Legal definition of woman is based on biological sex, UK supreme court rules

[seanie]

Yes, but the thing is, trans women want to be accepted as women. And they deserve to be.

Well that’s fine in many, even most circumstances. But not all.

Because sometimes a person’s sex matters, not just for the individual, but to others. There are circumstances in which females are entitled to spaces free from males, for reasons of dignity, privacy, safety, or fairness.

And trans women are male.

They’re a subset of men, not a subset of women.

 

[Bomb#20]

...
I'm also a bit pragmatic, and I realize that if mixed-sex spaces were to overtake separate-sex facilities... a whole lot of women (actual females) would end up self-excluding from those spaces. ...

^^^^ This ^^^^

I know a woman who installed curtains in her car windows so she could go out to the parking lot to pee in privacy, because her workplace in its infinite wisdom decided to make the women's restroom "gender neutral".

There were no doors on the stalls?

I can't even.

 

[Bomb#20]

And what do you mean by the word “women” when you say that?

What does that category include/exclude?

Are you meaning “adult human females”, or “anyone who considers themselves a woman”?

Because those are different things.

Yes, they are, even though you seem to use them interchangeably.

Where have you ever seen him use them interchangeably?

I mean women as opposed to females. That includes women who used to men but are no longer men. That includes anyone who seriously and truthfully considers themselves a woman. It does not include males pretending to be women for ulterior purposes.

That's a circular definition.

 

[seanie]

That's a circular definition.

And very, very silly, too.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yes, but the thing is, trans women want to be accepted as women. And they deserve to be.

Well that’s fine in many, even most circumstances. But not all.

Because sometimes a person’s sex matters, not just for the individual, but to others. There are circumstances in which females are entitled to spaces free from males, for reasons of dignity, privacy, safety, or fairness.

I'm uncertain why you feel it is necessary to explain to Toni, repeatedly, that females are entitled to dignity.

And trans women are male.

In the sense that we restrict our understanding of what is involved in what makes us male/female. Many people are obsessed with the dangling bits, but there is a lot more to it. This insistence of demanding binary recognition in what is clearly not a binary layout is problematic.

What makes late transition transgender women playing in women's sports isn't because the person might have a penis.

 

[seanie]

Well, in the sense that they are indeed male.

And if you let a male into a female single sex space, it’s no longer single sex, is it?

And the sport angle was covered by my reference to fairness, and sometimes safety.

 

[ZiprHead]

...
I'm also a bit pragmatic, and I realize that if mixed-sex spaces were to overtake separate-sex facilities... a whole lot of women (actual females) would end up self-excluding from those spaces. ...

^^^^ This ^^^^

I know a woman who installed curtains in her car windows so she could go out to the parking lot to pee in privacy, because her workplace in its infinite wisdom decided to make the women's restroom "gender neutral".

There were no doors on the stalls?

I can't even.

Why not?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well, in the sense that they are indeed male.

Your adherence to labels is commendable, and part of the problem.

The issue is you keep going back and forth on what matters most, whether it is dangling bits or whether it is because "they are male". Dangling bits doesn't make competition in women sports unfair.

And if you let a male into a female single sex space, it’s no longer single sex, is it?

It depends. My objection to your statement is that you think transgenderism is a choice. And you minimize a transgender's right almost exclusively on that. You hedge all of this on a binary worldview that is overly simplistic and disregards that gender is more than genitals, completely disregarding the neurological aspects that guide individuals.

 

[seanie]

You’re the one obsessed with “dangly bits”.

Males who’ve had their genitalia removed don’t become female. They remain male.

The issue in women’s sport is fairness, and sometimes safety, not whether a particular male has been castrated.

And whether or not it is a choice is irrelevant.

It’s an objective fact that trans women are men.

 

[seanie]

And, I wish to stress, I’m not responsible sex in humans being binary.

It’s not my fault.

 

[laughing dog]

I’ve known a couple of men who went through the entire transformative process.
It was painful in many dimensions, but they emerged better people. They easily passed as cis women.

So men then.

Men who “pass” as women.

But still men.

Maybe men should be more accepting of other men who are gender non-conforming?

Accept them into male spaces?

Given that they are male?

Just a thought.

Since they aren’t men, think better.

In what way are men with gender identity issues not men?

More specifically, exactly what observable and verifiable characteristic to men with gender identity issues have in common with women in general, that they do NOT also have in common with men?

My answer was in the context of men who went through a complete transformation. When finished, they had no gender issues: they were women. So your first question is moot given the context.

For transwomen who have completed the transition, no penis is the obvious answer.

You might consider this a technicality, but I do not: They are not women, they look like women.

I agree they are not female, but they are women.

 

[laughing dog]

A female is not necessarily a woman. If you don't know the difference, you really have no business in this thread/

A sexually mature female human being is literally a woman.

A sexually mature female human being might not be figuratively a woman.

A sexually immature female is literally not a woman.

So, making spaces “women only” is false advertising if girls are allowed.

 

[laughing dog]

And, I wish to stress, I’m not responsible sex in humans being binary.

It’s not my fault.

Your persistence in a false claim is your fault.

 

[seanie]

What’s false about it?

 

[seanie]

I agree they are not female, but they are women.

So what definition are you using for “women”?

And what term should be used for humans who are both adult and female?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And whether or not it is a choice is irrelevant.

You keep bringing it up passive aggressively, so clearly you think it matters.

It’s an objective fact that trans women are men.

And platypus lay eggs and therefore are not mammals.

 

[seanie]

Of course I think a person’s sex matters in some situations.

Have you not been paying attention at all?

The question of whether or not it’s a choice, or whether it’s a sincere and truthful belief, is neither here nor there. Neither is relevant when comes to the circumstances where single sex spaces should be provided.

If you insist that male adults can be women, you’re going to have to explain why, as well as define your terms.

 

[Toni]

You’re the one obsessed with “dangly bits”.

Males who’ve had their genitalia removed don’t become female. They remain male.

The issue in women’s sport is fairness, and sometimes safety, not whether a particular male has been castrated.

And whether or not it is a choice is irrelevant.

It’s an objective fact that trans women are men.

Absolutely not! What we assign as male and what we assign as female is subjective and based on observable characteristics of genitalia present at birth. Even that is sometimes ambiguous and occasionally inaccurate.

It has been well established that if a particular gene migrates from one chromosome to the other, physical appearances will not align with how the individual develops as self.

Just because that’s a difficult concept and reality for you to understand or accept, does not make it any less reality.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

For myself, being in a bathroom or dressing room with a trans woman would not be much of a big deal but I won’t lie and say that I would not be startled to see an unexpected exposed penis or testicles.

I have used male facilities all my life, and I too would be startled to see an exposed penis or testicles. It's not something you routinely see in a men's room, inless you are actively trying to catch a glimpse, in which case you are likely to get your lights punched out.

Forgive me if I'm horribly ignorant... but have you never used a urinal? Or is it just that you haven't intentionally looked? My understanding is that the peni are certainly out there.

In most cases it would require intentional looking to see somebody else as urinals are typically approached close to straight on, meaning everything's hidden by the person at the urinal. However, given large restrooms there are often situations where the normal traffic path puts someone at a very low angle to a long wall of urinals.

 

[seanie]

A person’s sex is an objective fact which is, very reliably, correctly identified at birth.

In extremely rare cases a DSD may lead to a mistake in that identification, but every person with a DSD is male or female, and that can be objectively determined.