"Children cannot consent to puberty blockers" and being in the wrong body

[bilby]

I guess the bit about being binary is incorrect

Sex is binary in all anisogamous species. That includes all mammals, all birds, and the overwhelming majority of vertebrates.

Sex is defined based on the type or reproductive system that an individual develops. This stems from the fact that within species that reproduce sexually, there are only two types of gametes. Large sessile gametes are eggs, small motile gametes are sperm. Sexual reproduction occurs when two differently sized gametes merge and exchange DNA to create offspring.

Anisogamy developed a few hundred million years ago in our evolutionary lineage. Part of that evolutionary process also led to individuals within each species evolving reproductive systems that support the production of those two types of gametes. Across all species - including a lot of plants, we can observe two types of reproductive systems, although the formation of those systems differs from one species to another. The commonality is in the function of those systems. Within any given species, the set of individuals who have the system that has evolved to support the production and delivery of small motile gametes are called males. Those who have the system that evolved to support the production of large sessile gametes are called females. Note that the definition is dependent on the type of system that the individual develops, and which function that system evolved in concert with. It does not require that the individuals actually produce any gametes at all, nor does it require that the entire system is present and functional. Thus a prepubertal female is still female, even though she doesn't yet release mature eggs. And a male who has lost his testes through accident, illness, or intent is still a male even though he can no longer produce sperm.

For sex to be something other than binary, there would need to be an evolved reproductive system that supports the production of a different type of gamete. To date, there is no other type of gamete among humans - only sperm and eggs. Thus, sex in humans is strictly binary.

All of which is true in general, but not in specific cases.

If you say that humans are bipeds, and so have two legs, that is true in general. But it does not imply that someone who claims to have only one leg is lying, mistaken, or wrong.

Sex in humans is binary. Humans have two legs. Humans have five digits on each hand. All facts. All indisputable and backed by both observation and our best current theories of human development. And all untrue for a small but non-zero number of individuals.

Exceptions exist. If there are two developmental paths, then that immediately implies at least four outcomes: A, B, AB, and 0. Nobody is daft enough to declare that people of blood type AB don't exist - even though they are very rarely encountered (and mostly you wouldn't know you had encountered one unless they decided to tell you). Yet you are here insisting that people who are both male and female, or who are neither male nor female, do not and cannot possibly exist. Which is absurd. And is based on the misapplication of a general rule, assuming (incorrectly) that because that rule applies in the majority of cases, it must apply to every single specific case.

Six fingered men exist, despite the strong evolutionary pressure against their existence due to their being hunted down and killed by Inigo Montoya.

 

[excreationist]

I guess the bit about being binary is incorrect

Sex is binary in all anisogamous species. That includes all mammals, all birds, and the overwhelming majority of vertebrates.

Sex is defined based on the type or reproductive system that an individual develops. This stems from the fact that within species that reproduce sexually, there are only two types of gametes. Large sessile gametes are eggs, small motile gametes are sperm. Sexual reproduction occurs when two differently sized gametes merge and exchange DNA to create offspring.

Potential autofertility in true hermaphrodites - PubMed

This article examines the studies on the pregnancies of true hermaphrodites and self-fertilization in hermaphrodite mammals that have been published in the last 40 years. The number of hermaphrodite pregnants reported in the literature since 1975 was 14, the number of pregnancies was 26 and the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Furthermore, the ovarian tissues of true hermaphrodites were mainly functional and ovulatory. The testicular tissues were mainly immature. However, spermatogenesis was determined in some cases. In fact, both ovulation and spermatogenesis were detected in some cases. All of these findings show that true hermaphrodites with ovarian and testicular tissues are potentially autofertile.

So they could have both... ?

 

[Politesse]

I guess the bit about being binary is incorrect

Sex is binary in all anisogamous species. That includes all mammals, all birds, and the overwhelming majority of vertebrates.

Sex is defined based on the type or reproductive system that an individual develops. This stems from the fact that within species that reproduce sexually, there are only two types of gametes. Large sessile gametes are eggs, small motile gametes are sperm. Sexual reproduction occurs when two differently sized gametes merge and exchange DNA to create offspring.

Anisogamy developed a few hundred million years ago in our evolutionary lineage. Part of that evolutionary process also led to individuals within each species evolving reproductive systems that support the production of those two types of gametes. Across all species - including a lot of plants, we can observe two types of reproductive systems, although the formation of those systems differs from one species to another. The commonality is in the function of those systems. Within any given species, the set of individuals who have the system that has evolved to support the production and delivery of small motile gametes are called males. Those who have the system that evolved to support the production of large sessile gametes are called females. Note that the definition is dependent on the type of system that the individual develops, and which function that system evolved in concert with. It does not require that the individuals actually produce any gametes at all, nor does it require that the entire system is present and functional. Thus a prepubertal female is still female, even though she doesn't yet release mature eggs. And a male who has lost his testes through accident, illness, or intent is still a male even though he can no longer produce sperm.

For sex to be something other than binary, there would need to be an evolved reproductive system that supports the production of a different type of gamete. To date, there is no other type of gamete among humans - only sperm and eggs. Thus, sex in humans is strictly binary.

Why is that a condition that would need to be met? Who says? You?

It's easy to set a "condition" that you think matches the evidence you already have, but that is not making a truly falsifiable hypothesis. It isn't science.

 

[Arctish]

I guess the bit about being binary is incorrect

Sex is binary in all anisogamous species. That includes all mammals, all birds, and the overwhelming majority of vertebrates.

Sex is defined based on the type or reproductive system that an individual develops. This stems from the fact that within species that reproduce sexually, there are only two types of gametes. Large sessile gametes are eggs, small motile gametes are sperm. Sexual reproduction occurs when two differently sized gametes merge and exchange DNA to create offspring.

Potential autofertility in true hermaphrodites - PubMed

This article examines the studies on the pregnancies of true hermaphrodites and self-fertilization in hermaphrodite mammals that have been published in the last 40 years. The number of hermaphrodite pregnants reported in the literature since 1975 was 14, the number of pregnancies was 26 and the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Furthermore, the ovarian tissues of true hermaphrodites were mainly functional and ovulatory. The testicular tissues were mainly immature. However, spermatogenesis was determined in some cases. In fact, both ovulation and spermatogenesis were detected in some cases. All of these findings show that true hermaphrodites with ovarian and testicular tissues are potentially autofertile.

So they could have both... ?

Yes.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

To add, here, I think the brain differentiation is far from dichotomous, and that there are probably a few different and distinct genomic and phenotypical expressions, not merely male and female.

When does biology ever do perfect binary divisions? AFIAK, never. The simpler the process the more it will exhibit two peaks, but nothing is 100%.

I gave my own niece and nephew this advice: just be you. You don't need to take a drug unless you dislike the noise in your head. Don't just dislike it because you think you need to; look at it and make your own decision.

That's how I see the world, also.

The fact is, we have for time immemorial watched kids get hormones thrust upon them entirely against anyone's will. That has incontrovertibly happened. We know what the hormones do, and we inferred their general existence some time ago, particularly with those born with testicles, but also "those born eunuchs", as has been noted even as of about 2000 years ago, likely far earlier; we inferred an effect of the tissue on body and mind arrested by its absence, and caused by its present.

Yup. As with so many cases, not making a decision is making a decision. People tend to err strongly on the side of "not making" the decision, allowing a worse outcome due to non-action. Hence the trolley problem.

3% of trans people have regrets, 4% for minors.

There are roughly 300000 trans youth in America, and 4% is about 12000.

Of that 12000, most desist from blockers and suffer no ill effects, and go on to slightly delayed puberty.

The question is, would 2000 people represent a big enough party to deny the overwhelming happiness of the remaining 298000? Especially since it was their own decision...

Exactly. Both choices cause harm, you should pick the one that causes the least harm.

Especially since your 3% number is actually bogus--most of those "regrets" are from adverse responses from their families, not actually with the change.

 

[Jarhyn]

To add, here, I think the brain differentiation is far from dichotomous, and that there are probably a few different and distinct genomic and phenotypical expressions, not merely male and female.

When does biology ever do perfect binary divisions? AFIAK, never. The simpler the process the more it will exhibit two peaks, but nothing is 100%.

I gave my own niece and nephew this advice: just be you. You don't need to take a drug unless you dislike the noise in your head. Don't just dislike it because you think you need to; look at it and make your own decision.

That's how I see the world, also.

The fact is, we have for time immemorial watched kids get hormones thrust upon them entirely against anyone's will. That has incontrovertibly happened. We know what the hormones do, and we inferred their general existence some time ago, particularly with those born with testicles, but also "those born eunuchs", as has been noted even as of about 2000 years ago, likely far earlier; we inferred an effect of the tissue on body and mind arrested by its absence, and caused by its present.

Yup. As with so many cases, not making a decision is making a decision. People tend to err strongly on the side of "not making" the decision, allowing a worse outcome due to non-action. Hence the trolley problem.

3% of trans people have regrets, 4% for minors.

There are roughly 300000 trans youth in America, and 4% is about 12000.

Of that 12000, most desist from blockers and suffer no ill effects, and go on to slightly delayed puberty.

The question is, would 2000 people represent a big enough party to deny the overwhelming happiness of the remaining 298000? Especially since it was their own decision...

Exactly. Both choices cause harm, you should pick the one that causes the least harm.

Especially since your 3% number is actually bogus--most of those "regrets" are from adverse responses from their families, not actually with the change.

I accept that the 3-4% numbers are largely adverse family events, however I'mgenerally going to err towards the regressive's most charitable case, especially when it is still damning to their case.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

@bilby
What about kindergartens that try and normalize the idea of people having pronouns that conflict with their biological sex? Should parents be allowed to prevent their kids from attending those classes?
see:

In Schools — Billboard Chris

www.billboardchris.com

If someone is old enough to make a consistent choice about what to be called in general I think society should respect that.

 

[Jarhyn]

@bilby
What about kindergartens that try and normalize the idea of people having pronouns that conflict with their biological sex? Should parents be allowed to prevent their kids from attending those classes?
see:

In Schools — Billboard Chris

www.billboardchris.com

If someone is old enough to make a consistent choice about what to be called in general I think society should respect that.

"Biological sex" there it is again, the reduction of all those neurological bits that were discussed by Sapolski to a facile model of genitals and gonads ALA 1960's highschool education.

People know, from an early age, who they want to be.

Yes, society should respect that.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You'd be best off to study a bit on manipulative media and how to tell when you are being manipulated by someone, instead of informed by them.

Note that most people are not good at this. You need to study deception techniques if you don't want to fall for them.

 

[excreationist]

@bilby
What about kindergartens that try and normalize the idea of people having pronouns that conflict with their biological sex? Should parents be allowed to prevent their kids from attending those classes?
see:

In Schools — Billboard Chris

www.billboardchris.com

If someone is old enough to make a consistent choice about what to be called in general I think society should respect that.

There is a difference between a boy who likes dressing in women's clothing, etc, who is told they're still a boy - or telling them that they therefore are actually a girl (based on female stereotypes). Or a "tomboy" girl (or "butch" lesbian) - who can be told they are actually a boy. The former options don't involve messing around with their hormones. Drag Queens can act like females without having to have a proper sex change. Though I guess people can have a sex change (etc) if they have to.

 

[bilby]

There is a difference between a boy who likes dressing in women's clothing, etc, who is told they're still a boy - or telling them that they therefore are actually a girl (based on female stereotypes). Or a "tomboy" girl - who can be told they are actually a boy. The former options don't involve messing around with their hormones.

What's all this "told" crap?

Loren said:

If someone is old enough to make a consistent choice about what to be called in general I think society should respect that.

Respecting a person's choice means not telling them that it is wrong, and not telling them what choice(s) to make.

There is not a difference between a boy who likes dressing in women's clothing, etc, who is asked whether they're still a boy - or asking them whether they therefore are actually a girl (based on female stereotypes). Or a "tomboy" girl - who can be asked whether they are actually a boy. These options don't involve messing around with their freedom to choose.

FTFY.

Children are their parents' responsibility. They are NOT their parents' property. They are certainly NOT the property of monomaniacal buttinskis like this pathetic "Billboard Chris" loser.

 

[excreationist]

There is a difference between a boy who likes dressing in women's clothing, etc, who is told they're still a boy - or telling them that they therefore are actually a girl (based on female stereotypes). Or a "tomboy" girl - who can be told they are actually a boy. The former options don't involve messing around with their hormones.

What's all this "told" crap?

It seems most people on this thread are basically "telling" others (like me) that people who don't fit the gender stereotype of their biological sex should change to a different gender that they fit the stereotype of better - at least some of the time. Maybe I don't get the point of the other people but they're basically "telling" certain people that it is possible that their "gender identity" doesn't match their biological sex, etc. Or they're from the same crowd as the people that are "telling" young people about these ideas.

BTW the "genderbread person" says that you can determine a person's "Gender Identity"

https://www.movingtraditions.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/genderbread-person-appendix-E.pdf

based on personality traits, jobs, hobbies, likes, dislikes, roles, expectations - basically based on stereotypes (I assume)

Those kinds of statements can influence people's beliefs - i.e. if a masculine tomboy "butch" lesbian hadn't had been exposed to those ideas she might just be fairly content with staying a female (or at least just put up with it). She might even use a strap-on which seems to involve acting as if you've got a literal penis - but still technically being female.

 

[bilby]

It seems most people on this thread are basically "telling" others (like me) that people who don't fit the gender stereotype of their biological sex should change to a different gender that they fit the stereotype of better - at least some of the time.

Wha?

Nobody's doing that.

people who don't fit the gender stereotype of their biological sex should do as they please, just like people who do fit the gender stereotype of their biological sex should.

As long as what they please doesn't entail bullying other people.

 

[excreationist]

@bilby
What about Genderbread Person v4

The Genderbread Person version 4 - ❤ It's Pronounced Metrosexual

For 2018 and beyond, my fourth take on this tasty little introduction to understanding gender.

www.itspronouncedmetrosexual.com

"Gender Identity" involves 2 parts Woman-ness and Man-ness based on:
"personality traits, jobs, hobbies, likes, dislikes, roles, expectations".

Those things would map onto those genders - I assume based on stereotypes of those genders.

From there, there is a desire for the gender identity you have to match the anatomic sex. I think there is some influence from our progressive culture for that. I've heard stories of some medical experts say things like "do you want a dead daughter or a living son?"
e.g.

‘Would you rather a dead daughter or a living son?’ debunked by Finnish study

Functionally, this appeal shuts down all public debate, stifles any pushback from parents, and places vulnerable youth on a conveyor belt towards risky hormone treatments and radical surgical interventions.

www.mercatornet.com

I'm not sure if that could be considered bullying though.

 

[Arctish]

It seems most people on this thread are basically "telling" others (like me) that people who don't fit the gender stereotype of their biological sex should change to a different gender that they fit the stereotype of better - at least some of the time.

Wha?

Nobody's doing that.

people who don't fit the gender stereotype of their biological sex should do as they please, just like people who do fit the gender stereotype of their biological sex should.

As long as what they please doesn't entail bullying other people.

I don't recall any posts telling people they should change in order to "fit" a stereotype. Most people around here reject stereotypes, especially the ones regarding gender roles.

 

[excreationist]

I don't recall any posts telling people they should change in order to "fit" a stereotype. Most people around here reject stereotypes, especially the ones regarding gender roles.

When someone is "transgender" how do they know? I mean if they are born a female and "feel" male what does that mean? Genderbread person v4 talks about Gender Identity relating to "personality traits, jobs, hobbies, likes, dislikes, roles, expectations". So maybe they feel about those things in ways that are seen as male-like? I mean if they like playing with cars and trains that seems like a hobby that might be seen as "man-ness" rather than "woman-ness". I mean that's the impression I get from the "Gender Identity" section. Maybe a lot of transgender supporters reject that but I'm focusing on Genderbread person v4 anyway. (Billboard Chris's idea)

 

[bilby]

@bilby
What about Genderbread Person v4

What about it? I give not shit the first. Not a poster here, isn't available to cross-examine, haven't read, haven't watched, don't care, strongly advise you not to either.

 

[excreationist]

@bilby
What about Genderbread Person v4

What about it? I give not shit the first. Not a poster here, isn't available to cross-examine, haven't read, haven't watched, don't care, strongly advise you not to either.

Well this thread is about Billboard Chris and he was the one that talked about it to transgender supporters. Maybe a lot of transgender supporters reject its Gender Identity section but there seems to some respect for it (perhaps misguided respect).

 

[Arctish]

I don't recall any posts telling people they should change in order to "fit" a stereotype. Most people around here reject stereotypes, especially the ones regarding gender roles.

When someone is "transgender" how do they know? I mean if they are born a female and "feel" male what does that mean? Genderbread person v4 talks about Gender Identity relating to "personality traits, jobs, hobbies, likes, dislikes, roles, expectations". So maybe they feel about those things in ways that are seen as male-like? I mean if they like playing with cars and trains that seems like a hobby that might be seen as "man-ness" rather than "woman-ness". I mean that's the impression I get from the "Gender Identity" section. Maybe a lot of transgender supporters reject that but I'm focusing on Genderbread person v4 anyway. (Billboard Chris's idea)

Basing your identity on what other people expect of you is practically guaranteed to result in frustration, either on your part or theirs.

There are a lot of cultural factors involved in gender roles in a society. Some societies only accept male and female as gender identities while others recognize Two Spirits and other gender expressions.

People are complex. Maybe the problem here is narrow-mindedness and sexism in our societies, not that people are actually confused about themselves as gendered or non-gendered persons.

 

[Jarhyn]

It seems most people on this thread are basically "telling" others (like me) that people who don't fit the gender stereotype of their biological sex should change to a different gender that they fit the stereotype of better

No, the only telling being done here is people telling you that Chris has issues and that you seem to be obsessed with gender, since you keep coming back here.

People who can't stand the way their brain functions on one hormone and who can stand how their brain functions on another hormone should switch hormones. That's what we are saying.

That you are perceiving this as "telling" is itself "telling". In psychology, people expressing that others told them something that others did not tell them, perceiving discussion or occasional ribbing as serious advice, is going to boil down to an identifiable form of projection in most situations.

This then does evolve into serious advice as soon as the ribbing exposes deeper seated issues.