Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel restricts access to Gaza.

Gazans are still holding kidnapped victims. They launched a missile barrage last month.

They keep the conflict going and pretend that the damage done to their human shields is the fault of Israel.
This is true and you know it.
Tom

Starving the populace to get hostages returned is not working. There is no reason to think it will work. Blaming Hamas for Israel’s choices in an attempt to hide the brutality of Israel’s pointless tactics is ironic virtue signalling.

BTW, Israel broke the ceasefire, which means they are keeping the violence going this time.

What should matter most at this point is that there is pointless suffering that is needlessly happening... and all over a perverse intention to harm. We know Hamas are reprehensible. That doesn't make it right.

So what should be done to free Gaza of Hamas?

While the world is figuring out how to achieve that impossible dream,, are you fine with the current policy of withholding food and medical supplies, so that more children are suffering from acute malnutrition?

You aren't addressing the point at all, merely regurgitating Hamas propaganda. If there really were that many in distress why are there no pictures? And why kids? Do the parents not care enough about their children?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

While the world is figuring out how to achieve that impossible dream,, are you fine with the current policy of withholding food and medical supplies, so that more children are suffering from acute malnutrition?

In the meantime,
Can you explain your plan for rescuing Gazans Who Don't Matter from the ones who do? I don't see one.
Tom

At the end of this "meantime", there will be no innocents left to rescue innocent civilians, so no plan will be necessary. Of course, that is ethnic cleansing, if not outright genocide, but you seem fine with it.

Nope.
As long as you and the international community keep blaming Israel for defending itself and handwaving the real problem Gazans have, it's just going to get worse.

Withholding food and medical supplies is not defending oneself. Even Israel says it is to get hostages returned. So, even the gov't of Israel is not claiming that withholding food and medical supplies is for defending themselves.

It's working. Hamas is in a dire financial position because they aren't stealing the aid anymore. And if people were starving we would see pictures.

If you want to end the violence and ethnic cleansing, get rid of the Muslim terrorists who run Gaza. That's not just Hamas, that's the Gazans Who Matter. The one's who keep Hamas in power. Also Hamas' international supporters, they are yet more Muslims who don't care about the little people in Gaza.
Tom

You keep babbling the mantra. No one knows how to get rid of the terrorists. Nothing seems to be effectively working. Even destroying the infrastructure, killing thousands of innocents, withholding food and supplies isn't working.

You keep babbling the Palestinian mantra and persist in demanding we look for the keys under the streetlight.

We recognize that no full solution is possible at present and look to what can be done. And the reality is that Israelis are safer when they use a heavy hand on the Palestinians. So long as that remains true you're going to see the heavy hand.

But, at least you admit there is ethnic cleansing, even if you are just fine with it.

We aren't fine with it. You keep supporting positions that lead to ethnic cleansing of Jews, though. Sounds like you need to look in a mirror.

 

[laughing dog]

Israel restricts access to Gaza.

Gazans are still holding kidnapped victims. They launched a missile barrage last month.

They keep the conflict going and pretend that the damage done to their human shields is the fault of Israel.
This is true and you know it.
Tom

Starving the populace to get hostages returned is not working. There is no reason to think it will work. Blaming Hamas for Israel’s choices in an attempt to hide the brutality of Israel’s pointless tactics is ironic virtue signalling.

BTW, Israel broke the ceasefire, which means they are keeping the violence going this time.

What should matter most at this point is that there is pointless suffering that is needlessly happening... and all over a perverse intention to harm. We know Hamas are reprehensible. That doesn't make it right.

So what should be done to free Gaza of Hamas?

While the world is figuring out how to achieve that impossible dream,, are you fine with the current policy of withholding food and medical supplies, so that more children are suffering from acute malnutrition?

You aren't addressing the point at all, merely regurgitating Hamas propaganda. If there really were that many in distress why are there no pictures? And why kids? Do the parents not care enough about their children?

I am going on reports from the BBC , the UN, and other reputable news sources.

For example In Private, Some Israel Officers is on the brink of starvation.

But Israeli military officers who monitor humanitarian conditions in Gaza have warned their commanders in recent days that unless the blockade is lifted quickly, many areas of the enclave will likely run out of enough food to meet minimum daily nutritional needs, according to the defense officials. They spoke on the condition of anonymity to share sensitive details.

Before there is starvation, there is malnutrition and acute malnutrition (which has long term effects on the babies, the very young and the old).

According to the WHO

Since the aid blockade began on 2 March, 57 children have reportedly died from the effects of malnutrition, according to the Ministry of Health.

If the situation persists, nearly 71,000 children under the age of five are expected to be acutely malnourished over the next 11 months.

Gaza: 57 children reported dead from malnutrition, says WHO
You are basing your replies on stuff you pull out of your ass.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I do not wish anyone to suffer malnutrition. But it is Hamas claiming this. We cannot trust anything Hamas says without independent verification. They will say or do anything to further themselves.

There is independent verification.

Really now, where? What remotely credible source exists? All reports out of Gaza should be presumed to be written by Hamas.

And there is a very simple confirmation: what do the people look like? Two months of no food would mean most would be dead--but that clearly isn't happening. Hamas doesn't even have anyone to parade in front of the camera. The absence of such reports is by far the most solid piece of information we have.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If you want to end the violence and ethnic cleansing, get rid of the Muslim terrorists who run Gaza. That's not just Hamas, that's the Gazans Who Matter. The one's who keep Hamas in power. Also Hamas' international supporters, they are yet more Muslims who don't care about the little people in Gaza.
Tom

You keep babbling the mantra. No one knows how to get rid of the terrorists. Nothing seems to be effectively working. Even destroying the infrastructure, killing thousands of innocents, withholding food and supplies isn't working.

So we, anyone stops fighting, defending ourselves against terrorists? Is that you are saying?

I responded to getting rid of terrorists, not failing to defend oneself. Nothing I wrote could reasonably interpreted to imply that. So no.

Wrong goal.

The geopolitical reality is that nothing can be done to get rid of them. Terrorists with an untouchable base of support are never defeated. Thus the objective should be to minimize the harm they cause.

 

[laughing dog]

While the world is figuring out how to achieve that impossible dream,, are you fine with the current policy of withholding food and medical supplies, so that more children are suffering from acute malnutrition?

In the meantime,
Can you explain your plan for rescuing Gazans Who Don't Matter from the ones who do? I don't see one.
Tom

At the end of this "meantime", there will be no innocents left to rescue innocent civilians, so no plan will be necessary. Of course, that is ethnic cleansing, if not outright genocide, but you seem fine with it.

Nope.
As long as you and the international community keep blaming Israel for defending itself and handwaving the real problem Gazans have, it's just going to get worse.

Withholding food and medical supplies is not defending oneself. Even Israel says it is to get hostages returned. So, even the gov't of Israel is not claiming that withholding food and medical supplies is for defending themselves.

It's working. Hamas is in a dire financial position because they aren't stealing the aid anymore. And if people were starving we would see pictures.

If you want to end the violence and ethnic cleansing, get rid of the Muslim terrorists who run Gaza. That's not just Hamas, that's the Gazans Who Matter. The one's who keep Hamas in power. Also Hamas' international supporters, they are yet more Muslims who don't care about the little people in Gaza.
Tom

You keep babbling the mantra. No one knows how to get rid of the terrorists. Nothing seems to be effectively working. Even destroying the infrastructure, killing thousands of innocents, withholding food and supplies isn't working.

You keep babbling the Palestinian mantra and persist in demanding we look for the keys under the streetlight.

We recognize that no full solution is possible at present and look to what can be done. And the reality is that Israelis are safer when they use a heavy hand on the Palestinians. So long as that remains true you're going to see the heavy hand.

But, at least you admit there is ethnic cleansing, even if you are just fine with it.

We aren't fine with it. You keep supporting positions that lead to ethnic cleansing of Jews, though. Sounds like you need to look in a mirror.

No, you aren't fine with but you support it while you babble Israeli propaganda.

 

[laughing dog]

If you want to end the violence and ethnic cleansing, get rid of the Muslim terrorists who run Gaza. That's not just Hamas, that's the Gazans Who Matter. The one's who keep Hamas in power. Also Hamas' international supporters, they are yet more Muslims who don't care about the little people in Gaza.
Tom

You keep babbling the mantra. No one knows how to get rid of the terrorists. Nothing seems to be effectively working. Even destroying the infrastructure, killing thousands of innocents, withholding food and supplies isn't working.

So we, anyone stops fighting, defending ourselves against terrorists? Is that you are saying?

I responded to getting rid of terrorists, not failing to defend oneself. Nothing I wrote could reasonably interpreted to imply that. So no.

Wrong goal.

The geopolitical reality is that nothing can be done to get rid of them. Terrorists with an untouchable base of support are never defeated. Thus the objective should be to minimize the harm they cause.

You need to take that up with the Israeli gov't, not me. You know, the one engaging in ethnic cleansing that you defend.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The first report is from doctors in Gaza. They are all violent Muslim terrorists?

The report is BBC. BBC consists of violent Muslim terrorists?

There is a fucking picture for you, close-up, of a starving child. Is she a violent Muslim terrorist? Or was the picture a product of violent Muslim AI?

The hospitals are staffed by Hamas. We have plenty of clearly staged reports from them, they are not a credible source.

The BBC is quite willing to parrot anything Hamas says. Thus they are not credible in this situation. Just look at that article:

Violent criminal gangs have been heavily implicated in stealing aid. Hamas is threatening violence against groups and individuals it accuses of theft.

The "violent criminal gangs" are Hamas.

And the UN certainly isn't.

As for the picture: Read the caption. She can't find the right type of formula. This isn't a general lack, but a lack of some specific thing--and there's no evidence the right thing even exists. Note that the article does not say what formula is needed--that would allow checking the facts.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel has banned international reporters from reporting from Gaza. Why do you think that would be, if they had nothing to hide? The story was reported by a BBC reporter who got in nevertheless — reporters are quite good at getting past restrictions. There are no violent Muslim terrorists here. There is the inescapable fact of unforgivable Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Got in, or simply repeated what Hamas told her?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It takes a peculiar mindset to call the young sufferers of acute malnutrition caused by the blockade of food in a ceasefire “human shields”.

Please explain your reasoning here. It's not like the people really have a choice, they are involuntary human shields. Thus there is nothing remotely incompatible between "baby" and "human shield".

But to admit that someone can be in both groups is to admit the evil that is Hamas.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It takes a peculiar mindset to call the young sufferers of acute malnutrition caused by the blockade of food in a ceasefire “human shields”.

It takes a bizarre mindset to call the current situation in Gaza a ceasefire.

It was a mutually accepted ceasefire until Israel violated it. Do you have any evidence Hamas is violating the terms of the ceasefire?

Last I recall Hamas broke the ceasefire by not complying with their side of the agreement.

Do you think that the Gazans who launched the missiles at Israel last month gave a rats ass about some hungry kids? Or do you think that they have more important things to do, like keep their grip on power?
Tom

Clearly they don’t, but how does that justify causing acute malnutrition among the children in Gaza.

1) Does the right formula even exist? The reality is that there are some who will die of malnutrition with the best of medical care.

2) Is there truly none in Gaza, or is it sitting in Hamas storage somewhere so she will starve for the cameras?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It takes a peculiar mindset to call the young sufferers of acute malnutrition caused by the blockade of food in a ceasefire “human shields”.

Please explain your reasoning here. It's not like the people really have a choice, they are involuntary human shields. Thus there is nothing remotely incompatible between "baby" and "human shield".

But to admit that someone can be in both groups is to admit the evil that is Hamas.

So bad, they are making others commit crimes against humanity.

 

[bilby]

If people were actually starving Hamas would have a gazillion pictures to show the world.

Not according to this guy. If Hamas produced a gazillion pictures, he would just dismiss them out of hand:

Really now, where? What remotely credible source exists? All reports out of Gaza should be presumed to be written by Hamas.

Nothing criticizing any Israeli action is true. We know this because Israel does nothing wrong. We know this, because nothing criticizing any Israeli action is true.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It is the result of the gov't of Israel's choice on how to respond to Hamas's hostage holding

And as usual,
The international supporters of Islamic terrorists blame Israel for responding to the violence of Gazans.

That's because Israel is responsible for her actions - just as everyone else is.

Being a victim of terrorism does not grant anyone a blank cheque to make an unlimited response.

The use of excessive force in response to a crime is itself a crime.

1) Look at our legal systems. You have a system that hobbles victims, requiring them to die rather than defending themselves. We have a more realistic standard: deadly force is deadly force. It does not have graduations. Nor does it require identifying specific threats--the actions of a group fall upon the entire group. We see this occasionally with protesters attacking vehicles--if a group comes after a car and one person does something that meets the deadly force threshold the driver is legally justified in flooring it even if other members of the group are in the way, even if the other members did not intend violence. Likewise, groups of robbers--one pulls a weapon, defenders may take action against anyone in the group.

2) This is war. Gaza attacked. Israel would be legally justified in going considerably further than they actually have. So long as Gaza doesn't surrender (and they never have) Israel may attack any military objectives and may totally siege the place. Medical aid is required to be allowed through unless it is being diverted--but it is being diverted, thus even this obligation does not exist.

You are a supporter of religious terrorists. I don't know how you can justify that to yourself!
Tom

You are a simpleton taking a childish binary view of a highly complex situation, and spouting unjustified and illogical conclusions about other people's more nuanced responses, without stopping to think about how utterly absurd your insulting and false accusations are.

You need to look in a mirror. You are taking the simplistic approach of innocent Gazan harmed, therefore Israel must be responsible.

If the referee calls a foul against your team, it is always possible that he is just doing his job, and is not in fact a supporter of your opponents, or a taker of their bribes.

Of course. But when the reality is that if you have a referee who has improperly called fouls against your team a hundred times you presume that the 101st is likewise wrong.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hamas supporters like the one's on this thread.
Tom

There are no Hamas supporters on this thread. Your infantile idea that opposing Israeli crimes implies support of Hamas crimes is both illogical and insulting, and you seriously need to grow the fuck out of it.

It's not a matter of opposing Israeli actions (note that almost never are "crimes" demonstrated, most things simply fall under war is hell), but taking Hamas propaganda as unquestionably true.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You are a supporter of religious terrorists. I don't know how you can justify that to yourself!
Tom

I don’t support terrorists of any sort.

That delicious irony of that slander overshadows its vileness.

Explain your repeated acceptance of Hamas propaganda without question.

 

[bilby]

1) Look at our legal systems.

Why?

You have a system that hobbles victims, requiring them to die rather than defending themselves.

No, we don't.

We have a more realistic standard: deadly force is deadly force. It does not have graduations. Nor does it require identifying specific threats--the actions of a group fall upon the entire group.

That's not "realistic", it's just "morally bankrupt".

We see this occasionally with protesters attacking vehicles--if a group comes after a car and one person does something that meets the deadly force threshold the driver is legally justified in flooring it even if other members of the group are in the way, even if the other members did not intend violence.

As I said, morally bankrupt. If person A threatens the life of person B, then person B is not justified in killing person C as a response.

Likewise, groups of robbers--one pulls a weapon, defenders may take action against anyone in the group.

Again, morally bankrupt.

But to return to my first point:

1) Look at our legal systems.

Why? What do the legal systems of my jurisdiction, or yours, have to do with those of either Israel or of Gaza?

The fact remains:

The use of excessive force in response to a crime is itself a crime.

And to the extent that it is not, the law is no longer morally justifiable. That's what "excessive" means.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

According to Reuters, Hamas released an American hostage. Great news. I think that we tend to forget about the hostages and forget the terror that they are receiving.

This is very damning--Hamas released a hostage for nothing in return. Qatar "brokered" the deal. But there's no deal, thus it must be something Qatar wanted. And Hamas gave up an important bargaining chip because Qatar wanted them to.

 

[bilby]

2) This is war. Gaza attacked.

Let's go back to page one:

Meh. Violence between Israel and Palestine is as unremarkable as was violence between Great Britain and the IRA during my youth.

Mo Mowlam has been dead for eighteen years. We need another of her calibre; But they're sadly very rare.

Meanwhile, both sides will continue to make "unprovoked" attacks on the other. And the dominant side will continue to deride their opponents as terrorists, while ignoring the fact that they themselves are acting like total arseholes.

Treating people as subhumans, and then acting all shocked at their barbarism when they hit back, is fucking pathetic.

The thread title is misleading nonsense, and I have never accepted it as a statement of fact. Both sides had plenty of provocation to fall back on to justify whatever they did next. The thing that shocked the world back in October of 2023 was not that Hamas attacked Israel, but that their attacks were successful.

That was very embarrassing for Likud and for Bibi himself, who were asleep at the switch.

But if we accept "This is war..." as justifying disproportionate violence (which I don't, but which is apparently what you are doing here), then what Hamas did was justified by the ongoing conflict that has raged since before Israel even existed as a modern nation state.

When you seek to justify immoral acts by your team, it would be wise for you to recall that goose sauce is also gander sauce.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

SH, the problem is that there have been claims of "famine" ever since the war started. And people in recent photos do not look emaciated. Even in photos from that NY Times article that makes claims of "famine".

Also, from the article:

Mr. el-Halabi said his daughter, who recently gave birth, was unable to breastfeed because she has not been eating enough. No baby formula is available, he said.

Why are people still have children in a war? Especially if you believe their claims of "famine", why would you bring additional mouths to feed into the world if you can't adequately feed yourself?

Think they have adequate birth control?

But note that famine does provide fair birth control--if a woman's body fat drops too low the system shuts down and conception is unlikely. Yet the birth rate remains high.