The Case for Christianity

[pood]

T

And, let me correct something that Bilby said. Religion is still very much alive in the Northern US. It's just not as deeply ingrained in the culture as it is in the South. In the South we have expressions like "have a blessed day"and "God bless you"

I think “have a blessed day” is quite charming. Here in New York City, the more general term is, “Fuck you, you fucking fuck.” It’s even printed on T-shirts.

What part of NYC? I came from Jamaica in Queens. Then Lynbrook and Rackaway. Then Stamford.

Remember the Fillmore East by any chance?

That was way before my time. I grew up in Detroit, lived for years in San Francisco, and moved to NYC in 1995. I know of the Fillmore East, though. I think it was called the church of rock.

 

[pood]

T

And, let me correct something that Bilby said. Religion is still very much alive in the Northern US. It's just not as deeply ingrained in the culture as it is in the South. In the South we have expressions like "have a blessed day"and "God bless you"

I think “have a blessed day” is quite charming. Here in New York City, the more general term is, “Fuck you, you fucking fuck.” It’s even printed on T-shirts.

I agree. A close friend of mine is on her way today to visit New York City for the first time in her life and I told her to be prepared for culture shock. I have no problem with the expression, "Have a blessed day." I've told my atheist friends that we can think of it as secular blessings. One time when I was visiting New York City with family members, an older woman walked by and said to us, "Damn Tourists"

NYCers call tourists “mall walkers,” the least vulgar of various epithets, because New Yorkers are always in a big hurry for some reason or other and the tourists stroll five or six abreast, blocking the charging natives.

. I guess she was upset because we were trying to read the menu outside of a restaurant. i ignored her, but wanted to tell her that NYC would be in a lot of trouble if it wasn't for the damn tourists.

Quite true.

I grew up so close to the city that I could see the Empire State Building from my bedroom window, so I'm familiar with the culture, although the fuck you shirts weren't around when I was a kid. That would have upset my mother who used to tell us that hearing those words were like cutting her with a knife.

The fuck you shirts are all over the place now. A lot of them can be found in the plentiful gift shops in Chinatown, where I often am. Unfortunately the shops also sell MAGA hats and even MAGA hats with orange wigs attached to them.

One time I had a group of humanist friends over for dinner and I shocked them by telling them I wanted to say the blessing before we ate. My blessing was this: "Since the sharing of food is a Human Universal found in all known cultures, it's with great pleasure that I have the privilege to share food with all of you this evening". They seemed to like my blessing.

I like that very much.

 

[Brunswick1954]

Finally, I think I'm getting through. There's a truth in our discourse that we need to get to. I'm not saying that anything, like believing in fairies, is true since we're not judging reality through the lens of science. But I am saying that God is, to me, as true as, if not even more true than, science. So, bear with me.

I will agree with NHC, and most of you, that, as it stands, the Bible and much of religious doctrines are difficult to accept when we approach them as historical facts and argue over those nonsense. Take for example, the argument between creationists and evolution. I suggest that in neither side is the matter fully resolved. The evidence points towards evolution but not in the same way as the kind of evidence that supports Newton’s Laws or even Relativity. Even in science, we often accept certain laws even if we don't quite understand it and see it as paradoxical. Many scientific hypothesis are tentative, until proven wrong.

We need to open our minds to alternative viewpoints if we are to get to God. We cannot ask for God to be defined in a way that we can understand scientifically. The God of the Bible does not fit into any category. So, what or who is God and how can we find out for ourselves if He's real or not?

It's not going to be easy to explain. If you really want to know, I really want to share my experience and understanding. But we won't get very far if you jump at everything you find challenging.

As I suggested earlier, we need to look at life itself and ask what it means and how can we get closer to understanding it. I may have used this example before but never mind. Eric Clapton is a Christian. His son died in a terrible accident and broken-hearted, he wrote a beautiful song, Tears in Heaven, to address and cope with his loss.

The song presumes the existence of God and Heaven and that presumption enables him not just to accept his son's death but to move on with his own. Notice the tension, he is able to move on and yet mourn the death of his son deeply. He didn't have to forget nor give up on his own life. He could even continue to love his son and look forward to meeting him again. His son's death made it even more urgent that he lives his own life well.

I think we need to look at this carefully. Is God real to Eric Clapton? In a way, God is more real and more important to him than the reality he lives in. God is his answer to life. For many believers, including me, the answer to suffering is God. We don't know why God allows suffering, but we find comfort in believing that God exists and He is a loving God who will solve everything. Not only that, when I started to believe, I saw reality in a different way.

I'll share my own perspective here. The Design Hypothesis that God must exist because our universe, as explained by science, is so well designed has been forwarded elsewhere and a common argument that many Christian scientists use. I agree with this but it might help if I explain it differently. I think that science reveals a part of God's mind, but not all of it. With each new revelation in science, I see evidence of a mind so far ahead of us and yet so much like us that I am blown away. Many scientists are scientists for this very reason, that science is able to penetrate deeply into the universe and the universe it unfolds is both entirely logical and yet mysterious, if not magical. Many scientists, like Carl Sagan, are blown away looking at the night sky. Unfortunately, he could only see the science of the sky but not God, who created it.

If I have to define God, for me, God is Divine Intelligence. He is like us but so far beyond us that just contemplating his existence blows my mind. I see this Intelligence in every part of my life and in the universe. And when I ask myself, what my life is all about, I am inescapably drawn to the conclusion that my life is a gift from God and that he has a plan for me and that my purpose on this earth is to follow this plan. I came to this conclusion from a "scientific" angle. I was struggling with my life, it didn't seem to make sense. Some might call it my mid-life crisis. I talked to counsellors, read self-help books, read up on religion and philosophy, and with each step, I am drawn to the conclusion that God exists. Not just any God but the Christian God, as portrayed in the Bible. More amazingly, this God of the Bible, that is the cause of so many disputes, is as angry about religion as the strongest atheist. I realised that He is indeed God of all, the very kind of God I demanded of Him.

But of course, this is all very subjective and my understanding of God is not the true picture of God. It's a bit like an ant trying to understand Albert Einstein. And using that understanding to explain general relativity. So, how can I share my journey? How can I explain, to myself, what I am experiencing? Who can I talk to? It's very difficult to believe in something and not be able to talk to anyone about it. Talking to Christians can be quite frustrating, as many of you have found out. I'm hoping I can talk to you guys.

 

[bilby]

We need to open our minds to alternative viewpoints

Sure

if we are to get to God.

Why would that be our objective? Surely we should follow the evidence with an open mind, and see where it leads? If that is to a God, then so be it - but why would we start with that objective in mind? That's the very definition of closed mindedness.

Are you open to the possibility that there are no Gods to find.

We cannot ask for God to be defined in a way that we can understand scientifically.

Why not?

The God of the Bible does not fit into any category.

I disagree. "nonexistent" and "fictional" are both categories.

So, what or who is God and how can we find out for ourselves if He's real or not?

Well, we could start by not assuming that He is real before we even begin.

 

[bilby]

It's not going to be easy to explain. If you really want to know, I really want to share my experience and understanding. But we won't get very far if you jump at everything you find challenging.

Translation: I want to preach, and I want you to listen without asking questions when I do, because if you start asking questions, you probably won't believe me.

Your experience might be interesting, but your claim of understanding is dubious at best. If you do understand something that the rest of us do not, then answering the difficult questions would be an excellent way to demonstrate that understanding.

If you start out by refusing to be questioned, then few people here are going to accept that you understand any of this stuff.

 

[Elixir]

We need to open our minds to alternative viewpoints if we are to get to God.

Why would that be our objective?

You get to God, the rest of 'em will fall in line.
You're not getting any special favors if you don't have leverage.

But seriously - how many "alternatives" to whatever god theists subscribe to, are actually entertained by those theists?
I think they are mostly stuck in the duality "my god either exists or doesn't exist, and it's obvious to me that the former is the case".
They rarely entertain the possibility that their god might not only not exist, but also the alternative that their god doesn't exist AND Cthulhu is real?

 

[bilby]

The Design Hypothesis that God must exist because our universe, as explained by science, is so well designed has been forwarded elsewhere and a common argument that many Christian scientists use. I agree with this

...and thereby disprove your claim to understanding.

That hypothesis is demonstrably false, and the evidence against it is massive and multifaceted. It's not just wrong, it's wrong on a huge number of independent counts.

 

[bilby]

If I have to define God, for me, God is Divine Intelligence. He is like us but so far beyond us that just contemplating his existence blows my mind. I see this Intelligence in every part of my life and in the universe. And when I ask myself, what my life is all about, I am inescapably drawn to the conclusion that my life is a gift from God and that he has a plan for me and that my purpose on this earth is to follow this plan. I came to this conclusion from a "scientific" angle.

No, you didn't.

I was struggling with my life, it didn't seem to make sense. Some might call it my mid-life crisis. I talked to counsellors, read self-help books, read up on religion and philosophy, and with each step, I am drawn to the conclusion that God exists. Not just any God but the Christian God, as portrayed in the Bible.

See? Not scientific; Emotional. You came to your conclusion via feelings, not via observation. And you interpreted any subsequent observations through the biased perspective forced by that conclusion.

But of course, this is all very subjective and my understanding of God is not the true picture of God.

You. So, you even admit that you didn't come "to this conclusion from a "scientific" angle", but rather from a subective angle - the antithesis of scientific methodology.

I wonder whether you contradicted yourself wirhout realising it, or whether you did so because you don't really know what "scientific" means, and just guessed that it maybe includes your emotion based hunches?

 

[Elixir]

The Design Hypothesis that God must exist because our universe, as explained by science, is so well designed has been forwarded elsewhere and a common argument that many Christian scientists use. I agree with this

...and thereby disprove your cliam to understanding.

That hypothesis is demonstrably false, and the evidence against it is massive and multifaceted. It's not just wrong, it's wrong on a huge number of independent counts.

OMFG, one might as well argue that OMFG proves god must exist because there HE is right there at the end of OMFG. Or that the idea that the 2020 election was stolen is so well designed, has been forwarded elsewhere and is a common argument, so it must be true.
("cliams" notwithstanding )

I know it sounds dismissive, and that is not my intent, or the point, really. But these arguments from incredulity, intelligent design, irreducible complexity etc. are ALL variants of gods of the gaps and it angers me that our systems have been unable or unwilling to educate people on how to realize stuff like that through the application of logic to known, verifiable, repeatable observations, and recognize conclusion not based on such things. Sure, it's appropriate to assign probabilities to things that might be the case ever since the first grass waving in a breeze made someone think it was a lion. But searching for things that need a god to explain, is just stupid. Unexplained things are everywhere. They don't raise the probability of gods whatsoever. They're just gaps where many of us wish gods were hiding.

"Don't let your mind be so open your brain falls out" seems to be forgotten wisdom.

 

[bilby]

("cliams" notwithstanding )

I have a Black Belt in Thai-poh

 

[Elixir]

("cliams" notwithstanding )

I have a Black Belt in Thai-poh

Bring it on. I have defensive training Fey-Spahlm!

 

[pood]

So much to attend to here. Just a brief note: Newton’s laws are strictly false. Evolution theory is robustly supported.

The universe is not well “designed” for life. It is badly designed. The vast majority of it is a quantum vacuum. As Richard Carrier has noted, it seems well designed for the production of black holes.

 

[bilby]

So much to attend to here. Just a brief note: Newton’s laws are strictly false. Evolution theory is robustly supported.

The universe is not well “designed” for life. It is badly designed. The vast majority of it is a quantum vacuum. As Richard Carrier has noted, it seems well designed for the production of black holes.

Yeah, if the universe is designed, then it surely isn't designed for humans. Most of the universe (all of it, really, apart from the Solar System, which is a minuscule rounding error in the galaxy, much less the universe) has exactly no influence on humans at all.

Hell, even the majority of the objects in the Solar System have zero influence on humans. And essentially all of the volume of the Solar System is utterly inimical to human life. Shit, the majority of the planet Earth is so hostile to humans that we ignore it, and focus on a thin layer of surface between atmosphere and land, or atmosphere and ocean; And even that planetary surface environment is mostly deadly to unprepared and/or unprotected humans.

If the universe is designed for humans, it is an unimaginably inefficient design. It makes the Triganic Pu look like an efficient design for a low denomination coin.

 

[Elixir]

The universe is not well “designed” for life. It is badly designed. The vast majority of it is a quantum vacuum. As Richard Carrier has noted, it seems well designed for the production of black holes.

I love that quote, but have a different view of what "badly designed" means.
Evolution is brilliant IMHO. God's greatest Creation. (I have no better idea than "God" for what preceded the BB)
Life existing at all is no trivial thing. In a badly designed universe, life would never persist, even rarely, let alone have time to evolve into sentient beings. The copious use of quantum vacuum doesn't bother me, even if it represents some kind of eco-disaster in an adjacent universe.

f the universe is designed for humans, it is an unimaginably inefficient design.

It ISN'T "designed', though, it works by brute force. Shit just happens. So much shit happens that just about everything happens, over the course of billions of years. It couldn't possibly be less "efficient", or more effective!

 

[pood]

The universe is not well “designed” for life. It is badly designed. The vast majority of it is a quantum vacuum. As Richard Carrier has noted, it seems well designed for the production of black holes.

I love that quote, but have a different view of what "badly designed" means.
Evolution is brilliant IMHO. God's greatest Creation. (I have no better idea than "God" for what preceded the BB)
Life existing at all is no trivial thing. In a badly designed universe, life would never persist, even rarely, let alone have time to evolve into sentient beings. The copious use of quantum vacuum doesn't bother me, even if it represents some kind of eco-disaster in an adjacent universe.

f the universe is designed for humans, it is an unimaginably inefficient design.

It ISN'T "designed', though, it works by brute force. Shit just happens. So much shit happens that just about everything happens, over the course of billions of years. It couldn't possibly be less "efficient", or more effective!

Yeah, that is just it. The universe is meaningless and mindless and yet complexity arises from simplicity. It’s the “grandeur” that Darwin spoke of in the climax to Origin. The fact that mindless processes over time can produce meaning-seeking creatures like us is deeply impressive and dare I say, spiritual.

 

[bilby]

I have no better idea than "God" for what preceded the BB

OK; But do you have a worse one?

If the BB singularity marks the beginning of time, then saying that God preceded the singularity is like saying that Santa lives North of the North Pole - there is no "preceded" when we are talking about the beginning of time.

 

[James Brown]

It would be refreshing to hear a Christian say I understand it is not pro0able but I believe in god, Jesus, and the bible...I have faith.

I maintained that position for a while.

Less than a year later, I came out as an atheist.

 

[pood]

Finally, I think I'm getting through. There's a truth in our discourse that we need to get to. I'm not saying that anything, like believing in fairies, is true since we're not judging reality through the lens of science. But I am saying that God is, to me, as true as, if not even more true than, science. So, bear with me.

I will agree with NHC, and most of you, that, as it stands, the Bible and much of religious doctrines are difficult to accept when we approach them as historical facts and argue over those nonsense. Take for example, the argument between creationists and evolution. I suggest that in neither side is the matter fully resolved. The evidence points towards evolution but not in the same way as the kind of evidence that supports Newton’s Laws or even Relativity. Even in science, we often accept certain laws even if we don't quite understand it and see it as paradoxical. Many scientific hypothesis are tentative, until proven wrong.

We need to open our minds to alternative viewpoints if we are to get to God. We cannot ask for God to be defined in a way that we can understand scientifically. The God of the Bible does not fit into any category. So, what or who is God and how can we find out for ourselves if He's real or not?

It's not going to be easy to explain. If you really want to know, I really want to share my experience and understanding. But we won't get very far if you jump at everything you find challenging.

As I suggested earlier, we need to look at life itself and ask what it means and how can we get closer to understanding it. I may have used this example before but never mind. Eric Clapton is a Christian. His son died in a terrible accident and broken-hearted, he wrote a beautiful song, Tears in Heaven, to address and cope with his loss.

The song presumes the existence of God and Heaven and that presumption enables him not just to accept his son's death but to move on with his own. Notice the tension, he is able to move on and yet mourn the death of his son deeply. He didn't have to forget nor give up on his own life. He could even continue to love his son and look forward to meeting him again. His son's death made it even more urgent that he lives his own life well.

I think we need to look at this carefully. Is God real to Eric Clapton? In a way, God is more real and more important to him than the reality he lives in. God is his answer to life. For many believers, including me, the answer to suffering is God. We don't know why God allows suffering, but we find comfort in believing that God exists and He is a loving God who will solve everything. Not only that, when I started to believe, I saw reality in a different way.

I'll share my own perspective here. The Design Hypothesis that God must exist because our universe, as explained by science, is so well designed has been forwarded elsewhere and a common argument that many Christian scientists use. I agree with this but it might help if I explain it differently. I think that science reveals a part of God's mind, but not all of it. With each new revelation in science, I see evidence of a mind so far ahead of us and yet so much like us that I am blown away. Many scientists are scientists for this very reason, that science is able to penetrate deeply into the universe and the universe it unfolds is both entirely logical and yet mysterious, if not magical. Many scientists, like Carl Sagan, are blown away looking at the night sky. Unfortunately, he could only see the science of the sky but not God, who created it.

If I have to define God, for me, God is Divine Intelligence. He is like us but so far beyond us that just contemplating his existence blows my mind. I see this Intelligence in every part of my life and in the universe. And when I ask myself, what my life is all about, I am inescapably drawn to the conclusion that my life is a gift from God and that he has a plan for me and that my purpose on this earth is to follow this plan. I came to this conclusion from a "scientific" angle. I was struggling with my life, it didn't seem to make sense. Some might call it my mid-life crisis. I talked to counsellors, read self-help books, read up on religion and philosophy, and with each step, I am drawn to the conclusion that God exists. Not just any God but the Christian God, as portrayed in the Bible. More amazingly, this God of the Bible, that is the cause of so many disputes, is as angry about religion as the strongest atheist. I realised that He is indeed God of all, the very kind of God I demanded of Him.

But of course, this is all very subjective and my understanding of God is not the true picture of God. It's a bit like an ant trying to understand Albert Einstein. And using that understanding to explain general relativity. So, how can I share my journey? How can I explain, to myself, what I am experiencing? Who can I talk to? It's very difficult to believe in something and not be able to talk to anyone about it. Talking to Christians can be quite frustrating, as many of you have found out. I'm hoping I can talk to you guys.

You started earlier by saying the Christianity supported science. Then, later, you said we need to step down from the “pulpit” of science, as if science were a religion, and return to a pre-scientific world view to reach God. Now you are saying you came to your beliefs from a “scientific” angle, the very thing you said we needed to step away from. Your own argument, such as it is, is internally inconsistent.

There is no “case” here for a God, still less the Christian variant. You’ve offered no scientific evidence, and no philosophical argument. Anselm did that centuries ago with his Ontological Argument, but practically no one thinks it is successful.

You raised the problem of evil in the OP, and returned to it here, but did not solve it. You’ve essentially hand-waved it away with the old standby, “God works in mysterious ways,” through you did not use those precise words. God, you say, has a plan for us all.

What plan did God have for little children who die of brain cancer?

In The Brothers Karamazov, Ivan Karamazov said the suffering of children would induce him to “return his ticket” to heaven.

Since you have neither argument nor evidence, why not just believe on faith alone? Certainly the bible says to do that: “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

Now, to me, that sounds an awful lot like the modern, “Who ya gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?”

 

[pood]

And the triune God reminds of the old Three Stooges episode in which they portray a three-man law firm, the name being, Dewey, Cheatam and Howe.

 

[steve_bank]

It would be refreshing to hear a Christian say I understand it is not pro0able but I believe in god, Jesus, and the bible...I have faith.

I maintained that position for a while.

Less than a year later, I came out as an atheist.

This is the way I put it.

A foundational prijnciple of western liberal democracy is the right to choose beliefs of any kind, with actions bonded by civil law. And the right of free association.

If somebody believes in a god or a region and it improves the quality of their life, who am I to say it is wrong?

Take away gods and pop culture acts just like religion for many people. Music icons can have a cult like following. Fans derive a personal identity and lifestyle from pop cloture icons.

f you want to be objective you can't isolate religion from the rest of the culture. Region is one manifestation of a human attribute that has many form of expression.

I am atheist, and I do not require anyone else to change to become atheist.