Are people already regretting their choice?

[Jimmy Higgins]

The Magatards are slow learners. They are beginning to appreciate their idol cares only for himself.

At 42% approval rating, they don't appear to be learning yet.

 

[Elixir]

The Magatards are slow learners. They are beginning to appreciate their idol cares only for himself.

At 42% approval rating, they don't appear to be learning yet.

The threat of pain doesn’t faze them. But the actual pain will enrage them, and it’s coming later this year.
The question is - will Trump be able to convince his suckers that Dems caused the pain by opposing his brilliant economic plan?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The Magatards are slow learners. They are beginning to appreciate their idol cares only for himself.

At 42% approval rating, they don't appear to be learning yet.

The threat of pain doesn’t faze them. But the actual pain will enrage them, and it’s coming later this year.
The question is - will Trump be able to convince his suckers that Dems caused the pain by opposing his brilliant economic plan?

Right-wing economic policies have been hurting them for decades, but the right-wing has done well to get them more angry over gays and now transgenders.

 

[Elixir]

Right-wing economic policies have been hurting them for decades,

It’s a matter of scale. Sure, it’s been easy for MAGAts to dismiss minor aches and pains as results of democrats’ malfeasance. But this is going to cause many of them to lose their homes, their jobs, their savings … not just some vague feeling of economic unease that can be blamed on Biden, Hillary or Obama.
Not that they’re going to be the ones to show up with pitchforks, but I don’t think all of them are going to let him slide.
Whether they or anyone else can curtail the kleptocratic fascists is another question

 

[Swammerdami]

Manufacturing is also important to maintaining our reserve currency. ... And this isn't the fault of the rest of the world they simply have our dollars that we foolishly print profusely and don't have anything else to buy from the US because services are not easily exportable.

In 2023, U.S. exports of services reached $1.0266 trillion, up from $926 billion in 2022. This represented 30.7% of overall U.S. exports in 2022. U.S. services exports exceeded imports, resulting in a services surplus. Key sectors include telecommunications, computer services, financial services, and other business services.

That's $1.0266 Trillion. With a T.

@RVonse -- You seem unconcerned about the obvious moves toward fascism -- arresting Judges, harassing U.S. citizens for anti-fascist social media posts, stripping mentions of black and female heroes from government webpages, etc. Instead you focus on Trump's economic plan.

Fine. Whatever. Let's speak about Trump's economic plans.

Recently he said that he expected that Tariffs might eliminate the need for Income Taxes altogether! Let's do some arithmetic. In 2024 The U.S. imported $4.1T (that's the TOTAL, and NOT just the net deficit). In that same year total federal income tax was $2.8T -- this total does NOT include state income taxes.

To get $2.8T in revenue from $4.1T in imports, the tariff rate would have to be 68%. In what fantasy land would the U.S. continue to import $4.1T worth of goods and services if the total price paid, with the tariff, was $6.9T? And remember that on Tuesdays and Thursdays Trump tells us the purpose of the tariffs is to REDUCE imports. (On Mondays and Wednesdays he pretends that the imports will continue at the old level. On Fridays and weekends he plays golf.)

Do you see the problem, RVonse? Can you explain to us how Trump's arithmetic works?

Yes, we understand that Trump's lies, sarcasm and hyperbole are part of his appeal. But shouldn't there be SOME tiny element of validity to his economic "program"?

 

[crazyfingers]

Manufacturing is also important to maintaining our reserve currency. ... And this isn't the fault of the rest of the world they simply have our dollars that we foolishly print profusely and don't have anything else to buy from the US because services are not easily exportable.

In 2023, U.S. exports of services reached $1.0266 trillion, up from $926 billion in 2022. This represented 30.7% of overall U.S. exports in 2022. U.S. services exports exceeded imports, resulting in a services surplus. Key sectors include telecommunications, computer services, financial services, and other business services.

That's $1.0266 Trillion. With a T.

@RVonse -- You seem unconcerned about the obvious moves toward fascism -- arresting Judges, harassing U.S. citizens for anti-fascist social media posts, stripping mentions of black and female heroes from government webpages, etc. Instead you focus on Trump's economic plan.

Fine. Whatever. Let's speak about Trump's economic plans.

Recently he said that he expected that Tariffs might eliminate the need for Income Taxes altogether! Let's do some arithmetic. In 2024 The U.S. imported $4.1T (that's the TOTAL, and NOT just the net deficit). In that same year total federal income tax was $2.8T -- this total does NOT include state income taxes.

To get $2.8T in revenue from $4.1T in imports, the tariff rate would have to be 68%. In what fantasy land would the U.S. continue to import $4.1T worth of goods and services if the total price paid, with the tariff, was $6.9T? And remember that on Tuesdays and Thursdays Trump tells us the purpose of the tariffs is to REDUCE imports. (On Mondays and Wednesdays he pretends that the imports will continue at the old level. On Fridays and weekends he plays golf.)

Do you see the problem, RVonse? Can you explain to us how Trump's arithmetic works?

Yes, we understand that Trump's lies, sarcasm and hyperbole are part of his appeal. But shouldn't there be SOME tiny element of validity to his economic "program"?

Self-described conservative economist explains why Trump is full of shit

Opinion | I’m a Conservative Economist. Here Are 6 Reasons Trump’s Plans Won’t Work.

...

As a right-of-center economist who has spent nearly 25 years producing research that warns against the dangers of unrestrained federal spending and debt, I am concerned that Republicans are dramatically over-promising and under-delivering. It’s not an issue of left-versus-right. Rather, Trump is offering policies and promises that — even on their own terms — don’t make any sense. The president’s vision cannot successfully produce fiscal responsibility or economic prosperity because nearly every statement and action contradicts each other. And ultimately, it is American families and businesses who will suffer from this fog of policy confusion.

Here’s the truth about some of the president’s promises.

...

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2025/04/28/trump-economic-plans-reality-check-00309673

 

[unapologetic]

Our debt was not the problem Rump claims it is.

 

[RVonse]

Our debt was not the problem Rump claims it is.

Federal Surplus or Deficit [-]

Graph and download economic data for Federal Surplus or Deficit [-] (FYFSD) from 1901 to 2024 about budget, federal, and USA.

fred.stlouisfed.org

Looking at the actual data, we can easily see everything was normal until August 15, 1971 when Richard Nixon completely abandoned the gold standard and effectively put the US dollar in default of the Bretton Woods agreement. And the US has been downhill ever since, all one has to do is look at our own data. We should be able to agree the average of this graph not only trends downward, but in a severe downward hockey stick pattern. It is this hockey stick pattern which should be especially troubling to all US citizens IMHO. Because a hockey stick pattern of runaway debt represents a sure fire death spiral that will cause a currency crises if not addressed.

And our trade imbalance is equally troubling. Not manufacturing our own goods for long periods while printing money to purchase China goods resulted in huge trade imbalances. It is exactly how we have given away our country. We print dollars for the stuff they make and then they use those same dollars to buy our American assets and land. There are many like Ray Dalio who feel the US has incurred far too much debt and needs to produce more. Ray Dalio's 3 rules of thumb For Life, 1) Don't have debt rise faster than income (because debt burdens will eventually crush you). 2)Don't have income rise faster than productivity — it will eventually render you uncompetitive. 3)Do all you can to raise productivity — in the long run that's what matters most.

So your video does explain debt pretty well but fails to address the present state the US is actually in right now. They mention debt should be measured by dividing by GNP but then conveniently fail to mention the US is not only over 60% but even over 100% GNP right now! Laughing Dog will tell you that the US was also briefly over 100% right after WW2 but that was right after serious war spending when we still had robust manufacturing ability which is definitely not where we are at today. We should be under 60% or less.

The problem is actually WORSE than Rump claims it is! His whole business career has been centered around debt so he has become used to the risk that excess debt offers. But Trump has also let debt take him into bankruptcy several times and I for one would prefer he not lead my country down this same path.

If even Trump thinks there is a problem, you can rest assured there no question there is a huge problem. He is certainly not the only one saying this.

But no matter your political leanings, I ask this again. Do you just want to sit around and die? If the Democrats want to convert MAGA from Trump back to their side and start winning elections they should just admit there is a real problem and forget about their do nothing everything is alright spin. They should formulate their own solution, and campaign on it because many of these MAGA supporters were Democrats before they foolishly abandoned them.

 

[laughing dog]

Our debt was not the problem Rump claims it is.

Federal Surplus or Deficit [-]

Graph and download economic data for Federal Surplus or Deficit [-] (FYFSD) from 1901 to 2024 about budget, federal, and USA.

fred.stlouisfed.org

Looking at the actual data, we can easily see everything was normal until August 15, 1971 when Richard Nixon completely abandoned the gold standard and effectively put the US dollar in default of the Bretton Woods agreement. And the US has been downhill ever since, all one has to do is look at our own data. We should be able to agree the average of this graph not only trends downward, but in a severe downward hockey stick pattern. It is this hockey stick pattern which should be especially troubling to all US citizens IMHO. Because a hockey stick pattern of runaway debt represents a sure fire death spiral that will cause a currency crises if not addressed.

And our trade imbalance is equally troubling. Not manufacturing our own goods for long periods while printing money to purchase China goods resulted in huge trade imbalances. It is exactly how we have given away our country. We print dollars for the stuff they make and then they use those same dollars to buy our American assets and land. There are many like Ray Dalio who feel the US has incurred far too much debt and needs to produce more. Ray Dalio's 3 rules of thumb For Life, 1) Don't have debt rise faster than income (because debt burdens will eventually crush you). 2)Don't have income rise faster than productivity — it will eventually render you uncompetitive. 3)Do all you can to raise productivity — in the long run that's what matters most.

So your video does explain debt pretty well but fails to address the present state the US is actually in right now. They mention debt should be measured by dividing by GNP but then conveniently fail to mention the US is not only over 60% but even over 100% GNP right now! Laughing Dog will tell you that the US was also briefly over 100% right after WW2 but that was right after serious war spending when we still had robust manufacturing ability which is definitely not where we are at today. We should be under 60% or less.

The problem is actually WORSE than Rump claims it is! His whole business career has been centered around debt so he has become used to the risk that excess debt offers. But Trump has also let debt take him into bankruptcy several times and I for one would prefer he not lead my country down this same path.

And yet you voted for him twice even though he has no track record of fiscal responsibility. During his first term, he worsened the US debt position. And he is on track this term to make it even worse with dramatically reduced revenues and marginally reduced spending (a charitable interpretation).

Really, you position is incoherent. You rant about the dangers of gov't indebtedness but support the candidate and policies that exacerbate the very problem you are concerned about.

 

[pood]

Our debt was not the problem Rump claims it is.

Federal Surplus or Deficit [-]

Graph and download economic data for Federal Surplus or Deficit [-] (FYFSD) from 1901 to 2024 about budget, federal, and USA.

fred.stlouisfed.org

Looking at the actual data, we can easily see everything was normal until August 15, 1971 when Richard Nixon completely abandoned the gold standard and effectively put the US dollar in default of the Bretton Woods agreement.

How does the data you posted support your claim that it has been “downhill ever since” Nixon completely abandoned the gold standard (initially domestically abandoned by FDR in 1933, with good reason)?

There are many like Ray Dalio who feel the US has incurred far too much debt and needs to produce more.

You do realize Dalio has said Trump’s tariffs could prove catastrophic and is wholly against them?

 

[pood]

Trump tariffs crushing small businesses.

I wonder how many of those people voted for him?

 

[pood]

Tariffs screwing big business, too. U.S. may see first-quarter contraction in GDP.

Nice job your boy Trump is doing, RVonse,

 

[scombrid]

The Magatards are slow learners. They are beginning to appreciate their idol cares only for himself.

At 42% approval rating, they don't appear to be learning yet.

The threat of pain doesn’t faze them. But the actual pain will enrage them, and it’s coming later this year.
The question is - will Trump be able to convince his suckers that Dems caused the pain by opposing his brilliant economic plan?

It will still be the fault of the queers and immigrants and wimin and other assorted browns. But mostly the queers and immigrants. A former friend of mine is a boomer age immigrant from Cuba. He is cheering because Biden imported millions of illegal voters to steel the 2020 election and Trump is getting rid of all of those leaches. Still cheering. Our Mexican friend who we haven't abandoned yet (who is a legal permanent resident, who is a women that had a baby with donor sperm as a single mother because she turned 40 without a man, because she is an engineer for General Electric) still supports Trump because he is getting rid of the leech illegal immigrants and because she has and Archie Bunker view of gender identity. She supports discriminating against gays and trans because they are just rebelling against her Mexican Catholic God. Never mind her life long use of birth control and bastard son or how he was conceived. Trump is protecting traditional values. Goddamnit Maggie? Why? You are a loving mother and a good friend; why do you also have to be an asshole?

 

[pood]

U.S. trade deficit hits record; Wall Street banks predict GDP contraction.

Brilliant job by the Drooling Orange Buffoon!

 

[pood]

Looks like a paywall now; wasn’t for me when I linked it.

 

[Elixir]

It will still be the fault of the queers and immigrants and wimin and other assorted browns.

I think @marc estimated that as much as 27% ish of the total electorate might be like that - saturated in trumputinist propaganda, and I feel like that's probably close.
Obviously if that is all the support Cheato gets down to, he's dead meat.
But realistically, it means he only needs another 23% of the electorate, or 31.5% of the thinking electorate, to support him and remain Emperor.
That's approximately the percentage of people who emphatically stick with their original choice if offered a Monty Hall problem, iirc.
We may be well and truly fucked.

 

[laughing dog]

U.S. trade deficit hits record; Wall Street banks predict GDP contraction.

Brilliant job by the Drooling Orange Buffoon!

Contracting GDP is a sure fire method of reducing a trade deficit. It is a pretty costly one, but it generally works.

 

[Swammerdami]

And yet you voted for him twice even though he has no track record of fiscal responsibility. During his first term, he worsened the US debt position. And he is on track this term to make it even worse with dramatically reduced revenues
and marginally reduced spending (a charitable interpretation). Really, you position is incoherent.

RVonse picks and chooses ideas and "facts" to match the narrative he derived from watching Jimmy Dore or gold-bug ads on YouTube. Although he picks and chooses sentence by sentence, as a metaphor I've picked and chosen letters from your post to spell out "Trump is a genius."

RVonse is not wrong to claim that mounting federal debt, and the high trade deficit are problems. (And IIRC both Paul Krugman and Warren Buffet have told us they regard the trade deficit as a bigger problem than the federal budget deficit.) He is smart enough to know that printing paper money -- "useful as money BECAUSE it is worthless" -- is not a panacea for mounting debt no matter how many zeroes you have on your printing press. (Was that your opinion in the recent sub-debate, laughing dog? All I remember is that you didn't know the difference between fiat money and bank-created money.)

Under Ronald Reagan the US. quickly went from being the largest net creditor nation in the world to the largest net debtor. The U.S. had a slight trade SURPLUS in 1975, but the trade deficit rose sharply under Reagan and then skyrocketed viciously under Bush-43. Yet despite all this the U.S. has retained its status as the world's financial and economic superpower, a genuine idol. Until the fascist regime took over, visas to study or work in the USA were coveted all around the globe.

Where RVonse goes wrong is in his inability to grasp cause-effect relationships, and his obsession with right-wing memes. He ignores, or pretends not to know, that the U.S. still has enormous prosperity. One thing that separates the U.S. from the happier countries of Europe is income and wealth inequality. Yet RVonse advocates tariffs, which are a highly regressive form of taxation. I guess "regressive taxation" and "political correlates of prosperity" just are not memes discussed by Jimmy Dore or the One America News Network or wherever RVonse gets his ideas.

You rant about the dangers of gov't indebtedness but support the candidate and policies that exacerbate the very problem you are concerned about.

True dat.

 

[laughing dog]

And yet you voted for him twice even though he has no track record of fiscal responsibility. During his first term, he worsened the US debt position. And he is on track this term to make it even worse with dramatically reduced revenues
and marginally reduced spending (a charitable interpretation). Really, you position is incoherent.

RVonse picks and chooses ideas and "facts" to match the narrative he derived from watching Jimmy Dore or gold-bug ads on YouTube. Although he picks and chooses sentence by sentence, as a metaphor I've picked and chosen letters from your post to spell out "Trump is a genius."

RVonse is not wrong to claim that mounting federal debt, and the high trade deficit are problems. (And IIRC both Paul Krugman and Warren Buffet have told us they regard the trade deficit as a bigger problem than the federal budget deficit.) He is smart enough to know that printing paper money -- "useful as money BECAUSE it is worthless" -- is not a panacea for mounting debt no matter how many zeroes you have on your printing press. (Was that your opinion in the recent sub-debate, laughing dog? All I remember is that you didn't know the difference between fiat money and bank-created money.)

Your cherry-picking is excellent depiction of the foundation of the supporters of Trumponomics .

Your memory is a bit faulty - bank money is a form of fiat money. Bank money is not gov't money but both are fiat money.

Under Ronald Reagan the US. quickly went from being the largest net creditor nation in the world to the largest net debtor. The U.S. had a slight trade SURPLUS in 1975, but the trade deficit rose sharply under Reagan and then skyrocketed viciously under Bush-43. Yet despite all this the U.S. has retained its status as the world's financial and economic superpower, a genuine idol. Until the fascist regime took over, visas to study or work in the USA were coveted all around the globe.

The US economy is still one of the most productive and largest economies in the world. Add in the inertia embedded into an global monetary system, and the US remains a financial superpower. No country stays on top forever, so it is inevitable the US will lose its standing. That is not necessarily a bad thing. Unless there is some cataclysmic event (an asteroid or destructive war hitting North America), it is likely to be a gradual process.

 

[Swammerdami]

And yet you voted for him twice even though he has no track record of fiscal responsibility. During his first term, he worsened the US debt position. And he is on track this term to make it even worse with dramatically reduced revenues
and marginally reduced spending (a charitable interpretation). Really, you position is incoherent.

RVonse picks and chooses ideas and "facts" to match the narrative he derived from watching Jimmy Dore or gold-bug ads on YouTube. Although he picks and chooses sentence by sentence, as a metaphor I've picked and chosen letters from your post to spell out "Trump is a genius."

RVonse is not wrong to claim that mounting federal debt, and the high trade deficit are problems. (And IIRC both Paul Krugman and Warren Buffet have told us they regard the trade deficit as a bigger problem than the federal budget deficit.) He is smart enough to know that printing paper money -- "useful as money BECAUSE it is worthless" -- is not a panacea for mounting debt no matter how many zeroes you have on your printing press. (Was that your opinion in the recent sub-debate, laughing dog? All I remember is that you didn't know the difference between fiat money and bank-created money.)

Your cherry-picking is excellent depiction of the foundation of the supporters of Trumponomics .

What specific "cherry-picking" are you accusing me of? I've reddened two sentences which RVonse has right. Of course it's foolish for him to embrace "Trumponomics" but it's understandable that he will reject some "progressive" thinking if he's debating against a devil-may-care "debt doesn't matter" ideology.

Many young liberals have become advocates of MMT and it seems they have been joined here by some who debate RVonse. Judging by ACTIONS, it is Democrats who are the practical fiscal conservatives, but the left-right roles are almost reversed when we listen to some of their RHETORIC.

Your memory is a bit faulty - bank money is a form of fiat money. Bank money is not gov't money but both are fiat money.

We're left to guess exactly what this semantic distinction signifies to you. BUT it appears that you and your "fiat money is limitless" debating ally have embraced some form of "Modern Monetary Theory." Although the precepts of MMT are not wholly wrong; it is NOT a mainstream view and espousing it here will surely confound our efforts to educate Mr. RVonse.

New Keynesian economist and recipient of the Nobel Prize in Economics, Paul Krugman, asserted MMT goes too far in its support for government budget deficits, and ignores the inflationary implications of maintaining budget deficits when the economy is growing.Krugman accused MMT devotees as engaging in "calvinball" – a game from the comic strip Calvin and Hobbes in which the players change the rules at whim. Austrian School economist Robert P. Murphy stated that MMT is "dead wrong" and that "the MMT worldview doesn't live up to its promises."

Under Ronald Reagan the US. quickly went from being the largest net creditor nation in the world to the largest net debtor. The U.S. had a slight trade SURPLUS in 1975, but the trade deficit rose sharply under Reagan and then skyrocketed viciously under Bush-43. Yet despite all this the U.S. has retained its status as the world's financial and economic superpower, a genuine idol. Until the fascist regime took over, visas to study or work in the USA were coveted all around the globe.