forged the rings of power, a spy for Melkor on Almaren; he followed Melkor to Middle-Earth. After escaping the war. Correct?
Then he abandoned his Jews altogether, claimed Gentile Christians as his new inheritors, and now only favors them. The old favorites can either convert, or they can burn with all the rest, he owes no further loyalty to those he once promised everlasting faithfulness and charity.
This doesn't make sense. Atheists, who don't believe in gods, create gods who abandon them and people who are under the control of the atheists making this stuff up are abandoned?
Christians don't seem to realize that the favor of the gods waxes and wanes. They glibly ignore Jesus' teachings on everything from love itself to social and economic policy, even worship tv stars and their own bank accounts, confident that Jesus' blood alone, occasionally consumed on Sundays when there isn't a game on, will keep them "saved" no matter how much they otherwise offend the Lord of Hosts.
But if God has forgotten the love he once had for the blood of doves, lambs, and fine heifers, who is to say that this new covenant will last any longer, that his son's blood will retain any more of its flavor?
What makes you think he once had a love for blood? Anyway, if his son's blood is only temporary, let's say, 6,000 years, wouldn't it be worth it? What are the alternatives?
Jesus is important to us, after all, but to a god, all mortals are a passing concern, even those they sire. The world was once full of such half-gods, say the Greeks, but the efforts and favor of those heroes didn't stop Greece from becoming as tiny and irrelevant a nation as is Israel.
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
