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Roe v Wade is on deck

So Emily could outlaw goatees and it wouldn't qualify as authoritarianism as long as it was democratically enacted and the pro-goatee faction are allowed to make their case to the public and field opposition candidates in free elections.
You have some implicit assumptions in there - that democratically elected means that all voters are allowed to vote, that the pro-goatee faction are allowed to make there case anywhere in public for as long as they wish and that opposition candidates are chosen by the opposition. There are plenty of authoritarian governments that met your standards as written.
I think the "free" in "free elections" kind of covers those sorts of shenanigans. Western civ has been familiar with autocrats carefully maintaining a charade of democracy and rule-of-law at least since the time of Augustus Caesar.
 
So Emily could outlaw goatees and it wouldn't qualify as authoritarianism as long as it was democratically enacted and the pro-goatee faction are allowed to make their case to the public and field opposition candidates in free elections.
You have some implicit assumptions in there - that democratically elected means that all voters are allowed to vote, that the pro-goatee faction are allowed to make there case anywhere in public for as long as they wish and that opposition candidates are chosen by the opposition. There are plenty of authoritarian governments that met your standards as written.
I think the "free" in "free elections" kind of covers those sorts of shenanigans. Western civ has been familiar with autocrats carefully maintaining a charade of democracy and rule-of-law at least since the time of Augustus Caesar.
  Free_and_fair_election indicates that about half of current countries meet the standards of a free and fair election. Western civilization is familiar with sham elections from multitudes of experience.
 
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The problem here is that some fascist Nazi heels are arguing for a return to the laws of kings, and are actually using the days of kings to try to argue allowing it.
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They just want a king.
it looks like in this case you may have simply overlooked the critical word "increase". I was describing the derivative of the level of freedom, not the absolute level itself. Of course people are freer now than we were in the days of royal absolutism; I was in no way, shape or form arguing for a return to the laws of kings. Our culture well remembers how awful those times were; but many of us seem to have a collective amnesia about how very much worse the times that preceded them were.
 
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Emily has certainly favored the placement of an authority presiding over the legality of abortions.
The flaming cat entertainment medium can only by impressive contortion, be equated with the human medical procedure of abortion.
Abortionists, authoritarians … nice alliteration. The fact that the overwhelming majority of late term abortions are medically necessary is ignored. If I was an extremist I’d say that the kid is a person when it gets a social security number. But I am a rational moderate so I say the compromise is at live birth. Does that mean that a crazy person or few might try to convince a doctor to abort a viable healthy fetus that can be delivered without harm to the mother? Probably. Does that mean they’ll do it????
Probably not. If the doctors all refuse will the woman look for a willing non-doctor? Probably - she’s already known to be wack.
Will laws stop her???
Probably not - she’s wack!
Sorry, I’m used to counting saves, and this seems like a useless avenue, and one that has proven harmful.
 
This is a common misnomer, but bilby isn't in charge of Australia. He isn't even from there!

So it isn't technically "his country".
Sure it is. It's a local tradition that the country belongs to you, if you turn up from England and say "It's nice here, so it belongs to me now". The existing residents don't get to say "no".

;)
You misspelled "It sucks here -- looks like a good place to stash criminals". :devil:
 
I'm not asserting what you believe, I'm asserting what you literally said, and what the logical consequences of that are.
You absolutely ARE asserting that I believe something that I do not by asserting that <snip> is the logical consequence.
That's not how it works. People are not logic engines. It is entirely normal for people to believe premises but not believe conclusions that logically follow from their own premises. Sometimes that's rank inconsistency; sometimes it's just withholding judgment because they haven't yet worked out whether it's a logical consequence of their beliefs or not.

Consider the following two statements:

A: 12345678901 is a prime number.
B: 12345678901 is not a prime number.

One or the other of those is the logical consequence of a bunch of statements you undoubtedly believe. (For instance, statements like (X * (Y + 1)) = ((X * Y) + X)). And yet, unless you're some Ramanujan-level math prodigy, you almost certainly don't believe A and also don't believe B. If Emily figures out which statement is right and asserts that it's the logical consequence of your beliefs, she'll be perfectly correct, but she would not thereby be claiming you believe it. If she claimed you believe it she'd be wrong, until you work out the answer for yourself or ask someone you trust.

Point being, in this thread there've been an awful lot of attributions to misbehavior what can be better explained by insufficient reasoning. Let's all cut back on those attributions.
 
Emily has certainly favored the placement of an authority presiding over the legality of abortions.
Certainly: the same authority our society places over nearly everything in life, democracy. When the members of society have an unresolvable dispute and neither side can persuade the other, the general custom is to let the majority have their way and have the minority suck it up. It's a very practical custom -- counting noses is a pretty reliable rough-and-ready algorithm for figuring out in advance which side would win the fight if the people started killing one another over the dispute. Since the same side wins whether we fight it out or not, nobody has an incentive to start a civil war.

Point being, if nobody can prove he or she is right, Emily wins the argument by default. If you want us to decide this is one of those anomalous situations where the fringe minority should get their way and the majority should have to suck it up, you have burden-of-proof.

The flaming cat entertainment medium can only by impressive contortion, be equated with the human medical procedure of abortion.
:picardfacepalm: Oh for the love of god!

Nobody equated them. I brought up flaming cats specifically to critique bilby's whole "commitment to rule of law" and "hatred of freedom" have the "exact same meaning" schtick. It's the sort of poorly thought-through teenager idealism most people have grown out of by the time they graduate. When he wrote all those nutty posts bilby wasn't talking only about abortion, so I wasn't either when I criticized them. You do understand that policy arguments are allowed to have more than one-step chains of inference, don't you?
 
Certainly: the same authority our society places over nearly everything in life, democracy.
You misspelled “law enforcement”.
I must have missed where Ems suggested putting abortion to a vote, case by case.
 
if nobody can prove he or she is right, Emily wins the argument by default
Bullshit. In this venue, that which can be shown to cause the least harm wins the argument. I have provided empirical support. Ems has shown that B20 is her champion, that’s all.

Your bias, which you refuse to own, is stinking up this thread with allusion and distraction.
The facts remain: abortion laws kill people and benefit nobody (but lawyers).
 
I'm not asserting what you believe, I'm asserting what you literally said, and what the logical consequences of that are.
You absolutely ARE asserting that I believe something that I do not by asserting that <snip> is the logical consequence.
That's not how it works. People are not logic engines. It is entirely normal for people to believe premises but not believe conclusions that logically follow from their own premises. Sometimes that's rank inconsistency; sometimes it's just withholding judgment because they haven't yet worked out whether it's a logical consequence of their beliefs or not.

Consider the following two statements:

A: 12345678901 is a prime number.
B: 12345678901 is not a prime number.
How about we stop with analogies? Argument via analogy is just void. I can't defeat the proposition, so let me do a little creative rework.
Point being, in this thread there've been an awful lot of attributions to misbehavior what can be better explained by insufficient reasoning. Let's all cut back on those attributions.
You mean like when you attributed malice to the Democrats for keeping abortion from being passed as a right in Congress because they felt it was better for them in the voter booth? That sort of misbehavior attribution?
 
I'm not asserting what you believe, I'm asserting what you literally said, and what the logical consequences of that are.
You absolutely ARE asserting that I believe something that I do not by asserting that <snip> is the logical consequence.
That's not how it works. People are not logic engines. It is entirely normal for people to believe premises but not believe conclusions that logically follow from their own premises. Sometimes that's rank inconsistency; sometimes it's just withholding judgment because they haven't yet worked out whether it's a logical consequence of their beliefs or not.

Consider the following two statements:

A: 12345678901 is a prime number.
B: 12345678901 is not a prime number.
How about we stop with analogies? Argument via analogy is just void. I can't defeat the proposition, so let me do a little creative rework.
Point being, in this thread there've been an awful lot of attributions to misbehavior what can be better explained by insufficient reasoning. Let's all cut back on those attributions.
You mean like when you attributed malice to the Democrats for keeping abortion from being passed as a right in Congress because they felt it was better for them in the voter booth? That sort of misbehavior attribution?
Both parties keep abortion and immigration alive because it’s a red meat issue for their bases. To their great credit, a bill was set to pass that would have helped with immigration until Cheatolinni cracked down and his party obeyed even before elections. I have no reasons that believe the same would not happen if Roe were set to be codified in the Constitution. When reasonable people are in charge, the issues are not so great. There is a lot more live and let live. When it is the lunatics—and these days, that means GOP—in charge, everything is a crisis and if it isn’t a crisis then a crisis will be manufactured out of spare parts. It is essential that there is a serious crisis at all times so that people don’t get so bored that they… read books or something.
 
Do you get dizzy from that spinning?
There's no spinning, LD. Legislation is involved because we, as a society (albeit local) are making the decision to grant exceptions to what would otherwise be deemed murder. Whether or not an action that deprives someone of their life is considered to be murder is a legal decision.
Requesting assisted suicide is one thing. Having the request granted is another.
That's slippery language. But hey, if you want to go with this technicality, I think everyone should be allowed to request an abortion at any time for any reasons.

I just don't think they should necessarily be granted an abortion in the third trimester unless there's a very good medical reason for it.
With requested suicicde, I think it should be speciality with extensive training in psychology, psychiatry and medicine.
Do you think there should be some hoops that requestors of assisted suicide need to jump through? Do you think they should have to have a full psych eval, for example? Or perhaps they need to try certain other types of therapies and treatments first, and assisted suicide be granted only as a last resort?
 
Emily, in some states, it is now forbidden for medical personnel to remove a dead fetus until the mother is in sepsis or passes the dead fetus because they call it abortion. More commonly, a fetus that is dying and causing the mother serious medical danger cannot be a used as long as there is a detectable heartbeat —even if it is clear that fetal demise is imminent and the mother is also in danger. Women have died in these circumstances. It they are only women so..
Yes, Toni, I am fully aware of the idiotic laws in place in several states right now. The existence of those idiotic laws is a large part of why I am advocating for federal legislation that would supersede those laws.

Just because stupid laws currently exist doesn't mean that the best solution is to eliminate all laws. That's a very right-wing argument to make - it's very much a parallel to people who argue that we should deregulate everything, because some regulations are dumb.
 
Whether or not an action that deprives someone of their life is considered to be murder is a legal decision.
Whether or not performing an abortion deprives anyone of anything has still to be answered.
It is dishonest to presume your opinion to be fact.
 
What I personally believe is that there likely exists a circumstance where the scenario you so broadly described would in fact be the better choice.
Can you describe a hypothetical circumstance in which you think it would be ethical and appropriate to terminate a healthy third trimester fetus that presents no known health risk to the mother? I'm not asking for hard data, I'll be content with a ferinstance.
And that it is not MY choice or YOUR choice to decide. Nor is it lawmakers' choice to decide nor law enforcement's choice to make.
But it *is* the lawmaker's decision to make when it pertains to euthanasia, is it not? Providing guidelines for when it is allowable or defensible to deprive someone of life seems like a reasonable thing for lawmakers to do.
I don’t think it should be the law maker’s decision re: euthanasia. I’m not certain it is in every state.
Do you think that any person should be able to request medically assisted suicide for any reason? Or do you think it should be allowable only in certain situations?

Here's the thing that keeps getting conflated in this thread - it keeps getting framed as being "the lawmaker's decision" when in actuality, it's the doctor's decision, and the lawmaker is only setting the boundary conditions within which the doctor can make the decision.

And those boundary conditions exist because the lawmaker is literally defining an allowable exception to what would otherwise be considered murder.
I do think that a person should be allowed to request a medically assisted suicide. But I also think that a thorough examination by mental health professionals is in order first, as well as thorough examinations and serious discussions about why suicide is requested and if the patient might not benefit sufficiently from other, less permanent t treatment. Those in intractable pain is one such example. For myself, dementia would be an example under which I’d prefer assisted suicide for myself, having watched my mother die of dementia. I don’t want that for myself or for any family or loved ones to have to go through watching me die like that.

I feel like we're working toward common ground on this. I'm reading this as a "should". That is, patients are allowed to request any service they wish, but doctors should provide thorough exams, have discussions about alternatives, and ensure the person isn't making a bad decision.

Do you think there should be repercussions for doctors who do NOT follow those "shoulds"? In the (unlikely) event that a healthy person going through a divorce walks in the door and says "Hey doc, I'd like to call it quits", and the doctor says "Sure thing, let me just inject you with this"... do you think that doctor should face some sort of negative consequence for failing to provide the exams and discussions that you believe are reasonable and appropriate?
 

f tx
Awesome. But it's a half-measure. NY ought to expand its shield law, making it a criminal offense in NY to attempt to enforce out-of-state abortion laws in NY against people for actions they took in NY. The statutory penalty should be whatever the penalty the perpetrator tried to inflict was. So the next time Paxton and Landry try this stunt they'll personally face $113,000 fines if they ever set foot in NY.
Or... and hear me out... we could all advocate for reasonable federal level laws that would preclude all of this entirely!
 
a divorce walks in the door and says "Hey doc, I'd like to call it quits", and the doctor says "Sure thing, let me just inject you with this"...
Where do you keep finding these corrupt doctors? If your lifevis populated by people like that, no laws are going to mitigate your misery.
There are nurses who have been found to have killed dozens or hundreds of people who never wanted to be killed. Why not campaign for more legal oversight of nurses? Because laws already exist, proving ONCE AGAIN that

YOU CAN’T LEGISLATE DESPICABLE BEHAVIOR BY DESPICABLE PEOPLE OUT OF EXISTENCE.

IMHO the prevention track record is better for shaming than for jailing. Psychos gonna psycho no matter what. I don’t think we should build our society around them.
 
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