Legal definition of woman is based on biological sex, UK supreme court rules

[seanie]

They are women.

In exactly what way are males with gender identity issues women?

Transwomen who have undergone a complete transformation have no gender issues. The fact you have gender issues does not mean they have gender issues. It is demeaning to generalize in that fashion.

What do you mean by “complete transformation”?

Is the “complete transformation” to sincerely and truthfully believing themselves to be women?

 

[seanie]

And what do you mean by the word “women” when you say that?

What does that category include/exclude?

Are you meaning “adult human females”, or “anyone who considers themselves a woman”?

Because those are different things.

Yes, they are, even though you seem to use them interchangeably.

Where have you ever seen him use them interchangeably?

I mean women as opposed to females. That includes women who used to men but are no longer men. That includes anyone who seriously and truthfully considers themselves a woman. It does not include males pretending to be women for ulterior purposes.

That's a circular definition.

Show you work.

If the term women includes anyone who seriously and truthfully considers themselves a woman, what are they considering themselves to be?

What is meant by the term “woman” in that instance?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Who make the rules that the rest of us ( but not you) must follow. Someone acknowledged that a person with a female appearing body would likely not fare well in a men’s locker room. I’m guessing lot of gay guys don’t feel comfortable—with good reason! in a lot of male restrooms or locker rooms/showers.

Rapes by trans people in women's restrooms: zero.

 

[Emily Lake]

Why can’t we expect males to accept gender non-conforming males, and males who consider themselves to be female, into male spaces?

Because people like you lose your goddamned minds whenever you meet a trans person.

No, I don't. I get uncomfortable and feel intimidated when I run into a MALE person in an intimate space.

 

[Emily Lake]

Your turn: how do you make an accurate inference about someone's gender identity?

You ask them.

I'm envious of this world you live in where there are no bad people and nobody would ever lie about anything.

 

[seanie]

Rapes by trans people in women's restrooms: zero.

Yeah, we’ll ignore the sexual assault of a child.

 

[Emily Lake]

Because people like you lose your goddamned minds whenever you meet a trans per

I meet trans people frequently. It’s no problem to me at all. People can consider themselves to be whatever they believe.

Trying to push your government to persecute a class of people is not "in right mind" behavior.

Nobody is being persecuted. Stop with the inflammatory misinformation. Not giving males the special privilege of stomping women's boundaries into the ground so they can feel good is not fucking persectuion.

Anti-trans bigots think they're "polite" because they smile while they're signing away other people's rights.

As opposed to the trans activists who don't bother to smile at all while signing away women's rights, but somehow feel justified harassing, threatening, intimidating, and calling for fucking outright violence against women who don't kowtow to their desires?

I'll tell you quite frankly, I'd rather you kick me in the face than tell me what I'm "allowed" to identify as on my passport, and I'm cis.

I don't fucking care what you identify as on your passport. If you want to identify as a goddamned magical sorcery ensconced in a cactus on your passport and you can convince some government to let you do that, go for it.

You have a critical problem with comprehension of scale if you believe that you treat your trans neighbors decently. You do not. You disrespect and abuse them daily, on a much more fundamental level than name-calling could ever do.

Bullshit - you don't know how seanie treats anyone. You're making shit up out of thin air because you have no actual rational basis for fucking over women in your zeal to give men more special privileges.

And no doubt you think I am mean and radical and rude for taking offense!

No, I think you're mean and radical and rude because you're observably mean and radical and rude.

 

[Emily Lake]

The othrr thing that occurred to me is that we are expecting women to accept this and not be startled or alarmed or bothered... when the easier solution is for guys to not be fucking assholes and make male spaces intolerable to transgender women.

 

[Emily Lake]

But rights of different groups can clash, and that needs to be managed.

Where is the balance, here? Where is the "management"? The government tells you what it thinks you are, and you have no right to appeal. That's not weighing the rights of differing classes and communities and working out reasonable compromises. It's just theocratic authoritarianism, and the disenfranchisement of a minority class that is too small and harried to have meaningful representation in the government.

Your biology makes you what you are. The government isn;'t telling you what it thinks you are, it's observing reality.

Seriously, do you think that you should be able to tell the government that you're a billionaire extraterrestrial and they should just believe you and say "okay, here's your mansion"?

 

[Toni]

Saying that doesn't make it true.

The reason to select a black woman is because of what happened in the past. That's revenge. Period.

I am for including everyone. But look at Toni's words 5 quotes up--that's about excluding white males.

You see justice as revenge.

You see for one time! ONE SINGLE FUCKING TIME purposefully choosing from among a group of highly competent, highly qualified, highly accomplished black women instead of bunch of piddly ass white boys who wouldn’t have gotten anywhere without the color of their skin and what’s hanging between their legs plus their daddy’s money as…revenge?

Seriously?

What the hell do you call centuries of white men white men Uber Alles as?

Justice? Earned?

Is what all of that white boy power was supposed to do? Let women and black people know their place and that that place was cleaning up after white boys were done filling their plates? Or rather having their plates filled for them? You’re begrudging women and black people even the scraps after white boys bellies are full.

Just how much power do you think it would take to fill up that empty spot inside enough that you don’t think that giving a black woman a chance is something other than revenge?

Revenge would be burning the place down and your white ass hanging from the tree.

Women and people are just asking for their turn. A fair shot.

If it’s revenge you see then maybe, just maybe deep inside you recognize the injustice done to people who do not look like you for the sin of not looking like you.

That fear of revenge is maybe a tiny shred of guilt because you know it’s never been fair and you’re afraid that women and black folks—never mind a black woman—want to do to you what your kind has been doing to them all of these years.

That’s the thing about not being consumed with maintaining a position that you only have because the odds and the laws were always written to hand you the edge and not because you all the way earned it. You don’t really have confidence. Bullies don’t. They know they don’t deserve their power and they’re scared of what happens if they lose it. They’re scared their victims will take revenge the bullies believe they deserve.

Here’s the thing:

The best revenge is living your own life and letting those it bothers drown in their own hate and insecurity.

You are doing nothing to dispel the notion that it's revenge. You speak of taking turns--but there are no turns. Each person faces it once. The only way you can take turns is by lumping people with those who share some attribute. And that's discrimination.

I do not believe in <insert group> rights. Rights are possessed by individuals. And it's just as wrong to exclude someone because they are white as because they are black.

But your assumption is that the white person, especially if male, earned the right.

A person of color could only have gotten a right by excluding white persons from consideration.

In the US, rights are supposed to be equal among all persons.

Some persons were excluded in the beginning of the US, because of convenience and custom.

Later we grew up a bit. Took a war for some of it. Some of it still is not de facto despite de jure.

Now, it is quite possible that there will be another war to make manifest the equality promised. I truly hope not.

I hope that reasonable people will do what is necessary to assure that all people are afforded equal access to opportunity. Sometimes, it will be necessary for those of us who have been given and who have earned so much to step aside for those who gave less to have their chance(s).

Those who don’t are not really better than Trump fir whom everything is not enough.

 

[laughing dog]

They are women.

In exactly what way are males with gender identity issues women?

Transwomen who have undergone a complete transformation have no gender issues. The fact you have gender issues does not mean they have gender issues. It is demeaning to generalize in that fashion.

What do you mean by “complete transformation”?

Physically, psychologically and emotionally .

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I do not live in India and I do not believe in a caste system which even India is in theory attempting to abolish. But bigotry is difficult to root out wherever one is.

He was using "caste" in a more general sense, not in regard to the Indian system.

I think it IS a basic human right to be treated under the law without regard to skin color, race, religion, sex, gender, sexual orientation, country of origin. This includes access to education, health care, employment, housing, and marriage and marital status.

And we agree on this.

A lot of people believe that affirmative action or DEI policies need to be eliminated as no longer being necessary or as counter productive. I think there can be an argument made for this but my observations IRL do not agree. And I live in a somewhat blue state in a university town. I hear too much from friends who are professors at public universities about being targeted and their fitness questioned by students based in the way they look: that is, not white. Not things that happened 20 years ago but this that happened this academic year.

Sure it's because of skin color? What specifically are they saying about the professors?

One obvious bit of evidence ( not my observation,) is the current administration’s scrubbing of mentions of the history of non-white males from mention in various institutions and, for example, the nomination and confirmation of people such as Pete Hegseth who sports white nationalist tattoos and expresses the opinion that women and non-straight, non-cis individuals do not belong in the military while scrubbing their mention from military academies.

And this is supposed to be evidence?! Yeah, we elected a bunch of Nazis--I'm sure discrimination is going to return and in a big way. Once again, though, it comes down to time. You are using events from other times as evidence for the current situation.

Yes it IS because of skin color and a not fully midwestern American accent—although impeccable English. Nor European names, although ones family name is very Greek. That’s just unusual around here. In all cases, the persons I’m referring to have spoken English their entire lives. They studied at English speaking universities, did their research, wrote their dissertations in English. Their English is at least as good as mine.

One was asked —this past academic year—if they were sure they belonged here. Multiple individuals have had students report them as being too difficult to understand , which is so absolutely ridiculous that I’m spluttering again/still as I write those words. Admin was supportive but still, it happens.

I don't know the people involved but I certainly have run into the too difficult to understand problem. It was more a matter of words than accent, though. It never occurred to me to complain, especially as the real problem was the guy didn't know his material. I only needed to understand enough to figure out what he got wrong so I could put the "right" answers on the tests. (Simple illustration, first class. He was rambling, got asked a question. He gave a non-answer, rambled back to where he was. Rinse and repeat. Third time around someone else piped up with a one word answer. This was a 400 level class, I'm sure everyone in the room except the professor knew the answer, it was just his speech was so confusing the one person got lost.)

And all of that would disappear if they were blonde and blue eyed.

Your last paragraph is simply inconsistent nonsense. I won’t bother even trying.

Nonsense? No. I'm saying you keep arguing about present discrimination using evidence of past discrimination. And bringing up the current atrocity is using expected future discrimination as evidence of present discrimination.

 

[Emily Lake]

Yes, but the thing is, trans women want to be accepted as women. And they deserve to be.

I want to be accepted as a billionaire. I think I deserve to be.

 

[Emily Lake]

The issue is you keep going back and forth on what matters most, whether it is dangling bits or whether it is because "they are male". Dangling bits doesn't make competition in women sports unfair.

Do subjective unverifiable feelings inside someone's head make competition in women's sports fair?

 

[Emily Lake]

A female is not necessarily a woman. If you don't know the difference, you really have no business in this thread/

A sexually mature female human being is literally a woman.

A sexually mature female human being might not be figuratively a woman.

A sexually immature female is literally not a woman.

So, making spaces “women only” is false advertising if girls are allowed.

Context being abused by wankers is going to be the downfall of civilization.

 

[laughing dog]

Yes, but the thing is, trans women want to be accepted as women. And they deserve to be.

I want to be accepted as a billionaire. I think I deserve to be.

Let us know how and when you rejected by others as a billionaire.

 

[Emily Lake]

And whether or not it is a choice is irrelevant.

You keep bringing it up passive aggressively, so clearly you think it matters.

It’s an objective fact that trans women are men.

And platypus lay eggs and therefore are not mammals.

Live birth is not part of the DEFINITION for mammals.

Mammal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Mammals are characterised by the presence of milk-producing mammary glands for feeding their young, a broad neocortex region of the brain, fur or hair, and three middle ear bones.

 

[laughing dog]

Why can’t we expect males to accept gender non-conforming males, and males who consider themselves to be female, into male spaces?

Because people like you lose your goddamned minds whenever you meet a trans person.

No, I don't. I get uncomfortable and feel intimidated when I run into a MALE person in an intimate space.

Why exactly is it the male person’s problem and not your?

 

[Emily Lake]

For what it's worth,
I try to stick with female when describing a person's sex. Woman is describing their gender. You've blurred that line a few times, although I don't think it matters much in context. Language and culture norms are very slow to change.

I hear you. Now please hear me.

What's the word for an adult female horse?
What's the word for an adult female chicken?
What's the word for an adult female bovine?
What's the word for an adult female fox?
What's the word for an adult female goat?


What's the word for an adult female human?

 

[Politesse]

I'm envious of this world you live in where there are no bad people and nobody would ever lie about anything.

Oh, I definitely don't think that.