"Children cannot consent to puberty blockers" and being in the wrong body

[Jarhyn]

@bilby
What about Genderbread Person v4

What about it? I give not shit the first. Not a poster here, isn't available to cross-examine, haven't read, haven't watched, don't care, strongly advise you not to either.

Well this thread is about Billboard Chris and he was the one that talked about it to transgender supporters. Maybe a lot of transgender supporters reject its Gender Identity section but there seems to some respect for it (perhaps misguided respect).

No, this thread is about the title claim. Billboard Chris is PART of that topic because he is ONE of the few who made that claim, but anything actively orbiting that title is going to be captured.

Imagine that little Dick Winkle, age 10, says "I want to grow up as a boy."

Nobody is breaking down doors or arresting parents nor saying Chris doesn't have the capacity to consent to that decision.

Now with "Christine Muff", they say "I want to grow up as a girl."

Again, nobody says Christine can't say that. They don't treat her as incapable of rendering consent for it. They don't bat an eye.

That is, ultimately, what the title of this thread says it is about: whether kids can consent to such things.

My assertion is that if little Dick can consent to being a boy, and little Christine can consent to being a girl, of nobody bats an eye when they express their goals, then it is, at the very least, reasonable to assume someone can consent to either delay or choose the other thing.

The only people I see having any major issue with this are those who felt like they were tricked into accepting something they discovered later that they did not want.

In the same way as those bitter over student loan forgiveness they never saw, however, it will inevitably feel less shitty when you treat it like it cannot be a choice for everyone. The world feels more tolerable and fair, after all, when other people get fucked over, too. There is bitterness and resent overflowing for those who freely access that which others fought all your life for and perhaps were denied.

 

[Jarhyn]

I think largely this whole thing is driven by people who regret the betrayal of the promise of their own bodies. At least that's how my uncle puts it; "this is not what was promised".

Nobody was telling him how to feel in the bad old days other than "be a man", @excreationist.

It isn't confusion, and the minute someone says that, the very second, "confusion", it's immediately obvious who is really confused.

The solution to confusion over others is not disregard, it is empathy.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Leave the kids alone. When they're old enough to decide if they want to through X process then it'll be their right to make the decision.

Biology won't leave them alone. Puberty blockers are actually the closest we can come to leave alone.

Finally, why are these young people not encouraged to accept who they are rather than going through a procedure they can never undo?

Puberty blockers can be undone. You're the one trying to force them into something that can't be undone.

And it's not "accept who you are", but "force you to conform." Same as gay conversion "therapy", the outcomes are bad.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The issue here is the careful placement of several ideas so very close together that the observer, from a distance, thinks all the lines cross at the same point and has a hard time telling which line continues from which line.

Exactly. You mix truth and deception, changing the meaning without presenting anything clearly false.

Abortion is the clearest example: There are a huge number of arguments based on proving "human" as in of human origin and then switching it to "a human" as in a person. It's still "human" and never goes against the definition of the word, but the meaning is utterly changed.

When you're looking at an argument you need to be very aware of such switches and if you find one figure they are probably being deceptive. And if it's a hot button issue you should be very much on the watch for such things.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Anything you disagree with so far? I can't answer your question as I don't know what you mean when you say "wrong body." Bodies are neither right nor wrong, they just are what they are.

Apparently being in the wrong body is the justification for transitioning children, sometimes against their parents will. i.e. it involves making their body match their “gender identity”.

Please show me ONE SINGLE verifiable instance of a doctor performing gender affirming surgery on a minor. Just ONE. Show me ONE SINGLE verifiable instance of a doctor prescribing puberty blockers or gender affirming hormones to a minor without a parent/guardians knowledge. I'll wait.

I think there has been a bit of surgery on people in their later teens who have lived most of their life as their gender of choice.

 

[excreationist]

People who can't stand the way their brain functions on one hormone and who can stand how their brain functions on another hormone should switch hormones. That's what we are saying.

Say there was a biological female. In what way could her brain have a problem with female hormones? Could it be making her brain feel too feminine?

 

[excreationist]

@bilby
What about Genderbread Person v4

What about it? I give not shit the first. Not a poster here, isn't available to cross-examine, haven't read, haven't watched, don't care, strongly advise you not to either.

Well this thread is about Billboard Chris and he was the one that talked about it to transgender supporters. Maybe a lot of transgender supporters reject its Gender Identity section but there seems to some respect for it (perhaps misguided respect).

No, this thread is about the title claim. Billboard Chris is PART of that topic because he is ONE of the few who made that claim, but anything actively orbiting that title is going to be captured.

Well multiple times I also talked about other things related to Billboard Chris such as the Genderbread person, his UN speech, his website, and his other videos, etc.
Also my first words in the thread are "This is about a guy called "Billboard Chris"".

 

[Jarhyn]

People who can't stand the way their brain functions on one hormone and who can stand how their brain functions on another hormone should switch hormones. That's what we are saying.

Say there was a biological female. In what way could her brain have a problem with female hormones? Could it be making her brain feel too feminine?

Full stop, there is no such thing as "biological female" in the way you are trying to evoke.

Instead of this thinking of people as an A or a B, you MUST start thinking of them at the very least as an assembly of parts.

Every brain has detectors for hormones, and every detector sets off a simar set of signals.

You could liken it to having a tongue or nose inside your brain that smells smells from inside your blood. These are how you perceive hormones, kind of.

But the brain, when it "smells" this, the "smell" "wakes something up", and it starts a visceral reaction, like how hunger drives you to think about food.

But while either detector is there, it's apparently like a jankedy piece of software, where half the content is missing or outright wrong or undeveloped for the unplanned hormones from the brain's blueprint of the thing: while the brain can "smell" either, there are other parts that aren't so flexible as to actually handle either "smell" reaction very well.

The result is that some people end up wired to get smell A released in their brain, but to not actually be compatible with smelling smell A all the time, and instead having a taste for smell B.

 

[Jarhyn]

Also my first words in the thread are "This is about a guy called "Billboard Chris"".

No, they were ""Children cannot consent to puberty blockers" and being in the wrong body"

 

[excreationist]

People who can't stand the way their brain functions on one hormone and who can stand how their brain functions on another hormone should switch hormones. That's what we are saying.

Say there was a biological female. In what way could her brain have a problem with female hormones? Could it be making her brain feel too feminine?

Full stop, there is no such thing as "biological female" in the way you are trying to evoke.

Say I am a straight male and I prefer regular females - i.e. not transexuals especially those with a penis. What words would I use to describe the kind of female I prefer?

 

[bilby]

People who can't stand the way their brain functions on one hormone and who can stand how their brain functions on another hormone should switch hormones. That's what we are saying.

Say there was a biological female. In what way could her brain have a problem with female hormones? Could it be making her brain feel too feminine?

Full stop, there is no such thing as "biological female" in the way you are trying to evoke.

Say I am a straight male and I prefer regular females - i.e. not transexuals especially those with a penis. What words would I use to describe the kind of female I prefer?

You don't prefer "regular* females"; You prefer partners to whom you are attracted.

It would be strange indeed if you found every "regular female", regardless of attitude, age, behaviour, body shape, interests, facial features, religious position, and race, exactly equally attractive.

Possession (or not) of a penis and/or testicles might be a non-issue, or a complete showstopper; But it's very unlikely to be the only complete showstopper, so why obsess about it?

I note you haven't asked "Say I am a straight male and I prefer younger females - i.e. not over forty, especially those over sixty. What words would I use to describe the kind of female I prefer?"; And you haven't asked "Say I am an atheist male and I prefer atheist females - i.e. not theists especially those who are Muslims. What words would I use to describe the kind of female I prefer?" - Why not?







* Assuming that by "regular" you mean "normal, commonplace, or typical", and not "frequent and/or evenly spaced out over time". Many people like regular sex, even those who like regular irregular sex.

 

[excreationist]

Say I am a straight male and I prefer regular females - i.e. not transexuals especially those with a penis. What words would I use to describe the kind of female I prefer?

You don't prefer "regular* females"; You prefer partners to whom you are attracted.

It would be strange indeed if you found every "regular female", regardless of attitude, age, behaviour, body shape, interests, facial features, religious position, and race, exactly equally attractive.

I was trying to give an example where the term "biological female" could come in handy. @Jarhyn is saying "there is no such thing as "biological female" in the way you are trying to evoke". Maybe there is a term that describes what I'm talking about... or some phrase.

 

[bilby]

Say I am a straight male and I prefer regular females - i.e. not transexuals especially those with a penis. What words would I use to describe the kind of female I prefer?

You don't prefer "regular* females"; You prefer partners to whom you are attracted.

It would be strange indeed if you found every "regular female", regardless of attitude, age, behaviour, body shape, interests, facial features, religious position, and race, exactly equally attractive.

I was trying to give an example where the term "biological female" could come in handy. @Jarhyn is saying "there is no such thing as "biological female" in the way you are trying to evoke". Maybe there is a term that describes what I'm talking about... or some phrase.

The opposite of trans- is cis-, so if you are talking about only those women who are not transwomen, then you are talking about ciswomen.

 

[excreationist]

I was trying to give an example where the term "biological female" could come in handy. @Jarhyn is saying "there is no such thing as "biological female" in the way you are trying to evoke". Maybe there is a term that describes what I'm talking about... or some phrase.

The opposite of trans- is cis-, so if you are talking about only those women who are not transwomen, then you are talking about ciswomen.

I was looking at post #288 and talking about people who were born female. They might be wanting to become trans after birth so I'm not sure they could be called cisfemale...

 

[Arctish]

I was trying to give an example where the term "biological female" could come in handy. @Jarhyn is saying "there is no such thing as "biological female" in the way you are trying to evoke". Maybe there is a term that describes what I'm talking about... or some phrase.

The opposite of trans- is cis-, so if you are talking about only those women who are not transwomen, then you are talking about ciswomen.

I was looking at post #288 and talking about people who were born female. They might be wanting to become trans after birth so I'm not sure they could be called cisfemale...

Then you mean you have a preference for cis-gendered females, those who have female sex traits and female gender.

I'm attracted to cis-gendered males, but I wouldn't rule out a relationship with a Two Spirits or intersex male. The female body doesn't spark any sexual interest in me even though I can appreciate the physical beauty of some women.

 

[Jarhyn]

I was trying to give an example where the term "biological female" could come in handy. @Jarhyn is saying "there is no such thing as "biological female" in the way you are trying to evoke". Maybe there is a term that describes what I'm talking about... or some phrase.

The opposite of trans- is cis-, so if you are talking about only those women who are not transwomen, then you are talking about ciswomen.

I was looking at post #288 and talking about people who were born female. They might be wanting to become trans after birth so I'm not sure they could be called cisfemale...

Again your post makes very little, if any, sense.

Nobody "becomes" trans except through the processes that made them, usually long before birth.

It's not a decision. It's not a meme. It is a medical condition, for all part of the biological matter involved is the brain, and sometimes people subscribe to a meme that they know handles their specific condition well.

The whole point is that nobody is "born female", they are "born as themselves", and sometimes that means "born with an incompatibility between their gonads and brain".

Unless you are performing medical care which requires rough or loose descriptions of conditions and processes... or contemplating getting a third wheel and/or cuckstool... it's entirely irrelevant.

You call a person who expresses they are a woman "she" and "her" according to her preference. Sometimes you call them by their name. You don't call them anything else unless they offer something else to call them. You don't try to "figure them out", you let them tell their own story.

You keep trying to ask about people who are born with a clear vagina, uterus, and ovaries, what you should call them, but the fact is, they tell you all the time in big signs at any protest you might see: trans women are "women".

In short, if you want to know what to call someone, ask them, and don't bring up trans shit unless they offer it, and even then it's like talking about racism with a black person; it's gonna be awkward and they don't want to be thinking about that in the middle of a party, Zen; if you want to talk to Mo about anything, talk about Final Fantasy, not the nonstop experience he has with an unkind world filled with horrible people.

 

[excreationist]

The whole point is that nobody is "born female", they are "born as themselves", and sometimes that means "born with an incompatibility between their gonads and brain".

What if they had no genetic abnormalities (related to gender, etc) and it said "female" on their birth certificate?

 

[Jarhyn]

The whole point is that nobody is "born female", they are "born as themselves", and sometimes that means "born with an incompatibility between their gonads and brain".

What if they had no genetic abnormalities (related to gender, etc) and it said "female" on their birth certificate?

And as we keep saying, it's not that simple. Even lacking any genetic "abnormality", which is itself a problematic term, the brain will end up however it ends up.

The whole point here is that it's just not all that healthy to make some absolute declaration about categorical attraction.

I am not Chris. I do not generally speculate wildly about how others handle things.

All I know is that I have an adverse reaction to testosterone; this indicates that others may have an adverse reaction to estrogen.

I can only imagine of @Loren Pechtel were put on an estrogen regimen, Loren would not appreciate the effects much.

I can only imagine that if @Toni were put on testosterone, she, too would be very unhappy with the result.

I cannot communicate to someone who does not have any experience or memory of their life before hormones or the self-awareness to differentiate the signals that come from the hormones, what that difference is. It varies a lot from person to person.

Why do some people like chocolate ice cream and some people hate it?

Sometimes that's just who we are.

 

[Toni]

The whole point is that nobody is "born female", they are "born as themselves", and sometimes that means "born with an incompatibility between their gonads and brain".

What if they had no genetic abnormalities (related to gender, etc) and it said "female" on their birth certificate?

And as we keep saying, it's not that simple. Even lacking any genetic "abnormality", which is itself a problematic term, the brain will end up however it ends up.

The whole point here is that it's just not all that healthy to make some absolute declaration about categorical attraction.

I am not Chris. I do not generally speculate wildly about how others handle things.

All I know is that I have an adverse reaction to testosterone; this indicates that others may have an adverse reaction to estrogen.

I can only imagine of @Loren Pechtel were put on an estrogen regimen, Loren would not appreciate the effects much.

I can only imagine that if @Toni were put on testosterone, she, too would be very unhappy with the result.

I cannot communicate to someone who does not have any experience or memory of their life before hormones or the self-awareness to differentiate the signals that come from the hormones, what that difference is. It varies a lot from person to person.

Why do some people like chocolate ice cream and some people hate it?

Sometimes that's just who we are.

Post menopausal. I'm not that thrilled with the testosterone I have on board now.

I will say that years ago, when I was on birth control pills, that was really a great balance, hormonally speaking. I also liked HRT.

 

[Jarhyn]

The whole point is that nobody is "born female", they are "born as themselves", and sometimes that means "born with an incompatibility between their gonads and brain".

What if they had no genetic abnormalities (related to gender, etc) and it said "female" on their birth certificate?

And as we keep saying, it's not that simple. Even lacking any genetic "abnormality", which is itself a problematic term, the brain will end up however it ends up.

The whole point here is that it's just not all that healthy to make some absolute declaration about categorical attraction.

I am not Chris. I do not generally speculate wildly about how others handle things.

All I know is that I have an adverse reaction to testosterone; this indicates that others may have an adverse reaction to estrogen.

I can only imagine of @Loren Pechtel were put on an estrogen regimen, Loren would not appreciate the effects much.

I can only imagine that if @Toni were put on testosterone, she, too would be very unhappy with the result.

I cannot communicate to someone who does not have any experience or memory of their life before hormones or the self-awareness to differentiate the signals that come from the hormones, what that difference is. It varies a lot from person to person.

Why do some people like chocolate ice cream and some people hate it?

Sometimes that's just who we are.

Post menopausal. I'm not that thrilled with the testosterone I have on board now.

I will say that years ago, when I was on birth control pills, that was really a great balance, hormonally speaking. I also liked HRT.

Which is quite my point. Sorry about pinging you for an example. You just strike me as someone willing to listen to others and their own bodies and be honest about what they hear and how they relate to it.